The Problem with the Pocket Dimension Star Feats

[Hellbeast1]

Depends, is it PIS?

 

[Konaguna]

If the universe farter gets rekt by a 9-B then it an outlier bruh

Or they just that strong

 

[DarkGrath]

Not unless you can spawn big bangs in your opponent's face, or similar.

Remember, AP and Durability, with very few exceptions, are usually considered the same. If Character 1 created a universe, and Character 2 kills them (making a few assumptions, like how it's not an outlier for them and such) then Character 2 has enough AP to overcome their durability. Character 1 wouldn't neccessarily have to have created big bangs in Character 2's face for Character 2 to be scaled to Universe level here.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

It seems like in most fiction the act of creating a pocket dimension gets presented in a very glass cannon-y way.

 

[DarkGrath]

It seems like in most fiction the act of creating a pocket dimension gets presented in a very glass cannon-y way.

What makes you say that?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

The fact that in a lot of series (with Castlevania once again being the main example) a character creating a cosmic-sized pocket dimension that collapses when they die never seems to indicate that they are in fact a cosmic entity in terms of durability.

like I said earlier, it seems more reasonable to assume that if a character with mostly 9-A showings kills a pocket-dimension-creator and collapses it, it just means that the dimension has a weakpoint with 9-A durability, not that said character is 9-A.

Kind of like how Shirou Emiya is not universe level despite creating a universe of infinite swords from his being. He's still High 7-A via only showing that level of strength and fighting people on that level.

I think that should be the default assumption with pocket realities.

 

[DarkGrath]

The fact that in a lot of series (with Castlevania once again being the main example) a character creating a cosmic-sized pocket dimension that collapses when they die never seems to indicate that they are in fact a cosmic entity in terms of durability.
like I said earlier, it seems more reasonable to assume that if a character with mostly 9-A showings kills a pocket-dimension-creator and collapses it, it just means that the dimension has a weakpoint with 9-A durability, not that said character is 9-A.

Kind of like how Shirou Emiya is not universe level despite creating a universe of infinite swords from his being. He's still High 7-A via only showing that level of strength and fighting people on that level.

I think that should be the default assumption with pocket realities.

The case of Shirou Emiya wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with the disparity between his Ap and Durability. If he's normally only around High 7-A in strength, then the universe feat he performed is just an outlier. Again, it has nothing to do with him being a glass cannon.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yes, and considering how big of a jump a pocket dimension feat often is from the rest of a series' feats, I think they should also be considered outliers by default.

Especially if the dimension-maker is killed by a protag with no other showings remotely near the level of the creation feat.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yes, and considering how big of a jump a pocket dimension feat often is from the rest of a series' feats, I think they should also be considered outliers by default.
Especially if the dimension-maker is killed by a protag with no other showings remotely near the level of the creation feat.

I understand your point of view, but considering all pocket dimension feats to be outliers by default is an absolutely massive jump in logic. Especially since characters who create dimensions are shown to almost always pull off lesser feats very casually. I could go into more detail about it, but surely it is reasonable to say that a character should not be based off of their casual feats. If a character kicked down a wall very casually and they had a bunch of less casual feats to be based off of, why would they be considered 9-B? That's an arbitrary example of course, but you surely understand my point here.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I do definitely get your point, and like I said, it's just my opinion.

I think my main problem is I'm generalizing too much, when I'm just interested in resolving this issue with Castlevania, specifically. That's the only verse where I currently have a problem with their scaling.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, I understand. Admittedly, I don't actually know all too much about Castlevania, especially in comparison to other universes with debatable dimension feats. So, I get what you mean.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I'm also not sure if I should be debating that specific example here, or wait 'til this is resolved and then bring it up separately (probably the latter)

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, judging by reactions, I would say that most people on here are thinking of Castlevania when they think of pocket dimension feats, so I think it's still fair to discuss, so long as it isn't the only thing mentioned.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Alright. I do think I'll wait a bit for more input though.

(I also have recently started having problems with the Judgement feats as well, and that'll definitely be a risky discussio)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We can't just judge every pocket dimension feat as outliers; especially if they do it all the time and the lore treats them as a feat of power.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why not try and find where it's treated as a show of power then, rather than assuming all of them are shows of power by default?

Not that it really matters though; we've already decided on this anyways.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Never said all of them are feats of power; only that they are often treated as such and that disregarding all of them entirely is what isn't an option. We use in depth lore and case by case like we always do.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We decided to treat them as shows of power by default though.

The only cases where it isn't if if it's an outlier, which doesn't technically invalidate the feat, or if we can't show that the character didn't just teleport the person into an already existing dimension.

Nor do I advocate for disregarding all of them but eh.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Never said all of them are feats of power; only that they are often treated as such and that disregarding all of them entirely is what isn't an option. We use in depth lore and case by case like we always do.

You still haven't given an example.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For example, that pocket realities in Castlevania are easily legit. There is scientific information about them being Quantum spaces that expand numerous light years, and the characters do consistently shake those realms and also destroy them in the process. So 4-A Castlevania is legit.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

When does it ever say that they expand lightyears?

It calls the paintings quantum spaces, but also says they just reflect the whims of the painter, meaning the backgrounds and the physics inside are just being dreamed up and probably don't even reflect real physics or expand out into full solar system space

Dracula's backgrounds are also inconsistent and are never even called quantum spaces, and they're the ones that show starry and black hole-like imagery.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"it could be an illusion" is just a really pedantic argument that could apply to anything without evidence. I think that Occam's Razor slices up the whole "it's just luminous dots".

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"it could be an illusion" is just a really pedantic argument that could apply to anything without evidence. I think that Occam's Razor slices up the whole "it's just luminous dots".

That only really applies when we aren't given any stated limits on the reality. If the ground area ends at certain points the sky can't possibly be real, or at least encompass the vast scope and space and size they do in real life as we're already limited to an area orders upon orders of magnitude smaller than that.

This also disregards verses that have very loose definitions of what constitutes a "star" and "planet", which might have unrealistically small sizes for them. Think Mario Galaxy.

But sure, if we have literally no other info on the pocket dimension, we would assume that.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It is important that we reach some form of conclusion here. Perhaps you could ask several knowledgeable administrators and bureaucrats to help out via their message walls?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Most of the issues the OP brought up are pretty much finished in discussion here, we just flipped into discussing how to actually quantify the feats themselves and flew to another thread.
We need proof that a character isn't just teleporting someone to a pocket reality, however if we see stars or a sun in the sky they're assumed to be real until something contradicts it, like the ground having a defined area.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Of course as always, I say that we should list examples of accepted and denied examples with details on why they were accepted or denied. That way users would have some other Pocket Dimensions to look at to know what exactly we look for.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You all agreed that the baseline assumption is that they are always valid (Unless it's an Outlier), so IDK why you'd want to make that list.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because, having examples of something just helps give new people something to look at in terms of what we accept or how our standards are applied. It's just helpful overall.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree, but that's not reflective of the consensus here. It'd be more accurate to write out "We assume all pocket reality feats are attack potency feats until proven otherwise" and leave it at that, rather than give new users the wrong idea that they can sometimes be invalid discounting stuff like outliers/PIS/etc which all have their own pages.

I agree that they can be invalid outside of outliers/PIS/etc, but that doesn't seem to be what the majority thinks here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Mkay

 

[Wokistan]

Wait, since when were we assuming they scaled to durability by default?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wait, since when were we assuming they scaled to durability by default?

Apologies, we don't assume they scale to durability. Misread a comment from Kal.

 

[The_Causality]

Yeah I'm sure that Pocket Dimension Creation doesn't scale to Durability without further proof and for exemle of legit PD, i have some in my mind.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody knowledgeable willing to write a "Pocket Reality Creation Feats" page for us?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So is somebody knowledgeable willing to write a "Pocket Reality Creation Feats" page for us?

Wouldn't it be better to add it as an addentum to the Celestial Body Feats page, or rework/rename that page entirely to Creation Feats?

 

[Antvasima]

No. The Celestial Body Feats page also explains how we rate moving them.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No. The Celestial Body Feats page also explains how we rate moving hem.

Ah. Alright. I'll try to work something out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. You can ask other staff members for help if you wish.