The Problem with Destruction Values We Use (Staff only)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Damaging force of a punch is more based on a combination of KE and precision. Like a 2 Megajoule punch and a 2 Megajoule body slam would be the same AP, but the 2 Megajoule punch would hurt 16.6x more in a general consensus. Though, the damage is harnessed towards a specific part of the body rather than spread out.

I agree this shouldn't be derailed however.

 

[KLOL506]

Damaging force of a punch is more based on a combination of KE and precision. Like a 2 Megajoule punch and a 2 Megajoule body slam would be the same AP, but the 2 Megajoule punch would hurt 16.6x more in a general consensus. Though, the damage is harnessed towards a specific part of the body rather than spread out.

basically like bullets. They do waaaaaaay more damage than their given energy yield

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

And that is why pressure should be the standard metric.

 

[KLOL506]

We can't do pressure for striking strength because it can't converted to energy, unless it's overpressure.

 

[Ugarik]

basically like bullets. They do waaaaaaay more damage than their given energy yield

No they don't. They cause as much damage per unit of volume as they soppose to. Their cross-sectional area is relativity small so they got deeper and obviously depth of a wound is more important than surface area.

 

[Ugarik]

Still tho, what does this formula represent? Young's modulus of the material * surface area of the derbis * tension of the material

I was trying to extract work from Young's modulus but it's not how it works. The actual formula is here or you can use my method

 

[Jaakubb]

Imo pressure should be used up to Tier 9-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Technically, it is already noted that is true pressure is better than energy regarding Tier 9 and below characters. But it would inherently make our system unbalanced to apply pressure rather than energy into the tiering system. We do rate normal humans based on their punching ability and not via body slamming; otherwise every non physically impaired adult would be 9-C or above. I'm pretty sure most people can tell certain details in Vs Threads but as far as profiles and calculation blogs are concerned, we stick to the system.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

No they don't. They cause as much damage per unit of volume as they soppose to. Their cross-sectional area is relativity small so they got deeper and obviously depth of a wound is more important than surface area.

An equal amount of energy put onto a significantly smaller surface area is going to deal more damage than if it's against a larger surface area. 3,000 joules spread across your body is going to hurt, but it's not going to kill you. 3,000 joules imparted from a .308 round will detonate your skull like a watermelon.

So energy yields being treated as universal is definitely an issue. It's a massive and systemtic issue. One so large that you pretty much have to understand that our system of VS matches is just for fun and should never be taken seriously. Someone who is 7-C for tanking an explosion of that magnitude is not actually that strong. Even at point blank, unless your body is curled ontop of whatever the explosive device is, you're going to eat less than 10% of that energy at absolute maximum. On the other hand, if you're 7-C from tanking a punch that has that energy, you've eaten almost the entire energy yield of that punch over a smaller surface area. So not only did one tank 10% of the energy yield, one tanked it over a surface area of about 1.7m^2, while the other tanked it over a surface area of a couple square centimeters.

The divide I just described to you gives durability difference of up to 100,000x or more, depending on the context and exact numbers, yet we treat them as equals. But we overlook that because we literally have to without uprooting the entirety of the system.

 

[KLOL506]

Wow. That's just, waaaaaaaaaay too massive to be dealt with without unmaking the wiki as a whole.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the surface area of each attack makes all the difference, + your whole body tanking something verses just your fist is another story. I noted that on average, a body slam does 0.06 times the damage done by a punch doing the same energy yield.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Ideally, if we could restart the system, we'd probably have been better served by adding a "taken over the surface area equal to the average man" or something similar to our AP tables. That way surface area could have been accounted for. Too deep for that now, though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Let's not go into too much detail and we definitely can't rewrite the whole system. But adding various footnote clarifications would be better. As a side note, if someone literally eats a bomb and they withstand it detonating inside their mouth, I'm sure they'd scale.

 

[KLOL506]

Or if someone literally crouched on it or were standing on top of it. (I mean, not all bombs are big enough to be put into your mouth)

I mean we already apply inverse square law to those not close enough to the bomb.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Or if someone literally crouched on it or were standing on top of it.

I mean we already apply inverse square law to those not close enough to the bomb.

We do, but our consideration for handing out full-yield is way too easy. Even if someone is standing on top of the bomb, they're not going to take 100% of the energy. Not even close.

If they close their mouths around it or curl ontop of it, yeah, they're tanking 100% or close enough to it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It also depends on the initial size of the bomb; like if it's the size of a pinky finger, but detonates larger than it looks, than standing on it could scale to the character. But sitting on a Nuke that's bigger than you are that detonates isn't something that fully scales.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

It also depends on the initial size of the bomb; like if it's the size of a pinky finger, but detonates larger than it looks, than standing on it could scale to the character. But sitting on a Nuke that's bigger than you are that detonates isn't something that fully scales.

Yeah. Here is an example that scales 100%. Sitting on a hydrogen bomb wouldn't scale 100%.

 

[KLOL506]

Either way I don't think there's any reliable way to carry out the changes without basically rewriting the system AKA the wiki from scratch.

Guess we should leave the system as is.

 

[Ugarik]

An equal amount of energy put onto a significantly smaller surface area is going to deal more damage than if it's against a larger surface area. 3,000 joules spread across your body is going to hurt, but it's not going to kill you. 3,000 joules imparted from a .308 round will detonate your skull like a watermelon.

No. 3000 joules with surface area of a bullet can potentially make a 10 meter deep hole in your body. 3000 joules spread across the entire body will squeeze it by a milimeter. Sure, the first impact will kill you unlike the second but effected volume remains the same.

 

[Ugarik]

And most importantly. Why are we even discussing it?

 

[KLOL506]

You're confusing damage dealt with volume affected, Ugarik.

Also I don't think that's how bullets work, otherwise .308 rounds wouldn't be blowing up heads and ripping limbs apart, and neither would .50 BMG rounds do the same.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Squeezing your body by a millimeter will not harm you. Punching a 5 inch hole through your sternum will.

 

[KLOL506]

Not to mention people can actually survive being tackled into the ground with that kind of force in sports all the time.

Bullets on the other hand, well, a shotgun can obliterate large parts of the skull and send it flying in all directions.

We're discussing it because it has a lot to do with how punches work.

 

[Jaakubb]

I think it wouldnt be too bad to just remake Tier 9 and Tier 10 accounting for surface area.

Most high tier attacks are explosions, beams and punches anyways. When they use swords or blades, it's almost always accounted for in-universe so that would solve that.

 

[KLOL506]

No, as Assalt said, other tiers would be affected by this as a whole due to even explosions being mixed into the whole pressure problem.

 

[Jaakubb]

Explosion durability feats could just be halved if needed. Just use inverse square law or something. I dont get why pressure units would become necessary.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also I'm pretty sure 50 cal can bust heads open and dismember.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's still going to make the Attack Potency chart look messy if we applied that. Yes, we keep the pressure vs Joules of energy in mind in Vs Threads and we use inverse square law for calculating durability. But our AP chart will stick to the formula from beginning to end.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Also I'm pretty sure 50 cal can bust heads open and dismember.

Any rifle round or shotgun slug is going to bust open heads. A .50 BMG (I'm assuming you mean BMG since that's what people think of when they hear ".50 cal") has an order of magnitude more energy than a 5.56x45 round. It will completely blow someone's head apart and tear off limbs.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright, I agree with DDM. We should still put on the profiles something like "higher with penetration" or something along the lines of that.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also I'm pretty sure 50 cal can bust heads open and dismember.

Any rifle round or shotgun slug is going to bust open heads. A .50 BMG (I'm assuming you mean BMG since that's what people think of when they hear ".50 cal") has an order of magnitude more energy than a 5.56x45 round. It will completely blow someone's head apart and tear off limbs.

Yeah. I agree

 

[KLOL506]

I think the whole "higher with penetration" stuff was rejected due to this pressure debacle.

It would also only apply to very few IRL weapons if accepted. Especially rifles, shotguns and anti-materiel sniper rifles using .50 cal rounds. Not like they exceed Tier 9 so eh, not really worth such a small change.

 

[Jaakubb]

How would "higher with penetration" cause pressure problems? AP would still be listed exactly the same (total joules) except with that small addition. AP is supposed to measure a lot of stuff, even non combat applicable stats, isnt it?

 

[KLOL506]

Penetration is combat applicable tho

Again, pressure is a whole different metric, and even with the pressure included the feats are not going anywhere near high-end 9-B.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Pretty much only handgun calibers would barely move if we took bullet area into account. Some would get into 9-A and 8-C, with most, at bare minimum, becoming high into 9-B.

 

[KLOL506]

If some were to get into 9-A and 8-C I'd suspect it'd be tank shells but those are massive for their size.

 

[Jaakubb]

Penetration is combat applicable tho

Again, pressure is a whole different metric, and even with the pressure included the feats are not going anywhere near high-end 9-B.

Thats my point. If we can list non combat applicable things, why cant we account for pressure? It'll just be a sort of footnote like "possibly much higher."

 

[KLOL506]

Because 1, it's not the same unit as energy is (Pretty sure most inapplicable-in-combat maneuvers are still in joules) and 2, it literally wouldn't leave 9-B unless it's tank shells we're talking about but those are massive anyway.

If it's overpressure tho, that's a completely different story, because that is the only one that can actually be used to find energy but it's not related with bullets so no point talking about that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, penetration resistance is often less about direct durability and more about an object being really hard. Like often times, a 9-B robot is less susceptible to bullets than a 9-A Giant animal. Though it goes without saying the latter has more blunt force trauma resistance. Also interesting to note soft/squishy objects tend to resist blunt force more than a lot of metals do.

 

[KLOL506]

DDM is correct.