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The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 1)

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ShionAH

ShionAH

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First of all I want to say this wouldn't b possible without @Gewsbumpz_dude, huge thanks to him.

I got help from his profile and blog

Doom Essence

Essence Explanation

Davoth and God Tiers will also get Essence Hax and Resistance

Cosmology Upgrade

5D

This is straight up 5D, it literally cannot be 4D because Humans who can travel through 4D cannot reach it
5D - 6D
Low 1-A (?)



Users
Agree: 10 (@Roirr, @StrymULTRA, @BestMGQScalerEver, @Spicy78, @Da3ggman[Neutral on Low 1-A], @Eseseso [Neutral on Low 1-A], @Georredannea15 [On Essence], @Kenny Mccormick 0v0 [Neutral on Low 1-A], @Minos_the_Judge, @HigashikataJobin [possibly Low 1-A])
Disagree: 1 (@Vietthai96)
Neutral: 1 (@Accelerated_Evolution)

Staff
Agree: (@DarkDragonMedeus [Neutral on 6D], @Firestorm808)
Disagree: (@Planck69 [On Cosmology], @Theglassman12[On Cosmology], @DarkDragonMedeus [Low 1-A]
Neutral: ​
 
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I agree with low 1-A hell (in its entirety so only like samur/slayer/davoth scales). Statement seems pretty direct in reference to superiority over space and time/dimensions.
 
Congratulations for you guys! That´s some really good work

Neutral on the CRT itself, just wanted to note that Doomguy´s 2016 Intelligence key is empty
 
Soul Manipulation (Can physically interact with evil spirits and things of a similar nature like Spiritual Armor and Soul Spheres. Comparable to his great grandfather, William J. Blazkowicz, who is able to damage and obliterate souls. Comparable to his great grandfather, William J. Blazkowicz, who is able to damage and obliterate souls)
Click to expand...
From this Q&A this power seems to be NPI only, unless the weapon the character is using is described as being made to destroy souls and things like that.
 
LET'S GOOOOOOOO, this is like seeing an introvert friend finally getting a girlfriend

agreed with the crt so far (neutral on low 1-a though), but i have an objection:

Click to expand...
his bfr is labeled as low 1-c. shouldn't it be 1-c as the void is beyond DOOM's cosmology, which would put it beyond 5 dimensions (which is now labeled as 1-c)?
 
Spicy78 said:
his bfr is labeled as low 1-c. shouldn't it be 1-c as the void is beyond DOOM's cosmology, which would put it beyond 5 dimensions (which is now labeled as 1-c)?
Click to expand...
Oops I forgot to change that to "filler". I will fix all that shit depending if the cosmology stuff passes or not.

By the way DOOM is only 2-A for now, the Void is 5D.
 
doom-slayer.gif


Hell yeah, good job man! Not entirely sold on Low 1-A, but everything else seems to be solid.

(Btw, the scan about Hell being unbound by space, time, and dimensions isn’t working for me. It might be broken?)
 
I'm pretty skeptical about the "Stabilizing subspaces" being a reason for Low 2-C. As for cosmology upgrades, I am unsure if that meets criteria for Low 1-A. But some ability additions and other proposals for the cosmology updates look alright.
 
Click to expand...
This should be Limited BFR, cause the condition for the ability is the target need to be killed first

Neutral on Low 1-A, personally i don't believe it cause iirc there is a ******* map that describe the Urdak sit on top of the multiverse (Human World) while Hell is at the bottom and apparently they can switch place, but this is @Ultima job to evaluate it

I will go over Conceptual Manipulation later, but i will say first that just because something is fundamental and is called to be essence doesn't mean it somehow being conceptual
 
Vietthai96 said:
Neutral on Low 1-A, personally i don't believe it cause iirc there is a ******* map that describe the Urdak sit on top of the multiverse (Human World) while Hell is at the bottom and apparently they can switch place
Click to expand...
Thats done by technology I believe? Its also really vague.
Vietthai96 said:
I will go over Conceptual Manipulation later
Click to expand...
Someones Will, Suffering would be conceptual I think

It is also fundamentally the counciousness including shit like intelligence and memories as said in the blog
 
Will look at the new profile with critical eyes.

So first, I am going to point at the elephant in the room.

It unifies the lore/canon of Quake+Commander Keen+Wolfenstein+DOOM, and cross-scales between them.​

I know that Tom Hall in 2018 said that Doom Guy and Commander Keen were planned as descendents of B.J. Blazkowicz (Wolfenstein's protagonist), and that this is mentioned in Wolfenstein RPG (its final boss is the Harbinger of Doom, who is the Cyberdemon, promising to fight the descendent of Wolfenstein protagonist after defeat).



The Wolfenstein 3D Official Hint Manual says that BJ. Blazkowicz's grandson goes by B. Blaze. Commander Keen goes by Billy Blaze.
f9hCP4l.png


However there are three issues:

1- To make Commander Keen fit, we have to believe that humanity before the events of DOOM encountered all sort of aliens, including alien civilizations trying to conquer Earth and destroy the galaxy.​


Mod-creatures-collection.png


This is a native of Mars in Commander Keen:
Garg.png


If Commander Keen is BJ. Blazkowicz's grandson, then his story takes place in the 1990s.
In the DOOM reboot, humans started colonizing Mars in 2095, and DOOM 2016 takes place in 2145.

This is very different from how most people see the timeline of DOOM.

2- DOOM RPG (which Wolfenstein RPG is canon to) claims that the Doom Marine from DOOM 3 is the same as Doomguy.​

"...you reprise the role of the Doom Marine made famous in the groundbreaking id Software titles Doom, Doom II, and Doom 3."

DOOM 3 is in a very weird spot canon-wise. Hugo Martin said that while the aesthetics of DOOM 3 is an inspiration, it is tough to claim it fits into the reboot canon, and that DOOM 3 went into a different direction lore-wise when it comes to the main character.

The wiki considers the Marine from DOOM 3 a different character.

3- The DOOM and Wolfenstein reboots are developed by different studios (though both studios are owned by Bethseda), and there are no recent references to the lineage.​

Wolfenstein RPG is supposed to take place shortly before Return to Castle Wolfenstein, however the Wolfenstein reboot retcons various aspects of Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Also, BJ Blazkowitz's son Arthur, who is supposed to be B. Blaze's father, doesn't exist per Wolfenstein: Young Blood.
A secret DOOM II level has four hanged corpses of Commander Keen you have to shoot to progress, and there are dopefish (enemy from Commander Keen) eastereggs in Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. But those are random easter eggs.

Doomguy/Doomslayer is a selectable character in Quake III and Quake Champions, so DOOM is canon to Quake, but I am not aware of a statement making Quake and its multiversal tournament canon to DOOM.
I guess Rage has the Nail Gun from Quake as a DLC weapon, and Rage 2 has the BFG 9000 as a DLC weapon.


This is an important change and should be discussed further.



Immortality

First two scans are from Quake. The second one is about a death knight, so just Tier 7 would fit?

The third and last scan seems to argue that the Doom Slayer will transform into a parasitic ghost because he holds hatred in his heart.
Don't know about that.
While it is something that can potentially happen, he didn't die yet for this to be actualized. Also, why wouldn't he transform into a regular ghost, like King Novik and loyalist Night Sentinel ghosts?



Immortality Negation

The scan says: "Apparently when a demon dies, they pick him up, dust him off, wire him some combat gear, and send him back into battle. No rest for the wicked, eh? You wish your missiles did what his can do."

So when demons dies, other demons collect their corpses, patch em' up and hook them with cybernetics, and the previously dead demons are ready for combat again.

The ability suggests that has a special power to negate Eternal Life, Resilient Immortality, and Undeath.
But all he does per the scan is kill a resurrected demon again.

Shouldn't exist.


Immortality Negation

So basically a demon with regeneration abilities eventually regenerated from crippling injuries, and resurrected other demons.
Doomguy delivered enough damage to kill this demon proprely.

Therefore, he negates Type 3 Immortality?
Doesn't compute.

Lost Souls are spirits that transmogrified into a physical form, and when you shoot them, they explode.
Therefore, Low-Godly Regeneration Negation????
What the...

There are multiple Cyberdemons; is there any evidence that specific Cyberdemon hoof got resurrected?
And how long did the regeneration and resurrection take?


Immortality Negation

Hugo Martin mentioned that the Crucible immobalizes Titans, so I wouldn't count that as regular death.
Also, we don't see Titans get revived on their own. We have the Crucible getting pulled and they show a bit of movement, and the Khan Maykr sacrificing the Betrayer's son to resurrect the Icon of Sin.


Immortality Negation

Quake and Wolfenstein RPG scans.



Invulnerability Negation (Can kill Cyberdemons and Tyrants with conventional weaponry and has been doing it for many years, who can normally only be harmed by holy weapons like the Spear of Destiny)

Wolfenstein RPG scans.



Acausality

Does walking in Hell automatically give you Type 1 acausality? Does this include all the Night Sentinel doing incursions?

There are four Commander Keens who appear dead by hanging in that level. So assuming the lineage thing isn't retconned, those would be four Commander Keens from different timelines.



Reactive Evolution, Adaptation and Accelerated Development (Battle; Physical Statistics, Abilities, and Resistances. Doomguy gets stronger the more he kills and fights, becoming more capable after every battle he goes through, along with increasing his max health, max armor, and max speed. Humanity is the single most deadly and adaptable race in the entire universes)
Absorption and Power Absorption (Doomguy can absorb power-ups like Soul Spheres, which contain human souls. Draws strength from fallen foes, growing more powerful the more he kills. Can also gain new powers by absorbing things; Gained the ability to empower his weapons after absorbing the power of UI-Thranx demons. Similarly, he absorbed the power of the Berserk power-up, allowing him to undergo its effects at will)

Uses feats describing him post Divinity Machine.
Also uses Quake level up game mechanics?


Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Willpower Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Life Manipulation, Power Nullification, Reality Warping and Space-Time Manipulation (Can survive in Hell for extended periods of time, Hell passively drains the essence out of the mortal creatures in it. "Essence" is a conceptual force that governs all of reality, including realms like Hell, and is responsible for the existence of one's soul, memory, will, intelligence, mind, strength, and abilities, down to their essential natures. Can endure the fire-based attacks of demons, which can burn souls. Can also endure physical attacks, including bites, from demons, who are implied to be capable of devouring souls. Is immune to the effects of Lost Souls, Can remain relatively unaffected by the magic of Arch-Viles, which allow it to control the minds of others. Is immune to the effects of Hell Magic which can directly affect concepts; Forged the essence of mortal suffering to form the Icon of Sin. Buff Totems are incarnal manifestations of human suffering, formed from the tortured resonance of the once living. Was once able to turn the hatred of humans into an intoxicating energy. Was used to make physical material out of corruption and death)

Uses lots of feats from post Divinity Machine.


Transmutation, Corruption (Can survive in Hell, which can transform souls into Lost Souls, giving them physical forms. Generally resistant by Hell Magic, which once transformed hate into energy. Unaffected by the energy of Screecher Zombies, which can malform the bodies of living things. Immune to the passive effects of Hell, which passively turns mortal creatures into demons)

He already has a body; he is not a body-less soul. So why are Lost Souls relevant here?

The last scan disqualifies the ability. It says that transformation from a mortal to a demon would take eons without Argent Energy (Hell Essence + Wraith Energy from trapped Wraiths in the Well).
Afaik, there is no evidence Argent Energy is used in classic DOOM.



Possession (Is immune to the effects of Lost Souls, which possess and take over the souls of those they ram into)

Should say that Lost Souls possess the bodies of those injured and weak-willed, causing their souls to be lost.


Death Manipulation (Doomguy can push past mortal wounds and certain death through sheer willpower)

Scan is talking about physical injuries, not death magic and the like.


Explosion Manipulation (Immune to the negative effects of gateways, which causes the bodies of those who enter them to explode)

Says that gateways are unstable, and those who use them either disappear, or go crazy before eventually exploding.
Seems to be resistance to possession, rather than explosions per se.


Immortality

Didn't provide evidence Davoth's immortality is anything besides Type 1. So doesn't warrant Type 5.


Enhanced Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (Can[1] destroy[1] structures[1] within[1] Urdak[1]. Urdak is a higher-dimensional[1] plane of existence fixed beyond the boundaries of the known mortal plane[1], completely inaccessible to lower beings like humans and Sentinels, and is described as a hub of transcendent technology[1])

But are the structures he destroyed in Urdak higher-dimensional?
What about the demons mobs who invaded Urdak, are they higher-dimensional?



Attack Potency: At least Small Building level (Capable of killing demons on this level with his bare fists). Up to Universe level+ with Power-ups, Reactive Evolution, Adaptation, Accelerated Development, Berserk Mode and Rage Power (Easily killed Commander Keen with a single blow, who can endure the combined power of the three plasma crystals which would have been powerful enough to destroy the universe and its space-time, reducing it to shambles. Is able to kill Icon of Sin and Mother Demon) higher with weaponry | Filler, far higher with Power-ups, Reactive Evolution, Adaptation, Accelerated Development, Berserk Mode and Rage Power and Crucible (Wields the Demonic Crucible[1], a weapon said to have the power to corrupt all realms.[1] Scales from durability) | Filler, far higher with Power-ups, Reactive Evolution, Adaptation, Accelerated Development, Berserk Mode and Rage Power and Crucible | Filler (Fought and easily defeated Davoth[1], Doom Slayer is able to make the entire multiverse implode inward upon itself[1]) higher with Sentinel Hammer

Won't discuss the crossover scaling just yet, but a note that the current Commander Keen profile doesn't put him anywhere near universal.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Commander Keen (Character)

William Joseph Blazkowicz II, also known by his title of Commander Keen, is an eight years old genius who maintains galactic laws, protects the universe, and battles against his archnemesis, Mortimer McMire. He is the grandson of William Joseph Blazkowicz, a war hero who fought against the Nazis...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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Wait, Higher Dimesional Manipulation as a power got nuked, so remove that, that shit is now Dimensional Manipulation and it have different standard
 
ShionAH said:
Someones Will, Suffering would be conceptual I think

It is also fundamentally the counciousness including shit like intelligence and memories as said in the blog
Click to expand...
I'm suffering from pain, is that conceptual??, no

Will, well you can argue it is abstract, if we take the word in literal sense, rather than it just refering to someone willpower, endurance. But being abstract doesn't make it conceptual by any mean

Counciousness, intelligence, or memories hardly is something can be considered as abstract, let alone conceptual. Let me do a wild guess, @Gewsbumpz_dude take inspiration from GoW??

Edit: Anyway, i understand the arguments for CM, but well, from my experience with how CM standard being handled on this site, i don't think these arguments going to work, unless peoples being lenient on the verse
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
This is an important change and should be discussed further.
Click to expand...
I was always confused on how the canon would work, so I wont really discuss this but I think @Gewsbumpz_dude can discuss this with you
ShadowWhoWalks said:
First two scans are from Quake. The second one is about a death knight, so just Tier 7 would fit?
Click to expand...
Quake is in the same multiverse as Doom I think, it doesnt really have anything that goes against it
ShadowWhoWalks said:
The third and last scan seems to argue that the Doom Slayer will transform into a parasitic ghost because he holds hatred
Click to expand...
Yes, being able to transform into a parasite and a Ghost due to pure hatred would he Type 6.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
So when demons dies, other demons collect their corpses, patch em' up and hook them with cybernetics, and the previously dead demons are ready for combat again.
Click to expand...
Idea I had was that the scan implies Demons can survive even when they should “die” which seems to be being turned into a skeleton in case of these guys. Yet Doom Guy can permanently kill them without needing to go past the skeleton phase or whatever is needed to kill them, he can do it with his shotgun

Plus you kinda ignored the other scan.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Lost Souls are spirits that transmogrified into a physical form, and when you shoot them, they explode.
Therefore, Low-Godly Regeneration Negation????
Click to expand...
Lost Souls are souls that were able to create a physical form for themselves, yet when Doom Guy kills them they permanently die. Souls that can achieve physical forms die when Doom Guy hits them.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
There are multiple Cyberdemons; is there any evidence that specific Cyberdemon hoof got resurrected?
And how long did the regeneration and resurrection take?
Click to expand...
Thing is, the mother demon can resurrect them after Cyberdemons get hoofed. Yet she couldnt when Doom Guy killed her
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Hugo Martin mentioned that the Crucible immobalizes Titans, so I wouldn't count that as regular death.
Also, we don't see Titans get revived on their own. We have the Crucible getting pulled and they show a bit of movement, and the Khan Maykr sacrificing the Betrayer's son to resurrect the Icon of Sin.
Click to expand...
This is already accepted on the current profile, so you might need to make a downgrade for it
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Does walking in Hell automatically give you Type 1 acausality? Does this include all the Night Sentinel doing incursions?
Click to expand...
It is beyond time itself, it is also a supporting feat since Acasuality 4 feat can already be argued for Type 1 like currently on the wikis profile
ShadowWhoWalks said:
There are four Commander Keens who appear dead by hanging in that level. So assuming the lineage thing isn't retconned, those would be four Commander Keens from different timelines.


Uses lots of feats from post Divinity Machine.
Click to expand...
So? Its Hell.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
The last scan disqualifies the ability. It says that transformation from a mortal to a demon would take eons without Argent Energy (Hell Essence + Wraith Energy from trapped Wraiths in the Well).
Afaik, there is no evidence Argent Energy is used in classic DOOM.
Click to expand...
No no, there is additional proof where Doom Guy resists soul attacks.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Scan is talking about physical injuries, not death magic and the like.
Click to expand...
Being able to survive even when you should be dead could be death hax resistande though
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Didn't provide evidence Davoth's immortality is anything besides Type 1. So doesn't warrant Type 5.
Click to expand...
Unbound my mortality is textbook Type 5
ShadowWhoWalks said:
But are the structures he destroyed in Urdak higher-dimensional?
What about the demons mobs who invaded Urdak, are they higher-dimensional?
Click to expand...
Only Higher Dimensional hax. They can affect 5D places.
 
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Vietthai96 said:
I'm suffering from pain, is that conceptual??, no
Click to expand...
Human suffering would be conceptual. You can touch human suffering??
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway, i understand the arguments for CM, but well, from my experience with how CM standard being handled on this site, i don't think these arguments going to work, unless peoples being lenient on the verse
Click to expand...
Like you said GoW has something very similar to this, someones will someones suffering someones fundamental counciousness like his intelligence and etc.

I think this is being nit-picky to be honest, especially with how clear CM 1 is
 
Quake is literally just fighting arena that took the greatest warriors across time and space.

 
Vietthai96 said:
If i'm nitpicky, then i will demand that you namedrop conceptual word
Click to expand...
You dont need the word conceptual plastered on your face to know its conceptual. It governs all of reality, can affect space-time and reality, is stated to be the soul and mind of beings, is stated to contain the power, strenght, counciousness, intelligence, will, emotions and is the fundamental essence of all these.

This is not conceptual to you? Fine, I am putting you on disagree chief.
 
To clarify, God of War's Conceptual Manipulation is that life=soul=Magic and that the soul is someone's concept(shaping their size, shape, colors, luck, mind, fundamental nature), Magic is what makes up the Primordials(who are personifications that create and govern their object through out space and time) and magic itself has implications of being Conceptual.

From what I'm seeing, Doom's essence Manipulation is just as good in terms of qualifying.
 
ShionAH said:
You dont need the word conceptual plastered on your face to know its conceptual. It governs all of reality, can affect space-time and reality, is stated to be the soul and mind of beings, is stated to contain the power, strenght, counciousness, intelligence, will, emotions and is the fundamental essence of all these.

This is not conceptual to you? Fine, I am putting you on disagree chief.
Click to expand...
But isn't you told me to be nitpicky??

Also
Vietthai96 said:
Wait, Higher Dimesional Manipulation as a power got nuked, so remove that, that shit is now Dimensional Manipulation and it have different standard
Click to expand...
About this
 
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