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The Multiversal Undertale CRT

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y3p_owo said:
Anyways in all seriousness, I'm always down for 2-B Undertale. In fact, there is actually a blog that gives us an actual number how many timelines the Undertale verse could have: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StrymULTRA/Undertale_verse_cosmology
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Noppers.
y3p_owo said:
Wait, what?
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I have proven that when Chara said "world", they meant the entirety of Undertale, not just a timeline. This comes from the fact that the term "world" is something that encompasses all different paths Frisk can take, Chara states as much on the second Genocide.

With Asriel, it comes from the fact that Flowey used the term "world" as something greater than timeline, and then proceeded to declare he was destroy the world during his battle.
 
y3p_owo said:
Anyways in all seriousness, I'm always down for 2-B Undertale. In fact, there is actually a blog that gives us an actual number how many timelines the Undertale verse could have:
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Bad tho, they forgetting about 6 children and the fact that Flowey killed every underground man (13000+), so it would calculate to much higher degree + Flowery did something that ingame impossible, for example +300 ways to make Asgore give SOULs.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I have proven that when Chara said "world", they meant the entirety of Undertale, not just a timeline. This comes from the fact that the term "world" is something that encompasses all different paths Frisk can take, Chara states as much on the second Genocide.

With Asriel, it comes from the fact that Flowey used the term "world" as something greater than timeline, and then proceeded to declare he was destroy the world during his battle.
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Wait, are you talking about Chara and Asriel scaling to the 2-B or the Low 1-C stuff? Cause my comment was about the Low 1-C stuff.
Originlima said:
Bad tho, they forgetting about 6 children and the fact that Flowey killed every underground man (13000+), so it would calculate to much higher degree + Flowery did something that ingame impossible, for example +300 ways to make Asgore give SOULs.
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Since we don't really know how many times the 6 humans resetted, they're not really that usable. Like the most we can assume is that they've resetted at least once, so we can just add 6 to the total. And they did actually go over Flowey. Like, it's the first thing they went over.
 
y3p_owo said:
Wait, are you talking about Chara and Asriel scaling to the 2-B or the Low 1-C stuff? Cause my comment was about the Low 1-C stuff.
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It scales only to player tho...
y3p_owo said:
Since we don't really know how many times the 6 humans resetted, they're not really that usable. Like the most we can assume is that they've resetted at least once, so we can just add 6 to the total. And they did actually go over Flowey. Like, it's the first thing they went over.
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So, it all AT VERY least 100000?
 
From what I've heard of this proposal, I agree with this. I'll read the thread in a bit to reconfirm, but atm from what I know checks out just fine.
 
Yeah agree with this (In that there's multiple timelines). I'd personally go with 2-C, likely 2-B to be safe, but I'm not against 2-B flat out either, just my personal preference.
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̵A̵l̵w̵a̵y̵s̵ ̵w̵o̵n̵d̵e̵r̵e̵d̵ ̵w̵h̵y̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵y̵ ̵g̵o̵t̵ ̵d̵o̵w̵n̵g̵r̵a̵d̵e̵d̵ ̵w̵h̵e̵n̵ ̵h̵e̵ ̵s̵a̵y̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵
 
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Amount of resets isn't equivalent to number of timelines existing, if so, how does one even prove or suggest the amount of timelines is above 1000
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Amount of resets isn't equivalent to number of timelines existing, if so, how does one even prove or suggest the amount of timelines is above 1000
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I would assume the logic is that

All of flowey's resets + FUN Values + The 6 human souls resets = over 1000

we cant actually get an exact number. but the fact that flowey did every possible thing with the world would assume he did things even frisk didn't do, which would likely get the number of resets he did near 1000
 
FarerPurple said:
I would assume the logic is that

All of flowey's resets + FUN Values + The 6 human souls resets = over 1000

we cant actually get an exact number. but the fact that flowey did every possible thing with the world would assume he did things even frisk didn't do, which would likely get the number of resets he did near 1000
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But as I said, number of resets =/= different timelines.

The FUN values, the events that happen naturally without the influence of a Time Traveller, are the only timelines.

When you reset, you change your FUN value, and they can repeat themselves. The difference in these timelines are caused by Flowey or Frisk.

There is a timeline 88 where Flowey burned every book, and there is a timeline 88 where Flowey read every book. (As an example, we don't know if his FUN value repeated at that time, but given the number of resets, it might've happened once)

Both take place in Timeline 88 (FUN = 88), but have different events because Flowey made them different. It doesn't make them separate space and temporal places. They are still the same timeline, Flowey just changed the events by resetting and getting the same FUN value. Of course, hypothetically to explain my point.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Amount of resets isn't equivalent to number of timelines existing, if so, how does one even prove or suggest the amount of timelines is above 1000
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Theres thousands of monsters in the underground and flowey implied hes interacted with everyone in every possible way. And on asgore he might have reloaded hundreds of times there alone.
"We don't even need to leave to get them this time. The king has six of them locked away. I've tried hundreds of ways to get him to show me them... But he just won't."

If number of resets equates to it or that helps anyway
 
RethPo said:
Theres thousands of monsters in the underground and flowey implied hes interacted with everyone in every possible way. And on asgore he might have reloaded hundreds of times there alone.
"We don't even need to leave to get them this time. The king has six of them locked away. I've tried hundreds of ways to get him to show me them... But he just won't."

If number of resets equates to it or that helps anyway
Click to expand...
It doesn't
 
Right so were basically stuck on what to do with the cosmology even with multiple timelines being good. And i take that char is basically saying that while fun values are timelines, frisk could totally go through timeline 88, reset, then replay timeline 88 or one of the other 100 again and sans statement of multiple timelines would still add up to that.

Ive got no opinion on that atm but, what does everyone think on treating the cosmology like that?
 
RethPo said:
Right so were basically stuck on what to do with the cosmology even with multiple timelines being good. And i take that char is basically saying that while fun values are timelines, frisk could totally go through timeline 88, reset, then replay timeline 88 or one of the other 100 again and sans statement of multiple timelines would still add up to that.

Ive got no opinion on that atm but, what does everyone think on treating the cosmology like that?
Click to expand...
I don't like that interpretation because it doesn't adequately explain how resets work, especially true resets, if you end up in a given timeline twice in a row. In fact, I don't know if we even should consider Fun values at all - or if we do, how their existence points to multiple timelines coexisting as opposed to, say, a single timeline that happens to be partially random. I don't mean to contest the upgrade as a whole since Sans and Alphys' statements are good enough evidence in favor of a multiverse IMO, but I do believe that Fun values are shaky evidence at best.

And lastly, since you previously brought up the difference between a reset and a true reset in how it affects things, I'm gonna play devil's advocate and argue the true reset to just be a reset that doesn't stop at the point in time where Frisk falls into the underground, but affects the entirety of the timeline, hence why it can change things that happen before Frisk falls down while a regular reset cannot, and also being reasonably consistent with Flowey's claim that we would erase everything we worked for if we go through with it. Read back to the points I raised in my first two posts on this thread, and then also consider the following:
  1. The act of resetting, in its normal usage, literally means "to set again or anew." In this case, it'd be referring to how the player can go back to the beginning of the game and take a different path.
  2. While we don't explicitly know whether or not the surface is affected by the use of save file-related powers in the underground, the fact that you can only change Chara's name after a true reset, which in turn you can only do when the barrier separating the underground from the surface is destroyed, is quite telling.
    1. Also of note, the only other person who threatens the world with a true reset is Asriel, who we know is powerful enough to destroy the barrier. Meanwhile, when we look at Flowey's save file prior to fighting him, the options listed suggest that he would only be capable of doing a regular reset. I can grab a scan of this if you'd like.
 
KingPin0422 said:
I don't like that interpretation because it doesn't adequately explain how resets work, especially true resets, if you end up in a given timeline twice in a row. In fact, I don't know if we even should consider Fun values at all - or if we do, how their existence points to multiple timelines coexisting as opposed to, say, a single timeline that happens to be partially random. I don't mean to contest the upgrade as a whole since Sans and Alphys' statements are good enough evidence in favor of a multiverse IMO, but I do believe that Fun values are shaky evidence at best.

And lastly, since you previously brought up the difference between a reset and a true reset in how it affects things, I'm gonna play devil's advocate and argue the true reset to just be a reset that doesn't stop at the point in time where Frisk falls into the underground, but affects the entirety of the timeline, hence why it can change things that happen before Frisk falls down while a regular reset cannot, and also being reasonably consistent with Flowey's claim that we would erase everything we worked for if we go through with it. Read back to the points I raised in my first two posts on this thread, and then also consider the following:
  1. The act of resetting, in its normal usage, literally means "to set again or anew." In this case, it'd be referring to how the player can go back to the beginning of the game and take a different path.
  2. While we don't explicitly know whether or not the surface is affected by the use of save file-related powers in the underground, the fact that you can only change Chara's name after a true reset, which in turn you can only do when the barrier separating the underground from the surface is destroyed, is quite telling.
    1. Also of note, the only other person who threatens the world with a true reset is Asriel, who we know is powerful enough to destroy the barrier. Meanwhile, when we look at Flowey's save file prior to fighting him, the options listed suggest that he would only be capable of doing a regular reset. I can grab a scan of this if you'd like.
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Condense your points, christ.

One timeline whose events change at random regardless if things and paths Frisk takes are the exact same? How does that work? No, FUN Values are a clear indication of different timelines, it's how you encounter the Goner Kid who even talks to you about different worlds where he doesn't exist, aka, the different FUN Values, meaning they are evidence, in conjunction with Alphys' and Sans' statement.

100 Timelines is the bare minimum, and there is no evidence that there is any more.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Eseseso, why are you here man?...
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1. I was a massive Undertale fan back in the 2015-2017 period.

2. Related to the above, I remembered the days of 2-B to 2-A Undertale and was curious.

3. I kinda need a break from OP CRT's.

4. 2-B stuff for franchises I know always interests me (and I'm still waiting for 2-B Kirby).

5. Why not?
 
Eseseso said:
1. I was a massive Undertale fan back in the 2015-2017 period.

2. Related to the above, I remembered the days of 2-B to 2-A Undertale and was curious.

3. I kinda need a break from OP CRT's.

4. 2-B stuff for franchises I know always interests me (and I'm still waiting for 2-B Kirby).

5. Why not?
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You're not contributing, and u're very notorious for being... uhm, a nuisance. You literally just asked something answered right above you. You make thread thrice as long as they need to me.
 
Looking over the thread again, I'm leaning to agree with 2-B and for Asriel and Chara scaling, neutral on Omega Flowey scaling

GodlyCharmander said:
You're not contributing, and you're very notorious for being... uhm, a nuisance. You literally just asked something answered right above you. You make thread thrice as long as they need to me.
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So what, you're saying I'm not allowed to comment on any crt anymore?
 
Eseseso said:
1. I was a massive Undertale fan back in the 2015-2017 period.

2. Related to the above, I remembered the days of 2-B to 2-A Undertale and was curious.

3. I kinda need a break from OP CRT's.

4. 2-B stuff for franchises I know always interests me (and I'm still waiting for 2-B Kirby).

5. Why not?
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2-B kirby? how?
 
Alright, if 2-B gets accepted over 2-C (with the latter being the absolute minimum anyway), allow me to introduce two ideas on how the size of said 2-B cosmology would be:
  • A: Frisk alone can go at very absolute least 115 Resets (93 endings + 12 tries against Sans + 10 tries against Asgore). Flowey obviously did much more than that, as in hundreds of resets he couldn't make Asgore show him the SOULs, and he could explore every possibility of the underground, meaning that said 2-B, as a very conservative end, should be at very absolute least in the thousands range, as is the safest assumptions for the total amounts of resets done from the characters, and doesn't go in faulty calcs with tons of assumptions.


I legit don't care if B get rejected, or both B and A in favor of just 2-C with 100 timelines, but I just wanted to express an opinion.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Alright, if 2-B gets accepted over 2-C (with the latter being the absolute minimum anyway), allow me to introduce two ideas on how the size of said 2-B cosmology would be:
  • A: Frisk alone can go at very absolute least 115 Resets (93 endings + 12 tries against Sans + 10 tries against Asgore). Flowey obviously did much more than that, as in hundreds of resets he couldn't make Asgore show him the SOULs, and he could explore every possibility of the underground, meaning that said 2-B, as a very conservative end, should be at very absolute least in the thousands range, as is the safest assumptions for the total amounts of resets done from the characters, and doesn't go in faulty calcs with tons of assumptions.


I legit don't care if B get rejected, or both B and A in favor of just 2-C with 100 timelines, but I just wanted to express an opinion.
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People have posted your blog before.

Flowey wasn't resetting, he was just loading over Frisk's death. LOAD'ing isn't a reset.

There seems to be no hard proof that the simple act of resetting the timeline and moving to a new one is evidence of number of timelines. 2-C is safer atm.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
People have posted your blog before.
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;)
GodlyCharmander said:
Flowey wasn't resetting, he was just loading over Frisk's death. LOAD'ing isn't a reset.
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My point is that there's still not a real cap to how many Resets can be done, as Loads and Saves are still linked to the same Determination power.
GodlyCharmander said:
There seems to be no hard proof that the simple act of resetting the timeline and moving to a new one is evidence of number of timelines. 2-C is safer atm.
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I said if 2-B is getting added, it should be one of those, as they're the ones without relying on random calcs on how many times Flowey has reset.
 
probably gonna split the agree votes, considering we have agreed on multiple timelines but aren't really agreeing on if there are timelines that could grant a 2-B rating.

Agree with 2-B: transcending, Darkdragonmedeus, originlima, saikou, chariot (although seems to prefer a '2-C, likely 2-B' rating), wagy (6)

Agree with 2-C: Charmander, Esseso

Neutral: Infiniteday (although leaning towards agree with 2-B, it seems)

Disagree: Eficiente, Moritza (Likely dosent disagree anymore, although gonna keep her on the disagree list until im completely sure)

I could settle with a '2-C, likely 2-B' if it comes down to it. But I suppose we will see.
 
Roachman40 said:
probably gonna split the agree votes, considering we have agreed on multiple timelines but aren't really agreeing on if there are timelines that could grant a 2-B rating.

Agree with 2-B: transcending, Darkdragonmedeus, originlima, saikou, chariot (although seems to prefer a '2-C, likely 2-B' rating), wagy (6)

Agree with 2-C: Charmander, Esseso

Neutral: Infiniteday (although leaning towards agree with 2-B, it seems)

Disagree: Eficiente, Moritza (Likely dosent disagree anymore, although gonna keep her on the disagree list until im completely sure)

I could settle with a '2-C, likely 2-B' if it comes down to it. But I suppose we will see.
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I'm sorry, but the evidence for 2-B is actually not solid, it's not a matter of opinion. A hard rating for it would be impossible due to logic, votes cannot overwrite counterarguments that leave a huge room for doubt in your point.

You may claim something with a faulty proof, and people might agree with it, but it still wouldn't make to the profiles. I believe it's stated in the rules somewhere.
 
Roachman40 said:
probably gonna split the agree votes, considering we have agreed on multiple timelines but aren't really agreeing on if there are timelines that could grant a 2-B rating.

Agree with 2-B: transcending, Darkdragonmedeus, originlima, saikou, chariot (although seems to prefer a '2-C, likely 2-B' rating), wagy (6)

Agree with 2-C: Charmander, Esseso

Neutral: Infiniteday (although leaning towards agree with 2-B, it seems)

Disagree: Eficiente, Moritza (Likely dosent disagree anymore, although gonna keep her on the disagree list until im completely sure)

I could settle with a '2-C, likely 2-B' if it comes down to it. But I suppose we will see.
Click to expand...
Count how many staff support each option
 
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