The Masked Terror Vs The Boss (Dishonored Vs Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure) 6-5-1

[Shey]

While Crimson Emperor's Time Skip is formidable though randomly spamming it until he gets Corvo doesn't seem like a plausible tactic in my mind.

Funny considering Running and Erasing time while running towards his target is something he has done

projectiles wouldn't be able to connect as he can Continuously see the future And erase time until he gets within range of him

 

[Jackythejack]

Corvo seems like he has this more often than not. Abusing that range is really nice.

Corvo FRA.

 

[Eficiente]

This isn't why range was brought up. No one has disagreed with this?

Range was brought up because:

A. Corvo can just time stop + hit a ranged attack at Diavolo to one-shot. The point about range being an advantage for Corvo is the fact that whilst both of their time abilities allow them to gain an immediate advantage, Corvo can abuse this at a longer range. Diavolo has to get within two meters of Corvo to actually do anything to him whilst in time erase, whereas Corvo has ranged attacks that he can use in time stop to avoid this problem. Diavolo wouldn't be able to do anything within time stop as he has no

Nothing you've presented here is a counter to that argument, range was always in reference to time hax (Which Diavolo can't do anything as he doesn't resist time stop.

SBA dictates they start at 4KM (Diavolo has uni range, so by SBA this is true),range is definitely a factor here, especially in regard to two time haxxers who can essentially neg their opponents abilities to do anything. What matters is their ability to capitalize on this, which Corvo would have more capacity to do given his higher range, which is another reason it's advantage for Corvo and threat to Diavolo, not simply Corvo shooting them outright. I agree that Diavolo can counter range through blocking normally through his precog and shi, but he won't be able to do so in time stop.

Well, Diavolo's precog shows him the result of that, meaning: He tries to get close, gets one-shot out of range within stopped time, time goes back to normal & Diavolo's body reacts to this, the image of this is shown to a Diavolo trying to get close, he doesn't know what happen and so it's more likely for him to Erase Time preemptively and has otherwise an idea that 10 seconds from there is where the threat will come, Diavolo erases time, what Corvo did passes by in erased time and cause & consequence, Diavolo moves away from there safe, Corvo will be confused by the effect of KC before trying the same again.

He's gonna be 4KM away. He's not gonna be anywhere close to Corvo by the time time erasure is finished.

No, but he will now approach while hiding behind things. Having an idea of where his foe is while Corvo doesn't know where Diavolo is. Unless they're in an open field with not even trees, but by the plot you gave I imagine they're in a place similar to where Diavolo was first fought or something?

Firstly, multiple selves doesn't grant resistance to possession. That's not an inherent aspect of the power, nor is that accepted anywhere. Your'e incredulity about Corvo's ability to posess Diavolo on the ground of him having two souls is baseless. There's no reason he would need feats.

Well, possession is either by controlling the physical body, controlling the incorporeal mind or a mix of both, and if it's not said which one is it then it doesn't matter. To control someone with 2 minds would be like saying that someone with only feats of mindhaxing 1 person can do so just as well against 2.

I also don't care about Diavolo's ability to affect Corvo whilst Possession is active, nor if he's able to remain in control, as it's not relevant as to why it was brought up as a wincon. Possession was brought up because Corvo can sleep hax his opponent by exiting their body after a possession Corvo can choose to possess Diavolo, then end the ability to score an instant incap win. The wincon possession grants Corvo (and why it was brought up) was that it was effectively ranged sleep hax that didn't travel, which would beat Diavolo if it landed. Nothing you argued counters that wincon. Whether or not Diavolo can control or affect Corvo is irrelevant to the fact that corvo can leave his Diavolo's body (at will or duration) and incap him. There's no resistance on profile so I probably don't have to accept this lmao.

Can he do that on stopped time? He would need to not get detected entering Diavolo's body, do the other hax immediately and even then get lucky, as Diavolo can make Corvo's conscious unconscious if it's in his body.

Per reference, his Possession and ability to control the body he's in is attributed to him being one of 2 personalities, meaning that what he could do to Trish comes from what he could do to Doppio. He could only control Trish's body only via her stand because it wasn't his body, but could make her unconscious and mess with her memories even w/o using her stand. Against Corvo, he's not gonna have this restriction as it is his body. I'm soon making a CRT for this btw.

While Crimson Emperor's Time Skip is formidable though randomly spamming it until he gets Corvo doesn't seem like a plausible tactic in my mind. Epitaph's foresight is really useful as a counter to Corvo's Stealth but being that Corvo also can see the future they'd probably counter out each other.

Looking more into that power, it seems like a massive disadvantage. First, Corvo won't see KC's line of moves, only Diavolo's. But what's really bad is that the moves he will see are the same Time Erase removes, meaning before Diavolo erases time Corvo will act based on what he saw via Dark Vision, within erased time Corvo will still act based on what he saw via Dark Vision and if he's done with that he will think he's done with Diavolo, and then the situation resets with some confusion in Corvo's part.

 

[Shey]

I can't see Corvo actually doing anything to Diavolo, with his way of spamming Foresight and Erasing Time and Undesirable outcomes
Doesn't need to be stated this much but this is something he always does.
He will eventually sneak up and close that distance then does what KC does

 

[Arcker123]

Damn y’all mfs quick

Ill get back to this and respond in a min

If I’m not mistaken this is 4:2 Rn? I wanna update votes rn

 

[SomaKing13]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn;t there a whole there where because of how stands work, they can't be speed equaled? as it only equalizes the speed of the character (this case Diavolo) i remember this being an argument in several threads before. If that's the chaos, Corvo literally wouldn't be able to do anything, as it's two dudes and a MFTL invisible punch ghost backing one of them up (obviously this doesn't effect the range issue, but this would mean anything Corvo throws at him basically gets blocked or erased before he can even perceive what happened.)

 

[Arcker123]

Well, Diavolo's precog shows him the result of that, meaning: He tries to get close, gets one-shot out of range within stopped time, time goes back to normal & Diavolo's body reacts to this, the image of this is shown to a Diavolo trying to get close, he doesn't know what happen and so it's more likely for him to Erase Time preemptively and has otherwise an idea that 10 seconds from there is where the threat will come, Diavolo erases time, what Corvo did passes by in erased time and cause & consequence, Diavolo moves away from there safe, Corvo will be confused by the effect of KC before trying the same again.

Actually, I had a thought, what if Corvo activated Time Stop within Erased Time? People can still use their abilities within Erased Time, they just move along their predestined path which Diavolo sees and counters. If it's his destiny to use timestop, then he would.

Corvo can just use dark vision precog to counter this by simply precog'ing where Diavolo will move and simply using Blink (which has timestop and Corvo can spam) or simply stopping time outright with bend time. Dark Vision would be something IC for Corvo, especially in a proposed stealth scenario, and he can use it in conjunction with his other abilities (he can use dark vision and other abilities at the same time). Also, how would he be able to guess where the attacks come from when Corvo uses time stop, when he can't see where the attacks come from (He can't see within time stop), but only them hitting him and being in his body after time stop ends. That makes no sense.

Also, both of them will be surprised by their time abilities obv, and probably even less for Corvo as time shi and random abilities is stuff he fights daily in game, and time hax is a thing he fights whereas Diavolo has never fought another person with time powers.

No, but he will now approach while hiding behind things. Having an idea of where his foe is while Corvo doesn't know where Diavolo is. Unless they're in an open field with not even trees, but by the plot you gave I imagine they're in a place similar to where Diavolo was first fought or something?

I find the idea that Corvo is gonna be out-stealthed by Diavolo to be frankly ridiculous. Not only does Dark Vision completley neg any stealth attempt Diavolo makes by hiding behind things, but Corvo also moves through entire cities full of magical assassins' trying to kill him when he hunts his targets. SBA also guarantees they know the direction they are in. SBA puts this fight in a city (New York to be specific) which Corvo is used to traversing with shi like blink (which also has timestop and is spammable). Corvo out-stealthing is far more likely then Diavolo doing so unironically. Abilities like Dark Vision would also allow him to know where Diavolo is rather quickly.

If it's a stealth game, then Corvo would simply spot Diavolo first, given his monstrously better stealth skill, experience, traversal that is coupled with time stop that he can spam, things like his mask that will help him see long distances, dark vision (which will allow him to see exactly where Diavolo is and see his movements). Corvo would just oustealth and use timestop when he catches a glimpse of him to kill him. Diavolo would see where any potential attacks come and abuse his superior range to either time stop + range, or posess him (which you haven't countered). The idea Diavolo can guess where Corvo will attack from and where he is pretty absurd given the reasons I mentioned.

Well, possession is either by controlling the physical body, controlling the incorporeal mind or a mix of both, and if it's not said which one is it then it doesn't matter. To control someone with 2 minds would be like saying that someone with only feats of mindhaxing 1 person can do so just as well against 2.

Also, Dishonored 2 does show that his Possession can work on a person with multiple selves, Dr. Hyptia, so Diavolo and Doppio's weird thing going-on might not be able to protect him anyhow.

Corvo does have feats of possessing multiple selves anyway, as shown with the fact he can posses Hypatia, who has an alternate personality within her, so this isn't that relevant of a discussion.

Also, not analogous, it's still just one body being processed, where as mind hax involves two people's mind.

Can he do that on stopped time? He would need to not get detected entering Diavolo's body, do the other hax immediately and even then get lucky, as Diavolo can make Corvo's conscious unconscious if it's in his body.

Per reference, his Possession and ability to control the body he's in is attributed to him being one of 2 personalities, meaning that what he could do to Trish comes from what he could do to Doppio. He could only control Trish's body only via her stand because it wasn't his body, but could make her unconscious and mess with her memories even w/o using her stand. Against Corvo, he's not gonna have this restriction as it is his body. I'm soon making a CRT for this btw.

Yes, Corvo can use all of his magic and shi within stopped time.

Corvo has resistance to sleep manipulation, which means he inherently has resistance to being forced unconscious. Prove Diavolo can neg this resistance or Diavolo won't be able to forcefully render Corvo unconscious.

Again, none of this is a counter to the sleep hax wincon on Corvo's side. Corvo can sleep hax via exiting Diavolo's body, which happens either at will, or passively as Possession has a time limit that when up, Corvo exits their body. Even if Diavolo did do this (Which he can't), it wouldn't counter the possession/sleep hax thing, as it happens passively due to the time limit and Corvo exiting his body, which isn't something Diavolo can do anything against. Posession -> Sleep Hax will work on Diavolo.

Looking more into that power, it seems like a massive disadvantage. First, Corvo won't see KC's line of moves, only Diavolo's. But what's really bad is that the moves he will see are the same Time Erase removes, meaning before Diavolo erases time Corvo will act based on what he saw via Dark Vision, within erased time Corvo will still act based on what he saw via Dark Vision and if he's done with that he will think he's done with Diavolo, and then the situation resets with some confusion in Corvo's part.

KC is always next Diavolo, they travel together, so I don't see the relevance.

Besides, Corvo would see where Diavolo ends up after his skip due to precogging his movements. Even if time erases, he'd still be able to see where Diavolo would move. Say Diavolo wanted to time skip behind Corvo and Corvo has dark vision active. Even if he doesn't resist the skip itself, he'd still be able to see where Diavolo ends up, just as you're arguing Diavolo would do against Corvo's time stop now that I think about it. There is no reason to think KC acts as a counter to precognition at all.

I can't see Corvo actually doing anything to Diavolo, with his way of spamming Foresight and Erasing Time and Undesirable outcomes
Doesn't need to be stated this much but this is something he always does.
He will eventually sneak up and close that distance then does what KC does

Corvo is monstrously more skilled in stealth than Diavolo and fights teleporting mfer's who use stealth + numbers to jump in all of his games.

Corvo just spams Blink (A pseudo teleport Which timestops when used) + Dark Vision (X ray vision that will allow him to see Diavolo's outline, where he's looking, how much noise he and Diavolo are making, and see where he will move) in conjunction with his superior skill in stealth (Generally much better feats, accolades, and experience) to get the drop on Diavolo and time stop or possesses him for a quick win. Corvo can easily and continuously use his timestopping pseudo teleport to maintain his range advantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn;t there a whole there where because of how stands work, they can't be speed equaled? as it only equalizes the speed of the character (this case Diavolo) i remember this being an argument in several threads before. If that's the chaos, Corvo literally wouldn't be able to do anything, as it's two dudes and a MFTL invisible punch ghost backing one of them up (obviously this doesn't effect the range issue, but this would mean anything Corvo throws at him basically gets blocked or erased before he can even perceive what happened.)

Oh great . Well, I'll wait for more evidence/conformation on this.

Would Diavolo him self's reaction speed still be equalized if this was true? If so, then I actually may be able to respond to this.

Sorry this took a while.

 

[Eficiente]

Besides, Corvo would see where Diavolo ends up after his skip due to precogging his movements. Even if time erases, he'd still be able to see where Diavolo would move. Say Diavolo wanted to time skip behind Corvo and Corvo has dark vision active. Even if he doesn't resist the skip itself, he'd still be able to see where Diavolo ends up, just as you're arguing Diavolo would do against Corvo's time stop now that I think about it. There is no reason to think KC acts as a counter to precognition at all.

Starting with this as it's major. That's not true, Dark Vision will not show where would Diavolo end up after a time skip for the same reason why Epitaph doesn't show Diavolo where he will end up after a time skip. The future seen via precog is what's destined to happen, that's what Epitaph and in this context Dark Vision see, all those situations are what happen within erased time, leading up to what Diavolo saw, Time Erase ends and cause & consequence were changed. The precog of Dark Vision cannot see this change in cause & consequence simply because it is a change in cause & consequence, Dark Vision will only see what's originally meant to happen without Causality being manipulated, like Epitaph.

Corvo can just use dark vision precog to counter this by simply precog'ing where Diavolo will move and simply using Blink (which has timestop and Corvo can spam) or simply stopping time outright with bend time. Dark Vision would be something IC for Corvo, especially in a proposed stealth scenario, and he can use it in conjunction with his other abilities (he can use dark vision and other abilities at the same time). Also, how would he be able to guess where the attacks come from when Corvo uses time stop, when he can't see where the attacks come from (He can't see within time stop), but only them hitting him and being in his body after time stop ends. That makes no sense.

As said before, no he can't precog where will Diavolo move, only where he will not move, which is a huge disadvantage. Diavolo will see nothing of what happens within stopped time, but will see his body's reaction to it once time goes back to normal.

I find the idea that Corvo is gonna be out-stealthed by Diavolo to be frankly ridiculous. Not only does Dark Vision completley neg any stealth attempt Diavolo makes by hiding behind things, but Corvo also moves through entire cities full of magical assassins' trying to kill him when he hunts his targets. SBA also guarantees they know the direction they are in. SBA puts this fight in a city (New York to be specific) which Corvo is used to traversing with shi like blink (which also has timestop and is spammable). Corvo out-stealthing is far more likely then Diavolo doing so unironically. Abilities like Dark Vision would also allow him to know where Diavolo is rather quickly.

If it's a stealth game, then Corvo would simply spot Diavolo first, given his monstrously better stealth skill, experience, traversal that is coupled with time stop that he can spam, things like his mask that will help him see long distances, dark vision (which will allow him to see exactly where Diavolo is and see his movements). Corvo would just oustealth and use timestop when he catches a glimpse of him to kill him. Diavolo would see where any potential attacks come and abuse his superior range to either time stop + range, or posess him (which you haven't countered). The idea Diavolo can guess where Corvo will attack from and where he is pretty absurd given the reasons I mentioned.

Ok then, point taken. This is an disadvantage for Corvo.

Yes, Corvo can use all of his magic and shi within stopped time.

Corvo has resistance to sleep manipulation, which means he inherently has resistance to being forced unconscious. Prove Diavolo can neg this resistance or Diavolo won't be able to forcefully render Corvo unconscious.

Again, none of this is a counter to the sleep hax wincon on Corvo's side. Corvo can sleep hax via exiting Diavolo's body, which happens either at will, or passively as Possession has a time limit that when up, Corvo exits their body. Even if Diavolo did do this (Which he can't), it wouldn't counter the possession/sleep hax thing, as it happens passively due to the time limit and Corvo exiting his body, which isn't something Diavolo can do anything against. Posession -> Sleep Hax will work on Diavolo.

I'm not sure if being made unconscious and Resistance to Sleep Manip is the same, but ok with that.

If Corvo exits Diavolo's body on erased time, Diavolo won't sleep and Corvo will eat a punch.

 

[SomaKing13]

Starting with this as it's major. That's not true, Dark Vision will not show where would Diavolo end up after a time skip for the same reason why Epitaph doesn't show Diavolo where he will end up after a time skip. The future seen via precog is what's destined to happen, that's what Epitaph and in this context Dark Vision see, all those situations are what happen within erased time, leading up to what Diavolo saw, Time Erase ends and cause & consequence were changed. The precog of Dark Vision cannot see this change in cause & consequence simply because it is a change in cause & consequence, Dark Vision will only see what's originally meant to happen without Causality being manipulated, like Epitaph.

Especially considering from Corvo's perspective, time wasn't erased, he still did whatever he did during erased time, which is why it's so insanely disorientating for people outside of King Crimson's erased time, it feels like they teleported, they might be missing ammunition, or etc, the only time people have even remotely been able to counter it, is after preparation and prior intimate knowledge of how King Crimson works, and even then it's only partially effective.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

DIO vs Diavolo 2.0?

 

[Arcker123]

DIO vs Diavolo 2.0?

Ye, just with more Goonery

@Eficiente @Soma_King i’ll type up my biblical response prolly tommorow

 

[Peppersalt43]

Ye, just with more Goonery

@Eficiente @Soma_King i’ll type up my biblical response prolly tommorow

OK

 

[Arcker123]

OK

Working on some shi + lost interest in this thread.

 

[Arcker123]

Starting with this as it's major. That's not true, Dark Vision will not show where would Diavolo end up after a time skip for the same reason why Epitaph doesn't show Diavolo where he will end up after a time skip.

Can I have a scan for this? Anyhow, this isn't a feat of it bypassing precog any way as the simple rules of time erasure are it allows Diavolo to overcome the fate he sees. Which is not comparable to negating other forms of precog.

The future seen via precog is what's destined to happen, that's what Epitaph and in this context Dark Vision see, all those situations are what happen within erased time, leading up to what Diavolo saw, Time Erase ends and cause & consequence were changed. The precog of Dark Vision cannot see this change in cause & consequence simply because it is a change in cause & consequence, Dark Vision will only see what's originally meant to happen without Causality being manipulated, like Epitaph.

I see no reason to believe that this would operate on all forms of precogs rather than simply being a function of Diavolo's own precog.

As said before, no he can't precog where will Diavolo move, only where he will not move, which is a huge disadvantage. Diavolo will see nothing of what happens within stopped time, but will see his body's reaction to it once time goes back to normal.

I see no reason to believe that, and anyhow, Diavolo why would Diavolo be able to cover the hundreds of meters between the two to attack before time erase ends?

Ok then, point taken. This is an disadvantage for Corvo.

Yeah given the feats i've listed, and the revision's I made for Corvo's stealth intelligence their is just no argument for Diavolo being better at stealth than Corvo.

I'm not sure if being made unconscious and Resistance to Sleep Manip is the same, but ok with that.

If Corvo exits Diavolo's body on erased time, Diavolo won't sleep and Corvo will eat a punch.

Why would he be able to enter Diavolo's body in erased time when Diavolo cannot be interacted with due to temporal hax? There's no justification for that and this wincon does not work.

Especially considering from Corvo's perspective, time wasn't erased, he still did whatever he did during erased time, which is why it's so insanely disorientating for people outside of King Crimson's erased time, it feels like they teleported, they might be missing ammunition, or etc, the only time people have even remotely been able to counter it, is after preparation and prior intimate knowledge of how King Crimson works, and even then it's only partially effective.

Even if i granted your argument of Corvo not being able to precog where Diavolo moves in erased time, there's still the fact he needs to get close enough to Corvo to kill him before Corvo uses his timestop blinks or general time stop to simply reassess the situation, and since they are starting so vastly outside of Diavolo's effective range, this is hard to argue. I have no reason to accept that he would get close enough to Corvo to kill him before Corvo uses his timestopping blink to teleport to Diavolo and oneshot him with blink assault (Corvo in canon doesn't even need hand movement to blink and can blink with weapons in his hands) or simply using a time stop to **** Diavolo over.

If Corvo can use his hax in erased time, he'd also be able to use his timestop whilst in erased time, which makes things worse for Diavolo.

---

Apologies for the necro but this match is too interesting to die and I forgot about it tbh. This match only needs one more vote to end anyways so IG we can conclude it.

To address the concerns about speed blitzing, yes, KC having his speed makes it an advantage for Diavolo, but he needs to get within 2 meters to Corvo to actually use his advantage, and Corvo is simply able to use his superior ranged attacks and timestop to compensate.

I also disagree with Diavolo skipping over time stop or something. For one, if Corvo can activate it within a timeskip, he would be able to stop Diavolo's movements as Diavolo himself doesn't resist it. I guess this depends on if you think the phasing Diavolo's power gives him would be able to make him immune to temporal powers, but I disagree with Diavolo somehow skipping over Timestop for the reasons provided, as that doesn't seem to be how the ability works and Diavolo did lose to DIO. Diavolo wouldn't be able to precog what Corvo does in stopped time anyway as we don't assume precog powers can see events that happen in 0 time without feats.

I'm still confident in Corvo winning here.

 

[Deceived3596]

Corvo FRA

 

[Arcker123]

Corvo FRA

You had already voted...

I can't count your vote twice.

 

[Deceived3596]

You had already voted...

I can't count your vote twice.

I forgor

 

[Arcker123]

Bump

 

[Arcker123]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

Since this was an old thread, I don't remember much of it and would need to refamiliarize myself with the other character. But since I don't have interest on it, I drop my vote and I'm gonna unfollow this. I disagree with this

this isn't a feat of it bypassing precog any way as the simple rules of time erasure are it allows Diavolo to overcome the fate he sees.

but I don't care enough to go over it.

 

[Arcker123]

but I don't care enough to go over it.

Real.

 

[CBslayeR]

Yeah im not sure what stops Diavolo from spamming precog and TE then just ripping him apart here.


Diavolo will be effected by time stop but he's just gonna precog him doing it and hurting him and then just erase it even happening, while also disorienting you from it.

DIO also didn't beat Diavolo because TS > TE, he won because in character Diavolo goes for donuts which he can regenerate and then just blitz him with his stand that oneshots his, so I don't know why that's being used as a justification here

 

[Arcker123]

I'll respond to this in like an hour

 

[Arcker123]

@CBslayeR - I can assume you're voting Diavolo? It'd be nice to get a more accurate vote count.

Yeah im not sure what stops Diavolo from spamming precog and TE then just ripping him apart here.

The fact Corvo will be hundreds of meters away when the fight begins, and this range gap would lead him to use time stop and ranged attacks. DIavolo is human level in travel speed, he can't cross the hundreds of meters between him and Corvo in the ten or so seconds he needs to to actually get within distance to Corvo to harm him, and if Corvo simply activates time stop before or after a time skip, DIavolo is ******. I don't see a reason to think Diavolo could actually see what Corvo does in a time stop as those actions are literally happening in 0 time, which I see no reason to think Diavolo could actually see. He'd see COrvo entering the ability then see himself going splat (9-A versus 10-A dura) or simply getting knocked unconscious. There's also the factor that Diavolo IC would use Epitaph first to assess the future too see if it's favorable to him, which would allow Corvo to simply time stop and Za Warudo him.

This is mainly why I believe Corvo wins, if he activates Time Stop with either Bend Time or Redirective Blin k, he wins, whereas Diavolo's win cons need more extensive arguments as to how he overcomes factors like the range gap etc.

Diavolo will be effected by time stop but he's just gonna precog him doing it and hurting him and then just erase it even happening, while also disorienting you from it.

He can't actually stop Corvo using the ability, he can manuever himself before it happens, but he's never shown actually stopping people themselves from using their abilities within time erase, Bruno could still move and use zippers within it. He would at best remove Corvo's cognition of what's happening before he activates it, but if Time Stopping during the time erase allowed him to gain control of his actions again, Diavolo is ******. I also see no reason to believe Diavolo could see whatever Corvo does to him within a timestop for my prior reasons. I'd need more justification for that.

DIO also didn't beat Diavolo because TS > TE, he won because in character Diavolo goes for donuts which he can regenerate and then just blitz him with his stand that oneshots his, so I don't know why that's being used as a justification here

It's being used as justification for precedence on how Time Erasure interacts with Time Stop, nothing about winning because DIO won.

I personally think Corvo wins because there are less holes in his wincons then Diavolo.

 

[CBslayeR]

@CBslayeR - I can assume you're voting Diavolo? It'd be nice to get a more accurate vote count.

The fact Corvo will be hundreds of meters away when the fight begins, and this range gap would lead him to use time stop and ranged attacks. DIavolo is human level in travel speed, he can't cross the hundreds of meters between him and Corvo in the ten or so seconds he needs to to actually get within distance to Corvo to harm him, and if Corvo simply activates time stop before or after a time skip, DIavolo is ******. I don't see a reason to think Diavolo could actually see what Corvo does in a time stop as those actions are literally happening in 0 time, which I see no reason to think Diavolo could actually see. He'd see COrvo entering the ability then see himself going splat (9-A versus 10-A dura) or simply getting knocked unconscious. There's also the factor that Diavolo IC would use Epitaph first to assess the future too see if it's favorable to him, which would allow Corvo to simply time stop and Za Warudo him.

This is mainly why I believe Corvo wins, if he activates Time Stop with either Bend Time or Redirective Blin k, he wins, whereas Diavolo's win cons need more extensive arguments as to how he overcomes factors like the range gap etc.

He can't actually stop Corvo using the ability, he can manuever himself before it happens, but he's never shown actually stopping people themselves from using their abilities within time erase, Bruno could still move and use zippers within it. He would at best remove Corvo's cognition of what's happening before he activates it, but if Time Stopping during the time erase allowed him to gain control of his actions again, Diavolo is ******. I also see no reason to believe Diavolo could see whatever Corvo does to him within a timestop for my prior reasons. I'd need more justification for that.

It's being used as justification for precedence on how Time Erasure interacts with Time Stop, nothing about winning because DIO won.

I personally think Corvo wins because there are less holes in his wincons then Diavolo.

That's just not how TS would interact with TE, it's not a gradual erasure of time, its all at once, so he wouldn't be able to stop his TE during the duration of it.


He also spams precog always so he's not getting time stopped first, the only real time he doesn't have precog up is when he's landed a fatal blow or he's mid attack, which Corvo can't exploit due to speed equal not working with stands, so KC is still MFTL, this is also how he counters the range advantage, bro can just power through most of his projectiles or react to them since he doesn't have the NPI to hurt KC nor the AP.


Diavolo can't prevent Corvo from using TS or see within it which is true, but he can just nope the results away which will just effectively drain his mana, he won't be getting killed in it. Epitaph will likely just show Corvo teleporting and then he'll see himself dying after he teleports, which means he's just gonna TE it.


There's no evidence of TS working on Diavolo mid time erase either, if anything TE > TS due to just being able to erase the results of it, DIO and Jotaro's fights ended here because of other factors


Anyways yeah I'm voting Diavolo, I still don't see what stops him from doing epitaph + TE


Also knowing how long his TS is would be nice.

 

[Arcker123]

That's just not how TS would interact with TE, it's not a gradual erasure of time, its all at once, so he wouldn't be able to stop his TE during the duration of it.

How does what I said imply such?

This is also kinda vague? I have no clue how this is meant to refute what I said.

He also spams precog always so he's not getting time stopped first

It still takes him a time to actually read events, during which Corvo can activate time and GG him, that was my point. Why would I think that at equal reaction speed, Diavolo can somehow read the entirety of a ten second future before Corvo time stops.

the only real time he doesn't have precog up is when he's landed a fatal blow or he's mid attack, which Corvo can't exploit due to speed equal not working with stands, so KC is still MFTL, this is also how he counters the range advantage

This doesn't counter the fact that Diavolo doesn't have the travel speed to actually get close to Corvo to hurt him in any way because he has to get within 2 meters to actually do anything.

I don't disagree with KC being faster, but due to time stop, Corvo can just shoot projectiles at Diavolo without Diavolo being able to dodge.

bro can just power through most of his projectiles or react to them since he doesn't have the NPI to hurt KC nor the AP.

The main point not being addressed at all in your post is that you have given absolutely zero reason a guy with normal human travel speed could travel hundreds of meters within ten seconds to actually get within range to damage Corvo before the latter can use a time stop. Time Erasure won't help with closing that distance.

I don't disagree. Maybe i'd be a bit skeptical on how KC would block the entirety of like the splash of a grenade to prevent anything from hitting Diavolo but due to being MFTL it's whatev.

DIavolo will just be within time stop when Corvo is using his ranged options, that's the point here.

Diavolo can't prevent Corvo from using TS or see within it which is true, but he can just nope the results away which will just effectively drain his mana, he won't be getting killed in it.

Diavolo doesn't just magically erase events from a timeline or whatever as you're implying. He can simply gain the ability to "control his fate" by erasing time to dodge attacks in erased time whilst other people perform their fated actions without realizing, that is how he "erases cause whilst keeping effect". His ability is not as literal as you think and I have no reason to believe this, he can't literally just remove actions.

Diavolo would simply enter the time erase land, and when Corvo uses his time stop, he'd just regain his cognition back since Diavolo doesn't resist time stop and I have no reason to think the time erase effects would work in a stopped time when Diavolo himself has no resistance.

There's no evidence of TS working on Diavolo mid time erase either,

There's no resistance to time stop and we've conceded that powers still work in a time erase? It's your burden to prove it wouldn't work since the natural assumption is it wouldn't as time stop is also a universal time power and we have no reason to think the effects of a time erase would supercede or somehow persist within a time stop due to the lack of resistance.

if anything TE > TS due to just being able to erase the results of it,

His power doesn't work like that. He can't just make things "not happen," he just uses his intang and the fact nobody has any cognition of the erase to dodge, so he leaves the cause of his attack whilst overcoming the actual effect of dying. He can't do this to timestop as his lack of resistance would mean Corvo is attacking in zero time, and in real time his actions would be imperceivable.

He would precog Corvo using timestop then seeing himself dead or asleep (I still see no reason to think Diavolo could see what happens within a time stop) and then he'd time erase. He'd need to actually reposition himself from attacks, which he can't do with timestop because he has no resistance and timestop attacks happen in literally zero time.

DIO and Jotaro's fights ended here because of other factors

Cool? I never disagreed with that. I just think Corvo wins here because even best case scenario for Diavolo, he still has no argument for being able to get close without Corvo ever stopping time. Hell, with that alone this whole argument about how TS interacts with TE are kinda irrelevant compared to that major point.

 

[Arcker123]

Also, can I get clarity on this:

Diavolo's combat and reactions would be equalized to Corvo's, but KC's combat speed doesn't right.

If this is right, then it would just be that KC's ability to attack is MFTL, but the speed at which Diavolo could give it mental commands (Does KC have any feats of acting without Diavolo's input), is equalized to Corvo's combat and reactions?

If so, I don't see how this makes things too unfair tbh. He has an attack that's massively above Corvo, but it can only be effective at really blitzing at only 2 meters, and whether or not it could block attacks is dependent on how well Diavolo himself is able to react to them.

 

[WyattR612]

He can't actually stop Corvo using the ability, he can manuever himself before it happens, but he's never shown actually stopping people themselves from using their abilities within time erase, Bruno could still move and use zippers within it.

Diavolo would simply enter the time erase land, and when Corvo uses his time stop, he'd just regain his cognition back since Diavolo doesn't resist time stop and I have no reason to think the time erase effects would work in a stopped time when Diavolo himself has no resistance.

This is wrong; only their results remain. Diavolo mentions it several times, and that's why Aerosmith's bullets did not harm him. What is actually seen are a "simulation"/previsualization images of actions that would have occurred if time had not been erased (or rather, actions fated to happen), but not actual actions. Therefore, in fact, no ability has a true effect on erased time, including Time Stop.

 

[Arcker123]

Yall are taking this "only results remain" shit far too literally in a way the profiles don't actually accept.

During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him. Whilst everyone is unable to change their fate, Diavolo can freely move around as he pleases, often putting himself in a better position based on the aforementioned actions (though, it's important to note that Diavolo not only never interacts with others but is also exempt from attacks as well). Once the time is up, everyone else finds themselves where they would've been at the end of their actions, but with no memory of the time Diavolo "erased".

Nothing here actually mentions making events not happen.

Diavolo mentions it several times, and that's why Aerosmith's bullets did not harm him.

Aerosmith's bullets don't harm him not because Diavolo literally makes them never fire like you claim, we literally do see them fire (Which is support abilities still work in TE). They don't harm him because nothing can touch Diavolo when he's in a TE. Which is what I and the profile said, not this "He can literally make events unreal." This is such a ridiculously dishonest wank that isn't actually accepted.

What is actually seen are a "simulation"/previsualization images of actions that would have occurred if time had not been erased (or rather, actions fated to happen), but not actual actions.

Dude wtf. This is such a ridiculous headcanon. That's just the Precog that shows events before Erasure.

What happens in Time Erase happens in reality, thats literally why the disorientation works. When Abbachio "teleports to Giorno for example" not because he never walked over to Giorno, but because he did, and he had no awareness of it. Time passed, that ten seconds happened, but are "erased" in the sense that only Diavolo can move freely from fate and be aware, whilst Abbachio isn't.

Therefore, in fact, no ability has a true effect on erased time, including Time Stop.

Why would I assume another time ability with the same range wouldn't be able to stop the time erasure if time still moves within it.

Edit: Diavolo does not literally make Damage and such un real by erasing time. What he does is escape his fated death by Time Erase allowing him to phase through the attacks that would kill him, all the actions that would lead to his death still happen, they just can't kill Diavolo due to the phasing and them being unaware of time's passing/being slaves to fate.

Edit 2: This confusion is why it's a far more accurate nomenclature to call Diavolo's ability a time skip rather than a time erasure.

Diavolo takes ten seconds in time, and in these ten seconds are skipped over, for everyone who isn't Diavolo, and thus they have no memory of what happens or control over their actions, but their actions still happen in real time. Analogize it to skipping over an event in a movie, if you skip over ten seconds in a movie, you don't remember what happens in them, nor do you have any control over them, but the events in that skipped it still happen and still lead to events in the plot. To keep the analogy to a movie, imagine if Diavolo is someone with knowledge of the script, and the free will to change what happens to his character in said script. He can't affect what other people do, but he can escape his own fate/story by remaining cognizant during this skipped over period. This is what we accept on profiles, hope that makes sense.

 

[WyattR612]

Yall are taking this "only results remain" shit far too literally in a way the profiles don't actually accept.

ngl profile kinda outdated in details, im doing a new one but since college, i dont think its finished till' 2024

Nothing here actually mentions making events not happen.

Aerosmith's bullets don't harm him not because Diavolo literally makes them never fire like you claim, we literally do see them fire (Which is support abilities still work in TE).

Dude wtf. This is such a ridiculous headcanon. That's just the Precog that shows events before Erasure.

Except Diavolo literally mentions it

Isn't actual actions, but trails of future actions. I like the way that Chariot described as "holograms" of fated actions.

Aerosmith's bullets don't harm him not because Diavolo literally makes them never fire like you claim, we literally do see them fire (Which is support abilities still work in TE).

I quote this again to provide additional evidence, which is Diavolo (and even the guides) mentioning that no one moves during erased time, which makes sense since no one exists (as shown in the second image, where Diavolo explicitly stated that nothing exists in the world during Time Erase).

What happens in Time Erase happens in reality, thats literally why the disorientation works. When Abbachio "teleports to Giorno for example" not because he never walked over to Giorno, but because he did, and he had no awareness of it. Time passed, that ten seconds happened, but are "erased" in the sense that only Diavolo can move freely from fate and be aware, whilst Abbachio isn't.

Bruh, literally Diavolo tells you that no one and nothing exists, and as I attached, no one moves. Simply put, from point A before erased time, they immediately transition to point B once erased time is over. During that interval, they are nothing more than holograms, trails, previsualization or how tf you want to say of the actions they would have taken, as shown in the first image.

I would like to explain it better right now, but there is a language barrier that prevents me. Nevertheless, I am confident that once the profile is ready, the ability will be fully understood.

 

[Arcker123]

Moyai. You're better off making an actual CRT for this tbh. None of this "events don't actually happen in time erase" is not accepted on profiles at all, is contradicted by what is accepted on them, and is thus irrelevant to the versus thread.

ngl profile kinda outdated in details, im doing a new one but since college, i dont think its finished till' 2024

I still disagree with the idea that events don't happen within Time Erasure. Abbachio doesn't make any sense if he didn't literally move there, he just didn't remember it.

Except Diavolo literally mentions it

Isn't actual actions, but trails of future actions. I like the way that Chariot described as "holograms" of fated actions.

The fact he can see what they will do in the future literally means that these things are actually happening if they are seen to be fated to occur, how can there be future actions for unreal actions, that doesn't make any sense. This isn't a defeater to my claim, all this means is that Diavolo can see the future of what happens within a skip even without Epitaph neccesarily. He sees what Bruno will do from his current position, not that Bruno is just a hologram.

If Chariot agrees that events within Time Erase don't actually happen/time doesn't pass or anything like you claim i'd be happy to discuss this.

I quote this again to provide additional evidence, which is Diavolo (and even the guides) mentioning that no one moves during erased time, which makes sense since no one exists (as shown in the second image, where Diavolo explicitly stated that nothing exists in the world during Time Erase).

He does not say anything close to what you're saying he did.

The first scan is just referencing how GER is able to move freely and outside of Diavolo's predictions, which again proves that what happens within a time erase are real.

The second scan in context is just saying that due to erasing time, only the result of Risotto being shot remains, not anything that happens to Diavolo. You're taking extremely figurative and intentionally confusing language hyper literally in ways that contradict the actual showings of the ability.

If Narancia attacking him isn't real, why is this being used to show that Diavolo can't be interacted with during a skip and thus can avoid damage, if it couldn't damage him either way via not being real. Why would him not being able to attack Polnareff during a skip emphasized if that isn't even a real polnareff?

Bruh, literally Diavolo tells you that no one and nothing exists, and as I attached, no one moves. Simply put, from point A before erased time, they immediately transition to point B once erased time is over. During that interval, they are nothing more than holograms, trails, previsualization or how tf you want to say of the actions they would have taken, as shown in the first image.

He never says this in any scan, again you're taking him hyper literally in ways that don't actually make sense. Nothing states that things move from point a to point B instantly, and the fact the memory aspect of the ability exists proves the events are real, as how King Crimson disorients is by robbing people of their cognition of the journey to point a to b, not that it doesn't happen.

Why would it be emphasized he can't take damage during a skip if there aren't any real attacks?

Also, how does the Narancia example work under your interpretation, if it just teleports from point A to Point B, it would've hurt Diavolo as that's it's fated goal. The only way this makes sense is if you assume they actually do travel but just can't touch Diavolo.

 

[WyattR612]

Moyai. You're better off making an actual CRT for this tbh.

Sure, it will be done in time.

I still disagree with the idea that events don't happen within Time Erasure. Abbachio doesn't make any sense if he didn't literally move there, he just didn't remember it.

Literally Diavolo says just results remain. His enterely action of move is erased.

The fact he can see what they will do in the future literally means that these things are actually happening if they are seen to be fated to occur, how can there be future actions for unreal actions, that doesn't make any sense.

Because those traces of actions they would have taken remain. Even if you look at the panel in the manga again, Bruno doesn't move at all; he remains in the same position (although in reality, he doesn't exist, which is why he cannot interact either) and shows the actions he would have committed in the future, or as I mentioned, if time had not been erased.

If Chariot agrees that events within Time Erase don't actually happen/time doesn't pass or anything like you claim i'd be happy to discuss this.

Sure, you could ask him in his wall to participate here, but most likely, another King Crimson thread would bother him, especially someone not understanding the ability for the umpteenth time.

The first scan is just referencing how GER is able to move freely and outside of Diavolo's predictions,

Ok this is ACTUALLY a headcanon of something being explicitely, include in the guides with no other interpretation.

The second scan in context is just saying that due to erasing time, only the result of Risotto being shot remains, not anything that happens to Diavolo. You're taking extremely figurative and intentionally confusing language hyper literally in ways that contradict the actual showings of the ability.

Idk maybe I could ignore all the manga material, the anime, the guides, the novels, the games, and even the author where he explicitly says that he erases time, if that's what you mean, even in the edit of your previous post.

If Narancia attacking him isn't real, why is this being used to show that Diavolo can't be interacted with during a skip and thus can avoid damage, if it couldn't damage him either way via not being real. Why would him not being able to attack Polnareff during a skip emphasized if that isn't even a real polnareff?

Literally no relevant point you mentioned here tbh, if cannot attack them is because they didn't exist, idk why the "emphasized" is relevant

Also, how does the Narancia example work under your interpretation, if it just teleports from point A to Point B, it would've hurt Diavolo as that's it's fated goal. The only way this makes sense is if you assume they actually do travel but just can't touch Diavolo.

Honestly i dont get what you trying to say against here lol

But well, here's already night and i need to study, so tomorrow i can maybe I can clarify this better, if Chariot doesn't appear giving a bible

 

[Arcker123]

I don't appreciate you accusing me of not knowing how the ability works when you continue to make claims that are blatantly unaccepeted here. I'm just gonna drop a general debunk post.

https://imgur.com/gallery/E1r9U4c

The ability skips through time, not skipping past it like you claim. The time it skips through still exists, hence why it's claimed that people still read pages in books, they just don't remember them do to time being skipped. That means the events in time erase (reading the pages) still happen and are real, people just don't remember them.People don't experience/remember this time, but it still happens. That's what it means to skip through time as I said here.

You're taking the word erasure far to literally and applying it in ways that are unsupported. Erasure in context doesn't mean the events aren't happening, but are skipped over, which is supported by the stand stats. Your crt will never pass and this is irrelevant to my debate here until it gets passed. This better explains the power and why events happening within time erase not happening is incoherent.

Edit 2: This confusion is why it's a far more accurate nomenclature to call Diavolo's ability a time skip rather than a time erasure.

Diavolo takes ten seconds in time, and in these ten seconds are skipped over, for everyone who isn't Diavolo, and thus they have no memory of what happens or control over their actions, but their actions still happen in real time. Analogize it to skipping over an event in a movie, if you skip over ten seconds in a movie, you don't remember what happens in them, nor do you have any control over them, but the events in that skipped it still happen and still lead to events in the plot. To keep the analogy to a movie, imagine if Diavolo is someone with knowledge of the script, and the free will to change what happens to his character in said script. He can't affect what other people do, but he can escape his own fate/story by remaining cognizant during this skipped over period. This is what we accept on profiles, hope that makes sense.

 

[Chariot190]

Events don't happen. Nothing happens tbh. Nothing even exists really side of Diavolo, they make it quite clear that when time skip is up, everything within that timeframe no longer exists and are just superimposed images of what should be happening as established in GoGo well actually it's established in his debut, when he says "forecasts", as explained in GoGo he doesn't mean Epitaph, the images are called that, enabling Diavolo to like, ya know, act accordingly ig.
It's the WHOLE reason why he can't attack in time skip too (As stated in veller), there's nothing to attack, they don't exist at the time and all actions have no meaning, and why he can't be effected and shit just phases through him too, they don't actually exist to interact with him. The guides flesh it out but as posted above, he makes it kinda explicit in his debut and following arc.

Also, also, a blog's been being worked for awhile compiling on the King Crimson lore, mechanics and supplementary info and details from shit so tbh shouldn't be much longer till that drops im finishing mm first though **** you

 

[Arcker123]

Are you talking about this by any chance? I looked up KC in Gogo on Google and found this.

Google Image Result for https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/1c099c55-6f79-4471-bc49-69e6b42092b1

 

[Chariot190]

That's like, half of it, King Crimson's time-based ability is also clarified in the Stand Ability section toward the end of the book.
And there's two guides, Veller too.

But nah dude, don't tell me you're one of those "he only deletes perception of time" dudes, him actually deleting time is so explicit and stated verbatim, even going so far as to explain that's why he can't just kill people in it and why he can't be attacked.

And btw we do accept that, we accept that shit as him deleting time, full-on.

 

[Chariot190]

"In a world where time has vanished. All actions have no meaning except King Crimsons" - actual line using Aerosmith's attacks straight up not interacting with Diavolo as an example
and that's just one of like 30

 

[Arcker123]

. I'm simply skeptical of the claim of the idea that events that are skipped over/erased do not actually happen. I so far haven't seen any sufficient justification for that claim nor have I seen any argument that it's accepted on profiles.

That's like, half of it, King Crimson's time-based ability is also clarified in the Stand Ability section toward the end of the book.

I would hope so. Nothing here actually justifies the claim the skipped over events aren't real/don't happen.

And there's two guides, Veller too.

I posted the Veller scan as well. Says nothing about the events being unreal.

But nah dude, don't tell me you're one of those "he only deletes perception of time" dudes, him actually deleting time is so explicit and stated verbatim, even going so far as to explain that's why he can't just kill people in it and why he can't be attacked.

I never made any such claim. All I said is that I believe the events are still real and that's how it's accepted here rn. None of that is saying it's only perception or whatever.

And btw we do accept that, we accept that shit as him deleting time, full-on.

Uh I doubt that.

During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him. Whilst everyone is unable to change their fate, Diavolo can freely move around as he pleases, often putting himself in a better position based on the aforementioned actions (though, it's important to note that Diavolo not only never interacts with others but is also exempt from attacks as well)

This seems to be inconsistent with the claim the events are unreal.

"In a world where time has vanished. All actions have no meaning except King Crimsons" - actual line using Aerosmith's attacks straight up not interacting with Diavolo as an example
and that's just one of like 30

This is not proof the actions are unreal? What would it mean to say that actions have meaning or not if we're talking about unreal events? The fact there's a meaningful distinction between the acts having meaning or not implies they're real.

Edit: Actions having no meaning isn't evidence they aren't real. Those are two separate claims that do not entail each other.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm simply skeptical of the claim of the idea that events that are skipped over/erased do not actually happen. I so far haven't seen any sufficient justification for that claim nor have I seen any argument that it's accepted on profiles.

Being unreasonably skeptical despite being blatantly obvious and is like, his whole thing, is a you issue my dude, it'd be like being skeptical if Made in Heaven actually manipulated gravity because it accelerated time as a byproduct of that gravity manip.
Profile says multiple times that he erases time, actions don't happen, etc.

I would hope so. Nothing here actually justifies the claim the skipped over events aren't real/don't happen.

What? You realize that time "skip" is the hyperbole right and what he's actually doing is deleting time itself right? As explicitly noted as far back as his Stats (among other times but that's a non-character view statement by an omniscient narrator within the manga itself; which make a point of saying "he skips time, to be precise he's actually deleting it lmao". The fact it clarified the mechanics on what he's actually doing after saying he "skips" time should be where the debate ended. The fact the actual kanji used is more explicit too and is a destructive word akin to annihilates or destroys, is even more telling.

I posted the Veller scan as well. Says nothing about the events being unreal.

No you didn't? The scan I just posted was Vel?

I never made any such claim. All I said is that I believe the events are still real and that's how it's accepted here rn. None of that is saying it's only perception or whatever.

Ok maybe the issue here is what we define as "real", let me be more precise than, the events "don't happen", is that better?
And that IS accepted, it's why he has causality manipulation, he deletes the cause, leaving only the result.
The cause, the process, of say attacking, did not happen. Idk why you're saying that's how we accept it when we literally don't and he has several abilities based around how we don't accept what you say.

Uh I doubt that.

That's why the profle says time and time again he deletes time of the world?
" Time Erasure and Causality Manipulation (King Crimson can erase up to ten seconds of time, removing space in the process. With this it allows him to erase all the process of the actions done in the erased time, leaving only its results)"

He explicitly erases actions, they do not happen, only the result once time resumes happen. This is accepted.

This is not proof the actions are unreal? What would it mean to say that actions have meaning or not if we're talking about unreal events? The fact there's a meaningful distinction between the acts having meaning or not implies they're real.

Why do you think they don't, they've been erased my dude

This is not proof the actions are unreal? What would it mean to say that actions have meaning or not if we're talking about unreal events? The fact there's a meaningful distinction between the acts having meaning or not implies they're real.

It was proof time is legitimately not there, vanished, gone, buh bye. But, why do you think actions don't have meaning? Time is gone, everything that happens between Point A and Point B don't have meaning because they've been deleted leaving only the results after the fact

The fact there's a distinction is it saying they don't happen my dude, they aren't even actually there, surely you seen the like 5 images posted that say "yeah, what he's seeing when his ability active is actually just images", which we also accept

" During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him. Whilst everyone is unable to change their fate, Diavolo can freely move around as he pleases, often putting himself in a better position based on the aforementioned actions (though, it's important to note that Diavolo not only never interacts with others but is also exempt from attacks as well)."

That should be a red flag to you, if what he's seeing isn't actually the people and attacks, but just images of them overlaid around him, what makes you think it's actually happening if the people doing them aren't even actually being seen?

Like yes, of course, nobody remembers actions they took, but you're taking the fact it says actions at all and missing the whole reason WHY they don't remember, it's because the time in which the actions transpired were deleted. Kinda missing the forest for the tree here.

Anyway, is this because of time stop right? Why the hell would time stop work in a world without time?

 

[Arcker123]

I just think now there's just some logical problems in assuming that TE means events are unreal, as well as a lack of convincing case for that claim. There's just multiple equally valid ways to interpret all the evidence that don't lead to these problems, so why would I accept that premise?

Being unreasonably skeptical despite being blatantly obvious and is like, his whole thing, is a you issue my dude,

I have seen no good argument for that claim so I'm skeptical amd the claims that its obvious have holess. Any honest interlocutor should do that.

it'd be like being skeptical if Made in Heaven actually manipulated gravity because it accelerated time as a byproduct of that gravity manip.

I have no clue how you think this is analogous, but this is irrelevant to the claim that claims about another ability are unjustified.

Profile says multiple times that he erases time, actions don't happen, etc.

Could you actually show that? So far it seems like best you can do is its accepted to erase, but it never actually states that events are considered to not exist.

Erasure can have many interpretations, and you haven't shown anything that would prove this specific one is accepted.

What? You realize that time "skip" is the hyperbole right and what he's actually doing is deleting time itself right?

Uh no? What reason could you give me to believe that skipping isn't an accurate way to describe it if it's stated to be a simple way to put it? I have no reason to believe it's hyperbolic (Which i never actually claimed "Erasure" was to be clear). Erasure can just be used as synonymous with skipping in this context, you'd need to give a reason to believe otherwise especially when it's contextualized by being a skip.

This also doesn't address my argument that the examples given in the Vell shit are just blatantly inconsistent with the events not happening. How can you read a book and then not read a book (Due to the events not being real) within the time erase at the same time. That's blatantly contradictory.

As explicitly noted as far back as his Stats (among other times but that's a non-character view statement by an omniscient narrator within the manga itself; which make a point of saying "he skips time, to be precise he's actually deleting it lmao"

You couldn't prove it's saying "It deletes it to the point the events aren't real." Simply saying, it 'erases it" is not proof enough given the inherent vagueness of the usage, and the fact that Erasure in context is supposed to be boiled down to skipping.

Skipping is still meant to be an accurate way to conceive of the Time Erase, as that's just what it means to say "simply put, this ability skips through time." Skipping is directly meant to be accurate, but when going more in depth, they use the word erasure. This should tell you that erasure doesn't in this context mean what you think it does, if it did, Skipping wouldn't be an accurate way to simplify things.
My interpretation is better simply because it doesn't lead to any contradictions like the ones I previously pointed out.

The fact it clarified the mechanics on what he's actually doing after saying he "skips" time should be where the debate ended. The fact the actual kanji used is more explicit too and is a destructive word akin to annihilates or destroys, is even more telling.

Again, you couldn't prove the interpretation that it's saying it deletes events, and you never reconciled the contradictions I raised with such an interpretation. That's where the debate lies.

All the Kanji proves is that the word usage is destroyed. It doesn't prove the events are unreal, nor skipping being inaccurate. If skipping was an inaccurate way to put it, it wouldn't say skipping is a simpler way to think of the ability.

No you didn't? The scan I just posted was Vel?

I'm under the impression that all the stand stat shi come from vel, but this isn't really relevant so whatev.

Ok maybe the issue here is what we define as "real", let me be more precise than, the events "don't happen", is that better?

There's no distinction here. I get that it's easier phraseology to use, but there's no meaningful distinction between saying the events aren't real and saying they didn't happen. Imma keep using my phraseology.

And that IS accepted, it's why he has causality manipulation, he deletes the cause, leaving only the result.
The cause, the process, of say attacking, did not happen. Idk why you're saying that's how we accept it when we literally don't and he has several abilities based around how we don't accept what you say.

I claimed that it wasn't accepted because we seem to describe the ability in a way that is inconsistent with the events not actually being real, such as all the descriptions in the notable technique sections. It still also uses the erasure terminology which i'm still hesitant about.

Nobody would have any reason to think that the events are literally unreal as claimed here by reading that profile.

That's why the profle says time and time again he deletes time of the world?
" Time Erasure and Causality Manipulation (King Crimson can erase up to ten seconds of time, removing space in the process. With this it allows him to erase all the process of the actions done in the erased time, leaving only its results)"

He explicitly erases actions, they do not happen, only the result once time resumes happen. This is accepted.

Again, the erasure terminology is unclear here and no attempt in the justification is found to actually figure out what it means. The fact that the terminology is so unclear and the fact we accept things that contradict such an interpretation is why I claimed what I claimed.

No reasonable person would look at this and deduce the meaning to be "All the events are completely unreal." You need more justification for that than this.

Why do you think they don't, they've been erased my dude

Because if they didn't happen, then the person in the example given by the stand stats both reads the book (Stated to databook) and didn't read the book (There are no real events within erased time apparently, which means there is no reading) at the same time. There is a contradiction entailed by your interpretation that you haven't addressed.

It was proof time is legitimately not there, vanished, gone, buh bye.

Uh ok?

How does this offer a defeater to the idea that actions are real within a time erase? Even if i granted you time is literally just not there, i'd need another reason to think this applies to actions not being real, there are multiple ways you could take this without actions being unreal. It could just be a literal world without time, but actions are still there. You have no reason to accept one over the other.

But, why do you think actions don't have meaning? Time is gone, everything that happens between Point A and Point B don't have meaning because they've been deleted leaving only the results after the fact

You'd need to prove that and I have no reason to accept that. It doesn't follow from the fact that PA to PB have no meaning means they didn't actually happen.

It can just mean they didn't hurt Diavolo or sum. This isn't an actual proof.

The fact there's a distinction is it saying they don't happen my dude, they aren't even actually there, surely you seen the like 5 images posted that say "yeah, what he's seeing when his ability active is actually just images", which we also accept

No? The fact theres a meaningful distinction between meaningful and meaningless entails it's real, as it simply means there is an attack that could or could not have been successful. The fact that there's such a criterion entails the attack exists.

A nonexistent attack can't fail or not fail to do something, they don't exist.

You could point to nowhere in the profile that says what DIavolo sees are actually unreal holograms or whatever.

" During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him. Whilst everyone is unable to change their fate, Diavolo can freely move around as he pleases, often putting himself in a better position based on the aforementioned actions (though, it's important to note that Diavolo not only never interacts with others but is also exempt from attacks as well)."

That should be a red flag to you, if what he's seeing isn't actually the people and attacks, but just images of them overlaid around him, what makes you think it's actually happening if the people doing them aren't even actually being seen?

Like yes, of course, nobody remembers actions they took, but you're taking the fact it says actions at all and missing the whole reason WHY they don't remember, it's because the time in which the actions transpired were deleted. Kinda missing the forest for the tree here.

You could not prove any of that. You couldn't prove that he doesn't actually see Bruno there, he never says that, what he says is that he can forecast the trails of Bruno's movement, which literally doesn't prove he isn't seeing Bruno.

You have no justification for claiming the reason he phases through things or the reason people do not remember is because of the fact the attacks simply didn't happen, and there are far too many unaddressed problems with that to actually accept rn.

The fact that they don't remember the attacks means there were attacks in erased time, as that's just what it means to say you don't remember something. Nonexsistent things can't have properties like being meaningless or being forgotten, you can't attach properties to nothingness, as that would make it not nothing by definition. The fact the databooks can even predicate on the properties of the erased attacks means they are real.

Anyway, is this because of time stop right? Why the hell would time stop work in a world without time?

Bend time works in the void which is timeless

Also, unless you think the passage of events that Diavolo happens without time, how can Time Erase be literally timeless?