The Masked Terror Vs The Boss (Dishonored Vs Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure) 6-5-1

[Chariot190]

I just think now there's just some logical problems in assuming that TE means events are unreal, as well as a lack of convincing case for that claim. There's just multiple equally valid ways to interpret all the evidence that don't lead to these problems, so why would I accept that premise?

Because that's unironically what happens?
Like maybe if you start making up shit yeah, you can explain anything that way by making up whole new rules and additions.

I have no clue how you think this is analogous, but this is irrelevant to the claim that claims about another ability are unjustified.

You're arguing because one thing is the case, something else isn't true. Because someone had read a book, or because they dont remember a thing, it must be because it happened, without taking into account WHY they don't.

Could you actually show that? So far it seems like best you can do is its accepted to erase, but it never actually states that events are considered to not exist.

What? The hell do you think "erasing" time means? That window of time is just gone my dude.
And it actually does, the cause is gone, leaving only the effect. Which is said, many, many, times.

Erasure can have many interpretations, and you haven't shown anything that would prove this specific one is accepted.

I did though?
And no, it can't what the **** are you on? It deletes time, time is gone, nothing that happens within that timeframe remains. We are told this effects time itself, we are told that time vanishes from the world. We are told so many clear-cut statements that the fact you think this is open for interpretation is about on par as thinking The World stopping time is, except King Crimson actually has MORE statements and feats.

Stop trying to extrapolate a bunch of wacky shit and made up "interpretations" for an ability that they can't go five seconds without shoving down your throat to the point the manga gets kinda annoying with it, like yeah we get it.

Uh no? What reason could you give me to believe that skipping isn't an accurate way to describe it if it's stated to be a simple way to put it? I have no reason to believe it's hyperbolic (Which i never actually claimed "Erasure" was to be clear). Erasure can just be used as synonymous with skipping in this context, you'd need to give a reason to believe otherwise especially when it's contextualized by being a skip.

Because the manga LITERALLY says as much?
In the stats which YOU had made note of, it says

"Simply put, this Stand can skip through Time. More precisely, it erases a dozen-odd seconds of time. During which only it can act. When time is erased no humans or life in this world will experience this period, of course, they will retain no memory of it either."
The kanji itself even more explicit, using kanji like "
*簡単
1. simple; easy; uncomplicated
2. brief; quick; light
and
*正確
1. accurate; correct; precise; exact


When describing terms, the "it skips time" is just a quick, easy to grasp way to think about it, but it isn't correct. What he actually does is delete time.
This alone, straight from the manga, straight from an informed source, tells us "yeah it isnt ACTUALLY skipping time, what he's actually doing is deleting time", and when time is gone, nothing will experience it, because it says that too, and then Diavolo doubles down on it.

You're taking the end bit of the bio of going "well it lists off an action so...", like yeah no shit it does? It's giving an effective example, of course birds appear to teleport, the time in which they flew was deleted so they went from Point A to B spontaneously. Of course a dude wouldn't remember how far into a book they read, the part they read was deleted so he's suddenly ahead yet.

Erasure most definitely ISN'T synonymous, it's an easy-to-understand misnomer, it might not be correct, but it gets the point across. We're told explicitly that time no longer exists, I sent a scan above saying time vanishes from the world.

Jesus Christ we have Diavolo straight up saying "The entire world within that interval is erased" / "I deleted the entire process". Your interpretation is objectively wrong here.


This scan here, just this one. Tears apart any semblance of any argument you might have. He's literally saying the whole word is gone, the process (cause and actions) are gone, and only the result after the fact remains, all while a spooky ability can't even interact with him as he says it, because of course it can't, everything and the process is gone, which is WHY he's saying it btw. And hell, we have WoG flat-out saying time vanished in that exact panel as mentioned above, like the scan I posted? It's talking about this panel when it says time is gone from the world and actions hold no meaning, because as we know from the scan it's referencing, the process of said actions and world is gone, yeah no shit actions hold zero meaning.

This also doesn't address my argument that the examples given in the Vell shit are just blatantly inconsistent with the events not happening. How can you read a book and then not read a book (Due to the events not being real) within the time erase at the same time. That's blatantly contradictory.

Because fate? And because they didn't? What the **** my dude, they didn't LITERALLY read a book, that isn't what it's saying, it's just saying "Wow a dude was reading a book, bro on page 10, Diavolo skips time and after time resumes, bro is on Page 11, and the dude is confused and doesnt remember having read up to page 11".
That is what it's saying, it should be obvious even, how are you getting "oh well he DID read that book, it actually happened", how can it happen when the process is gone, the world and he is gone, and all that's left is forecasted images and no time at all? You're misunderstanding what it's trying to convey bro...

I'm under the impression that all the stand stat shi come from vel, but this isn't really relevant so whatev.

Huh? That's from the manga? The only vel scan posted was that one scan saying time vanishes from the world and actions are meaningless.
And that was from ME. The manga started doing stand stats as of Part 5, continued in 6, and in 7 in it swapped for infographics. Part 3 and 4 don't have stats tho, though they all come from guides, except Stands like Plat and Chariot who show up again.
Though you just outted yourself as talking from ignorance and having not read the manga given almost every ch features those things at the end of them, precisely because the japanese audience at the time were having trouble understanding some stands as a whole and araki wanted to help ease that

You couldn't prove it's saying "It deletes it to the point the events aren't real." Simply saying, it 'erases it" is not proof enough given the inherent vagueness of the usage, and the fact that Erasure in context is supposed to be boiled down to skipping.

nah im pretty sure it aint that vague

Diavolo LITERALLY says he deletes time, the process, cause, and the entire world, We have INNUMERABLE statements saying time is quite literally affected, time does not exist, and time is gone from the world.
And the **** do you mean "the usage is vague", bro drops a whole-ass exposition twice to clarify what he means when he says time goes buh-bye.

TProof? Wyatt gave you some solid-ass proof in the form of explicit statements, It's like the ONLY thing he does, you've been given proof, no offense but kinda comes off as doing mental gymnastics to twist what it means to not mean it.

There's no distinction here. I get that it's easier phraseology to use, but there's no meaningful distinction between saying the events aren't real and saying they didn't happen. Imma keep using my phraseology.

What? "He skips time, but ACTUALLY he deletes times lmao". If there was no distinction, they wouldn't actually clarify and say "hey, to actually be correct".

Ok, well, they don't happen. And it's accepted, it's why got causality manip, the process of things ceases, and only the results of what would have occurred happen because of fucky jojo fate stuff and guaranteed futures and whatever.

Because if they didn't happen, then the person in the example given by the stand stats both reads the book (Stated to databook) and didn't read the book (There are no real events within erased time apparently, which means there is no reading) at the same time. There is a contradiction entailed by your interpretation that you haven't addressed.

No way that's your argument...

The RESULTS remain for everyone but Diavolo (He says this like, 8 times in the manga alone).
The actual act of reading the book didn't happen, but the result from them reading it did.
He says so many goddamn times he deletes the cause but keeps the effect. And because of Epitaph and fate as a whole, anything that is fated to happen will arrive at the conclusion as it should be?
All except him anyway, which he uses to avoid bad shit happening to himself, but not others. It's the whole purpose of his Stand and why he calls people sleeping slaves of fate, and how he's at the apex of fate and how he avoids all the pitfalls of fate and this and that, it's his whole character, and also why he was beaten by never being able to get the result, he was so fixated on avoiding shit, deleting whatever he didn't like, and only giving a **** about the results, his fate was to never reach the result of death and be forced to experience the process of dying for eternity ik im kinda going on a tangent here, but what I'm getting at is that this is s explicit and integral to him as a whole, the narrative itself uses it as a story telling device
In fact, it's the EXACT same shit as Aerosmith, Aerosmith WOULD have shot Diavolo, but Diavolo deleted a fraction of time, explicitly noted the whole world is gone and the process was deleted but the results of what should have happened remain. It's WHY he has causality manip.

And it isn't my interpretation, we're told all this, what's there to interpret? This is all stated explicitly.

How does this offer a defeater to the idea that actions are real within a time erase?

Uh easy, because they don't happen, and we're told they don't happen, and we're shown they don't happen, and we're told the things he's seeing isn't them actually doing stuff but just forecasted images of what WOULD HAVE happened had he not deleted time, and that everything within time skip doesn't happen, just the results remain? Ergo if he isn't actually seeing them do actions but jus images of what they would have done, the world is gone, and the process is gone, by proxy what they did is gone because that's literally what those words entail?

Even if i granted you time is literally just not there, i'd need another reason to think this applies to actions not being real, there are multiple ways you could take this without actions being unreal. It could just be a literal world without time, but actions are still there. You have no reason to accept one over the other.

Ignoring the fact we're told again, like 5 times. Yeah, it is a world without time he actually says the whole ************* world as whole goes too so not really
But precisely because of that, any actions taken within that time have no meaning, it's like a film reel.
Plop a video in a film editor, cut a chunk of the video out. The part of the video now didn't happen, yeah, things align after the fact that make it seem like it happened, but it didn't, that chunk is gone now and doesn't exist, but within that empty timeframe that should have happened, Diavolo can do shit, like not much, because ya know, but he can change his fate basically by moving around and avoiding what would have happened to him.

You'd need to prove that and I have no reason to accept that. It doesn't follow from the fact that PA to PB have no meaning means they didn't actually happen.

It can just mean they didn't hurt Diavolo or sum. This isn't an actual proof.

WHAT
Why do you think they can't hurt him? They aren't even HAPPENING. It's all images, WHOLE WORLD is gone.

My dude, he LITERALLY stands in the path of a Stand attack, and it just goes right through him, and he says "yeah i deleted that the whole goddamn world and the process so get ****** kiddo". Say sike ong right now plz

No? The fact theres a meaningful distinction between meaningful and meaningless entails it's real, as it simply means there is an attack that could or could not have been successful. The fact that there's such a criterion entails the attack exists.

A nonexistent attack can't fail or not fail to do something, they don't exist.

There isn't a meaningful distinction, it's meaningless BECAUSE they don't happen. Yeah, there WAS an attack, and it COULD have been successful, but because he DELETED TIME, and THE PROCESS THAT OCCURS, attacks become meaningless, and the scan I posted uses an example where he explicitly denotes that context himself while he doubles down on that.
You're doing actual mental gymnastics my dude... It's meaningless the process of the action doesn't actually happen when time is gone. There's no "well actually they do happen", if they happened it wouldn't be meaningless, hell bro would be straight ******, Abbacchio never would have died, tbh Bruno probably wuld have lived too, he was extremely close to splitting his head open.

You could point to nowhere in the profile that says what DIavolo sees are actually unreal holograms or whatever.

Ok.
" During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him."

Explicitly noted it's actions that would have happened, as in, they didn't happen.
And that it's superimposed onto the world around him.

You could not prove any of that. You couldn't prove that he doesn't actually see Bruno there, he never says that, what he says is that he can forecast the trails of Bruno's movement, which literally doesn't prove he isn't seeing Bruno.
es of the erased attacks means they are real.

Newsflash, I wasn't the person who said that, but it's true, all actions forecasts, and the entire world is gone, guides use Bruno/Sticky Fingers as the example

You have no justification for claiming the reason he phases through things or the reason people do not remember is because of the fact the attacks simply didn't happen, and there are far too many unaddressed problems with that to actually accept rn.

WHAT
HE SAYS THAT HIMSELF, AS AN ATTACK IS PHASING THROUGH HIM, THAT BECAUSE HE DELETED TIME, THE WHOLE WORLD IS GONE, AND BECAUSE THE PROCESS IS GONE, HE WON'T GET HIT
WHAT
Are you for real right now?

The fact that they don't remember the attacks means there were attacks in erased time, as that's just what it means to say you don't remember something.

THEY DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE IT WAS DELETED, THEY CANT REMEMBER SOMETHING DIDNT HAPPEN, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT

Nonexsistent things can't have properties like being meaningless or being forgotten,

We have like THREE Stands that don't actually exist my dude...

Nonexsistent things can't have properties like being meaningless or being forgotten, you can't attach properties to nothingness, as that would make it not nothing by definition. The fact the databooks can even predicate on the properties of the erased attacks means they are real.

Or maybe, it's saying "wow attacks that wouldve happened in that time are bad and stinky now, because like, attacks WOULD have happened, but like, not anymore lmao". Why are you jumping through hoops to bullshit that they exist when we're told shit just doesn't happen?

Bend time works in the void which is timeless

Also, unless you think the passage of events that Diavolo happens without time, how can Time Erase be literally timeless?

And how much do you wanna bet the properties between these two are so utterly distinct that even trying to compare them is ridiculous?

Diavolo is explicitly the only mf who retains "time". It is timeless, it's said so many times it's obnoxious, it's shown so many times.
And actually yeah, Diavolo CAN'T do anything in time skip, it's unironically why he just doesn't kill people, bro can't rip a dude's head off because of this, but damn if he didn't wish he could.

Regardless.
We are told verbatim. Time does not exist, it's gone, time doesn't exist in the world, ignoring the fact you can tell it's being literal given we see the whole world fall apar and become nothing but a black void, we are told explicitly time and again "hey, time has vanished from the world/time has been deleted/time is gone/etc".
We are told, numerous times the cause is gone, but the result remains, which is why you have things like "cant remeber reading a book" are a thing, because the act of reading is gone, but the result having done so stays. Hence the causality manip that he has on his profile right now.
We are told the whole world is just flat out ******* gone (which we see), hence the spatial manip he has accepted on his profile.
We are told like ten times that "the actions" are just images, aka, not the person actually doing them.

The only person here who's not actually following how it works is you, and ignoring everything that tells us how it works and what it does, most of which have zero-room for interpretation.

 

[Naito-desu]

Diavolo FRA

 

[Chariot190]

i should mention i literally dont care about the match and im not voting
i should also mention that maybe I wasnt clear, yes diavolo "skips" time, but that term doesn't accurately explain the actual mechanics behind it as a consequence of that timeframe being deleted, hence why the more precise description is deletion and being "skipped" is a byproduct of the time no longer being there because of it. Like going 1>2>3>4>5 but deleting the 3 so it's 1>2>4>5

 

[Arcker123]

@Chariot190 I'm uninterested in writing more text walls here ngl. I'm willing to talk to you on discord about this.

 

[WyattR612]

Since clarified, Diavolo fra

 

[Arcker123]

Nothing has been clarified. I still disagree with his claim, I just don't think a versus thread is the actual time to discuss it.

Even if I granted this, it doesn't address the other contentions I had with Diavolo winning. Chariot didn't even present a case for Diavolo winning and explicitly said he isn't voting.

 

[WyattR612]

Idk it's pretty clearly tbh, if you gonna debate with him at discord doesnt works for me as i'm just reading the thread

 

[Arcker123]

Even if I granted this, it doesn't address the other contentions I had with Diavolo winning. Chariot didn't even present a case for Diavolo winning and explicitly said he isn't voting.

Ya'll seem to be FRAing a guy who didn't make an argument for Diavolo winning. That was my point.

Idk it's pretty clearly tbh, if you gonna debate with him at discord doesnt works for me as i'm just reading the thread

Me saying I'd talk to him on discord doesn't mean that it's been confirmed on this thread.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Would Corvo's abilities using the Heart give him any awareness of time skips?

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 I'm uninterested in writing more text walls here ngl. I'm willing to talk to you on discord about this.

I'm not either, but why the hell would I want to continue it on Discord? Bruh I just wanna play funny monkey game man
The issue is only an issue here, you can have your opinion off-site, but if ya gonna say that shit I kinda have to my dude, like unless ya just wanna chill or talk normally on discord like the other lads ig, but I ain't debating shit in places it don't matter.

As it stands, it's accepted, beyond that it's explicit, and like goddamn, I'm not even sure how you can argue against

• "Diavolo's Stand that can erase time and obliterate events that would have occurred"
• "The entire world within that interval is erased [...] I erased the process. Only the results remain" (All said to explain how he's un-interactable while time is gone)
• "Time vanishes from this world" (To clarify the previous statement)

and that's just 3 scans, just 3, I wasn't joking when I said there was about 30 btw not that i have all of them saved since the great mass deletion incident, but a few I posted in chat so those I got on hand at least...

That's the whole point of the ability and why he's considered completely invincible in context. We accept all this, if they want to use it for the match, not only are they allowed too, but they'd be dumb not to use his main gimmick.

Nothing has been clarified. I still disagree with his claim, I just don't think a versus thread is the actual time to discuss it.

I'm basically just repeating what is said and shown verbatim. Maybe if I was one of the lads going "well Diavolo is actually 5D but ONLY within time skip because this, this, and that" you'd have a point that isnt true btw, idk what they're thinking when they argue that.

It's granted because it's accepted, and you'd need to do some Grade A mental Olympics to conclude he doesn't.
He deletes the process (Hence the causality manip and the fact his profile explicitly says actions that WOULD HAVE occurred).
We are told the whole goddamn world is deleted (we literally see the whole world crumble apart and become a black void every time he uses it so like.... Idk how the hell there's even room for interpretation here), which is why he has spatial manip, aka, accepted.
And we're told the actions he sees are just images (aka, not actually happening otherwise they wouldn't be images now would they?)

Despite your claims the profile doesn't accept this, it does, and it's why he has half the abilities he has.

Even if I granted this, it doesn't address the other contentions I had with Diavolo winning. Chariot didn't even present a case for Diavolo winning and explicitly said he isn't voting.

Also think the possession argument is faulty too btw given Diavolo is actually kind of built for anti-possession tactics, bro is like lil yug on crack

Me saying I'd talk to him on discord doesn't mean that it's been confirmed on this thread.

Not in this thread no, it was confirmed like idk, 5 years ago (probably way longer tbh) in a different thread.
It's why he has Time Erase, Spatial Manip, and Causality Manip, and it's worded like "events that WOULD HAVE occurred" and not "EVENTS THAT OCCUR", among other things. I won't say the profile is perfect, but everything that matters is, in fact, on there to some degree.




If this dude has arguments that Diavolo can't just precog then ignore completely, yeah that's fine go wild.

 

[Demifiend]

King Crimson goo brrr

 

[CrackerVolley]

Would Corvo's abilities using the Heart give him any awareness of time skips?

I really don't want want to repeat what I said only three posts ago, but everything seems to be coming down to the wire considering the votes, and I really want to know how much Cosmic Awareness and Info Analyzing will be a factor in Corvo attempting to outplay timeskip.

 

[Naito-desu]

Ya'll seem to be FRAing a guy who didn't make an argument for Diavolo winning. That was my point.

Why the hell do people need to justify their stance to you? If you don't think it's enough, too bad, don't give others grief for what you perceive as an insufficient argument.

 

[CBslayeR]

they're FRAing me since I already made arguments for diavolo just nopeing past everything and getting close

 

[CrackerVolley]

Please answer my question.

 

[Baken384]

Diavolo's Stand that can erase time and obliterate events that would have occurred

bro thinks hes bites the dust

 

[Arcker123]

Why the hell do people need to justify their stance to you? If you don't think it's enough, too bad, don't give others grief for what you perceive as an insufficient argument.

No?

I'm just saying I was unsure of what was being FRA'd since Chariot didn't actually make an argument for DIavolo.

they're FRAing me since I already made arguments for diavolo just nopeing past everything and getting close

Okie dokie IG.

I disagree but we seem to have reached a conclusion in the debate. I'll update votes rn, apologies for the wait.

Please answer my question.

Uh probably

The heart gives Corvo a lot of esoteric information, but it does somewhat describe how people and their magic work iirc, so you can argue it.

---

@Chariot190: I offered the discord thing because this seems to be a personal disagreement between the 2 of us, and this is just a topic that I feel would be better for that rather than writing walls over multiple pages, especially on a thread where there are other arguments to be made for Corvo.

If you're uninterested that's fine. I'll just use the interpretation you gave for the sake of the argument even though I disagree. I find that more productive than writing walls on a relatively minor topic for this thread.

 

[Demifiend]

Why do you disagree when it's so blatatly obvious that king Crimson truly erase time.

 

[CrackerVolley]

The heart gives Corvo a lot of esoteric information, but it does somewhat describe how people and their magic work iirc, so you can argue it.

Thanks, that's helpful. So are all of you are arguing about if Corvo resists time skipping?

Also, what's the average distance Corvo can travel during Blink? Because if he can outpace Diavolo, he can somewhat avoid getting into dangerous situations in the first place, even with time skips.

 

[Arcker123]

Why do you disagree when it's so blatatly obvious that king Crimson truly erase time.

My reasoning's already on the page so you can read it if you like. You can DM me if you want to discuss it or sum.

I'm already agreeing to this for the sake of argument anyway so we don't clutter to hard.

Thanks, that's helpful. So are all of you are arguing about if Corvo resists time skipping?

No. It's just about how Corvo interacts with the time erase whilst in it.

I have other arguments for Corvo besides this though, so it's whatev.

 

[Arcker123]

Also, what's the average distance Corvo can travel during Blink? Because if he can outpace Diavolo, he can somewhat avoid getting into dangerous situations in the first place, even with time skips.

Dozens of meters as per the profile.

His Blinks also stop time when aiming them.

 

[CrackerVolley]

In that case, I'm currently leaning towards inconclusive. If Diavolo manages to get in ASAP, he's pretty likely to one-tap. If Corvo manages to survive the initial encounter, he'll likely figure out at least the basics of KC using the Heart, keep his distance, and throw enough garbage at Diavolo until the latter starts getting exhausted or overwhelmed.

 

[Arcker123]

Bump