The Living Tribunal killed...by Lord Chaos and Master Order

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

So we use 16D Marvel because other people do? Okay.

What about using the 3 storylines that treat Multi-Abstracts as High 1-B / 1-A instead of the panel treating them as 16D? Those are equally as obscure, I would wager, and also larger in number than one storyline.

Tom Brevoort making comics or handbooks doesn't disprove him being immensely ignorant, as one can see when you see his comments. No one on any other place on the internet who Vs.Debates views him as anything but a joke.

 

[Antvasima]

I did not lie. Being autistic, I almost never do. It is unnatural to me to reason in insincere terms. I perceive that scan as stating that the omniverse in this story is defined as all parallel universes combined.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I have consistently remained polite. Matthew has started to recurrently attack me recently though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wait Matt can you list all the feats that are 16-D level in this storyline?

There aren't, but the storyline still treats Infinite Universes as a tiny thing compared to the likes of Eternity, Lifebringer Galactus and Molecule-Man.

Marvel's sole 16th-Dimensional feat comes from a 1994 storyline:

This thing.

In comparison, there are three stories that write the Marvel Multiverse / Omniverse as High 1-B.

First One .

Second One.

And Third One.

And I apologize if I act frustrated or rude, but it is very tiring to deal with the same discussion over and over and run into the same roadblocks. If it is the autism or personal things, I am sorry.

I do not wish to be your enemy nor to offend you. But I also don't agree with a word of your side.

 

[Antvasima]

There is only one storyline that I know of that offhandedly treats Dormammu, and Umar as 1-A, but all of the Faltine had previously been well established as regular higher-dimensional entities, and the height of Dormammu's power was repeatedly shown as universal, not to mention his greatest lows, which were of street level variety, and that the Hulk was able to harm Dormammu in the same storyline. It does not make any sense to rate them as 1-A.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well I probably should have been more specific, but I meant feats that scale with LB Galactus sorry lol.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do not wish to write and rank either Dormammu or Umar at 1-A, merely The Living Tribunal and the Multiversal Abstracts which scale to him, as the Marvel Cosmos was defined as having Infinite Spatial Dimensions / Layers of Infinity three times.

Something can be an outlier for a character, yet very much a valid feat for another at the same time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, how do you imagine that I feel from having to deal with thousands of repetitive tiring discussions, including with you, and I still try to remain polite. In fact, I do not have as much energy to spend on them as you do, given my constant monitoring work for most of the edits within this wiki.

I have usually gone along with most of your decisions, but you seem to get upset and start to insult me as soon as I do not do absolutely everything that you want.

 

[Promestein]

A character's greatest lows are completely irrelevant and have nothing to do with higher showings; bringing them up is fallacious downplaying. You yourself admit that such low levels are illogical, so they shouldn't be brought up in debate at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, forgive me if I offended or annoyed you, nor am I saying that my life here is worst than you. I have nothing against you as a human being, nor a Bureucrat.

Our views on Marvel Comics are almost completely disparate, though, and I sometimes fail to separate the discussion from us as people.

I can be highly impulsive, which I always regret. Again, sorry.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we generally try to avoid complete outliers in either downwards or upwards direction, which is why Dormammu is rated as varying between Low 2-C and 2-A at his peak.

When has the Marvel multiverse, that the LT embodied, been stated to be infinite-dimensional?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A character's greatest lows are completely irrelevant and have nothing to do with higher showings; bringing them up is fallacious downplaying. You yourself admit that such low levels are illogical, so they shouldn't be brought up in debate at all.

And this is why bringing up the one time a Gorilla or a Snake hurt Thor / Hulk is a fallacious non-argument.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Prom unless taken in context.

In which case, is to show that there is extremes on both sides.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. But this has happened before, and then you start to insult me again on another occasion. I am neutral about Marvel. I like the classic characters, but dislike the way that they are currently handled. Regardless, I have attempted to make sense of it as best as I can, based on reading several thousands of their comics, without either particular positive or negative bias in this regard, just personal experience.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I dislike current Marvel too, Ant. I roll my eyes everytime I see a blatant example of SJW-pandering in it.

I too think Marvel is inane and hard to quantify, which is why one of my future projects is to read every single appearance of every Marvel Abstract character ever. To try and make sense of the Cosmic Scale and Hierarchy.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData

Exactly. They are extreme illogical low ends, just as that there are extreme illogical high ends. We have to try to find some sort of rational evaluation that makes some sort of logical sense.

Anyway, I suppose that "Possibly 1-B" for lifebringer Galactus may be an idea. He has definitely not displayed anywhere near that scale of power yet though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I dislike current Marvel too, Ant. I roll my eyes everytime I see a blatant example of SJW-pandering in it.

.#MattConfirmedForWhiteMaleCapitalistNaziPatriarchy
On a serious note, the quantifying cosmic hierarchy thing is a good idea.I'm trying to do something similar with Chaos, since many writers seem to have very different ideas on the extent of the Gods' abilities (for example, cosmic awareness ranging from "What the **** is a Tyranid?" to "Tzeentch literally knows almost everything ever from every point in every reality" depending on writer).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, most Abstracts short of Eternity only have some dozen appearances, so it shouldn't be impossible to read it all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

How does "At least High 2-A, likely 1-B" sound?

And as for reasoning (Exists in the same level as Multiversal Abstracts such as Multi-Eternity, fought and defeated the Multiversal Order and Chaos. While the storyline didn't depict said characters on their highest level, it is still treated Infinite Universes as absolutely insignificant to them)

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

I suppose that your description of lifebringer Galactus should be fine, except that I would make it "At least 2-A. Possibly 1-B".

And yes, we should drop it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think it's best we drop this subject now cause it can very quickly go to chaos.

Chaos?

trying-to-lighten-the-mood.jpg

 

[Promestein]

I'm fine with "At least High 2-A, possibly/likely 1-B" given the evidence that has been shown.

 

[Antvasima]

Infinite parallel universes are just 2-A, and that is what seems to have been referred to within this story, so I think that "At least 2-A. Possibly 1-B" would fit better.

 

[Promestein]

What's this? Galactus is showcasing the vision of Infinite Space-Time Continuums at once to the heroes?

And even that is but a tiny fragment of reality.

This implies that he transcends said infinite parallel universes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

As for Infinite Dimensional Marvel Multiverse, here it is:

Scan One

"Before one can hope to compehend the Multiverse, in even te most limited way, one must first grasp the notion that the very concept of "Infinity" is relative. For instance: Numbers are infinite. So are odd numbers. Yet, by definition, there are twice as many numbers as there are odd numbers. One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity." (...) Goerg Cantor, a russian monk at the turn of this century, was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph - An infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other. Quite understandably, he died a madman. Yet, it is of such concepts and more -- That the Multiverse is made. For the Multiverse is literally a transfinite number -- That is, a number greater than infinity -- of universes. These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

Scan Two

"The human mind cannot comprehend the true nature of the Multiverse. Yet if we were to think of it in simple two-dimensional terms, we could picture it as an infinite spectrum. At the center of this actually center-less spectrum -- because man is a naturally ethnocentric species -- we could arbitrarily place the infinity of universes wich share three spatial dimensions, such as man's own. The Earth Universe, which is home alike to humankind and to Galactus and the Celestials, is embodied in the entity known as Eternity, and its "Sister" Death. Its mathematicians quibble endlessly as to whether or not its space or time know any boundaries. Men have much to learn before they understand even the tiny cosmic pond in which they live. Man's Universe has its own, infinite number of variants -- sometimes known as "Alternate Universes" -- explored by the race of Watchers. All these variants share the same three spatial dimensions and obey roughly the same natural laws -- which men call "Science." (...)"

Scan Three

"Further outward, we encounter universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions is "Irrational" -- As witness Pi, that mystic number which stretched onward into infinity. And human visual representation of these universes is necessarily distorted or incomplete. Among these are Tiboro's "Sixth Dimension" -- Tazzas Lonely Domain -- Nighmare's Dimension of Dreams -- And the Dark Dimension, of which more will be said. There are universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7268409 (etc.) and 6.2985923 (etc.). Though natural laws therein may range from Science and Magic, these all share a commonality of Concepts. Hence the are grouped together into a Cluster. Man's cluster is one of the responsabilities of the All-Powerful Being known as The Living Tribunal. Journeying towards "Lower" Universes with fewer than 2.7268409 (etc.) dimensions -- or toward "Higher" ones with more than 6.2985923 (Etc). -- One enters universes which are truly different. Yet, even there, life exists -- albeit in forms totally inconceivable to mankind. There, The Living Tribunal takes other shapes to administer the other clusters. (...)"

Why do we rank TLT based on a single panel, rather than a developed three-page explanation is beyond me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that I linked to those pages within the Living Tribunal's page, and the ACF wiki also use them as a basis, but they do not state anything about infinite spatial dimensions, as far as I understand, just that there are increasing amounts of them. The highest mentioned explicit number that I know of is 16.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

Well, perceiving/understanding reality is not the same as encompassing it. Given the scan that mentioned parallel universes together encompassing the "omniverse", I am more comfortable with using 2-A as a lower border.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

The scans explictly state that the Multiverse is a transfinity, completely larger and beyond all understandanding of infinity. It stated that you could fit any infinite number of universes in any of it's points, and it talks about infinite infinities of universes, including Higher and Lower-Dimensional Universes.

It's very clear that it intends the Multiverse to have on the whole Infinite Spatial Dimensions.

Similar descriptions are repeated on a 90s Kosmos / Kubik storyline:

"Our might is infinite. But there are levels of infinity."

"Preposterous. Infinity is by its very nature unsurpassable."

"Consider then, the set called whole numbers - 1, 2, 3, , and so on. Is it not infinity?" "Obviously."

"Then consider the set called even numbers - 2, 4, 6, 8 and so on - How long is it?"

"Why infinite, of course."

"Half of infinity is still still infinity. And the same would be true of the set of odd numbers?"

"Of course."

"Both sets are infinite, and yet the set of whole numbers contains both sebsets, and is therefoe twice as large as either subset alone. Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity. There are, of course, an infinite number more."

Cringy writing aside, Infinite levels of Infinity isn't so absurd a saying in Marvel. Certainly more believable than it stopping at 16D.

And in the 2005 Defenders Series.

"Worlds within worlds! Dimensions folding into themselves! Entire universes being born... And collpasing into ruins. And yet I sense that all this -- is but the meret fraction of what eternity is!"

 

[Antvasima]

Infinite parallel universes are only a 5-Dimensional concept, and that is not what transfinite means:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_number

DarkLK was the one who originally showed those scans to me, and he did not consider it to talk about infinite spatial dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, it only talks about the existence of higher-dimensional levels of reality, and that these by nature contain increasing levels of infinity. Anything else would be extreme speculation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Transfinite doesn't mean larger than infinity in Real Life, but those scans were using it to mean larger than infinity. The real science doesn't disprove the fiction.

And DarkLK doesn't really care for Marvel, and we cannot use his say as absolute and final. That would be appealing to authority.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Basically, it only talks about the existence of higher-dimensional levels of reality, and that these by nature contain increasing levels of infinity. Anything else would be extreme speculation.

I'm just applying Occam's Razor here, is all. Everything about those scans imply infinite everything. I have no reason to assume everything but the number of Higher Spatial Dimensions is infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

Those scans clearly refer to mathematical concepts. And that is what the word fundamentally means. We cannot upgrade the Marvel multiverse to High 1-B based on flawed logic and wishful thinking.

DarkLK is our premier expert regarding how the tiering system works. I am completely opposed to disregarding his analysis as irrelevant.

Also, you are taking up valuable time that I should spend monitoring the daily backlog. I will likely have to work for 10 hours taking care of the wiki today because of it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, you really don't need to spend so much time here if you would rather be doing something else. I'm just sharing my thoughts, scans and opinions for others to see. If they agree with me or not is not my concern.

And it's not wishful thinking, it's what the pages imply.

If I wasted your time, sorry, but you didn't need to spend so much time on this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

It is important not to argue for the sake of arguing to support technically illogical and biased interpretations.

 

[Promestein]

Regardless of the correct definition of the word, it is used in a context implying 'greater than infinite'. We don't take writers saying 'dimensions' literally when they're obviously referring to universes, so why is this different?

 

[Antvasima]

And the Kosmos and Kubik example of increasing countable infinity, does not apply to anything of more that 5-Dimensional order, as far as I am aware, whereas the Defenders story is already discounted for its sheer inconsistency of claiming that Dormammu and Umar are 1-A, while simultaneously treating them as 2-A in practice, and having Dormammu harmed by the Hulk.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Agreed with Prom.

"(...) was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph - An infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other. Quite understandably, he died a madman. Yet, it is of such concepts and more -- That the Multiverse is made. For the Multiverse is literally a transfinite number -- That is, a number greater than infinity -- of universes. These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

What is the scan actually saying?

That there are infinite infinities in the Multiverse. That the Multiverse is greater than all definitions of infinity.

And we really don't have to accept Dormammu's outliers to apply a feat for Multi-Eternity. Fiction and outliers are less black and white than that. Something that is valid for one character is simultanouesly an outlier for another.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

The pages do not in fact imply this. They do not state anything other than that there are increasing numbers of spatial dimensions in the multiverse. I am completely opposed to rating all abstract entities as High 1-B, unless DarkLK supports your interpretation.

I am already exhausted, and I still have to work full time making sure that the wiki does not collapse. You are starting to become more of a problem than Tivanenk ever was.

@Promestein

In a context of discussing mathematics, transfinite simply refers to increasing degrees of infinity, not absolute infinity beyond all ability to understand and conceptualise. The very foundation of our tiering system is based on increasing levels of infinity. Each higher spatial dimension is geometrically a beyond countable infinity times larger than the preceding number. The logic at play here is to treat any character higher than basic order of countable infinity as High 1-B, which is not how our system works.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

... I'm more of a problem than Tivanenk because I disagree with you and argue for my side?

Please don't threaten me again, it does nothing for any discussion and it's just displeasing...