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The Living Tribunal killed...by Lord Chaos and Master Order

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It is different incarnations of the multiverse, but it disregards other times that the Marvel multiverse has been destroyed, such as by the Chaos King (Marvel), and somehow considers the start of the regular Marvel universe (when Galactus was born), as the start of the 7th multiverse.

Anyway, Al Ewing seems to treat multiverse and omniverse as interchangeable words, yes.
 
I really didn't get that impression. They called Eternity "The Multiverse", and later talked about "Everything" and used the word Omniverse for it.

And they mean start of 7th Omniverse.

And if that's the case, why did you use Al Ewing's treating of the Omniverse to remove TOAA's Tier 0, if you are admiting it's interchangeable with Multiverse?
 
The LT stated that Galactus was merged with the consciousness of the 6th cosmos, even though he was previously treated as having been transformed by the consciousness of the previous universe. Pre-Beyonders Marvel multiverse was the 7th cosmos. There was a magic character from the 5th cosmos that showed up earlier in his run.

Al Ewing treats omniverses as multiverses, not as all of fiction and reality combined, and even if he did, it would be a case of Suggsverse-style megalomania.
 
I don't really see how the above scans are proof that he treats them differently? When Jonathan Hickman and several other Marvel writers constantly talked about the Marvel multiverse being destroyed during the incursions between universes caused by the Beyonders, Al Ewing used both the terms multiverse and omniverse to describe the event.
 
 
And it is different because the Ultimates, while traveling to outside the Omniverse...

Start on Earth, through deep space and into the space between universes

To eldritch space beyond all known and possible things

Yet they are still inside the Omniverse

I.E, the space between all universes and the space beyond all known and thought possible things is still but a portion of Eternity, the Omniverse.

This is consistent with other comicswhich depict the Marvel Cosmos as far larger than you seem to often treat it as . It's weird to rank the Multi-Abstracts at 16-Dimensional based on one panel when multiple comics give them higher definitions.

But that's besides the point.
 
Well, the problem is that we are scaling between very different standards, in very different storylines, by very different writers, in very different decades.

The 16-dimensional LT/Eternity/Chaos/Order story was written in 1994, whereas here it is stated outright in one of your scans that what is intended is that "omniverse" Eternity is the sum of all parallel universes, including ones with different laws of physics, which is just a 2-A feat, at best, and likely 2-B, given that the Molecule Man, Reed Richards, and Franklin Richards were shown to recreate the multiverse one universe at a time.

I am still uncomfortable with that we scale the Beyonders and Molecule Man accordingly, and would be even more so with Galactus, simply because he perceives reality on a higher level.
 
However, we can wait and see what happens.
 
You currently have the Multi-Abstracts ranked at 1-B for being in the same level of reality as Multi-Eternity and TLT.

Lifebringer Galactus fits this description, he's a Multi-Abstract level being.*

Yes, and the same comic also describes Eternity as the Omniverse, which is bigger than Infinite Universes by an unknown amount.
 
Also, regardless of what Al Ewing claims, it makes no sense for just one version of Galactus to have the consciousness of the previous multiverse as a part of his being, when there are plenty of incarnations of the character in different universes.
 
Not when The Lifebringer Galactus appears to be a singular being with the power of an entire multiverse / omniverse absorbed. Claiming that "It doesn't make sense to me" is often overruled by what is shown in the story, namely definitions and feats, which point to Lifebringer Galactus as being 1-B.

It's clear that Galactus has never tapped into his Lifebringer potential before. This is a retcon, but it's not impossible. Much like The Molecule-Man exists in every universe separately as part of a larger consciousness, and the Abstracts have manifestations in every universe and plane of existence, but truly exist beyond it all in their "Multiversal" versions, the Lifebringer Galactus seems to be above the regular universe-destroying galactuses.
 
Not to sound like a broken record, but using the "Doesn't make sense to me" phrase is never a good argument.

If we at VBW want to be unbiased, fair and analytical, we need to always be open to change and new evidence, and to analyse the textual evidence regardless of previous misconceptions. I too find the idea of a Multiversal Single Galactus as odd, but all evidence in the story points to one.
 
Again, previous origin stories were extremely clear about that Galactus was strictly transformed by the consciousness of the previous Marvel universe, and had alternative versions in every parallel universe, and these versions of Galactus were destroyed along with almost everybody else by the Beyonders.

He cannot logically contain the consciousness of the 6th multiverse/"omniverse", when A: Every single previous story states that he was transformed by a the mind of a single universe, and B: That version of Galactus was very much killed along with the 7th incarnation. The 8th incarnation is unrelated.

In addition, my previous points still stand.
 
I am not using "doesn't feel right" as an argument, I am rationally picking apart the logical coherence of the storyline, and the scaling between two different writers who have not incorporated each other's standards.
 
It's called Retconning. Comics do it all the time.

It's what turned Beyonder from God into an incomplete Cosmic Cube. Marvel Comics are full of those. If previous storylines treat Galactus as only a singular universe, that is beside the point when the current Al Ewing Lifebringer Galactus displays Multiversal Origins and Multi-Abstract feats.

He can logically contain the consciousness of the 6th Multi / Omniverse when the comic displays that he does.
 
Well, for the record, I'm leaning to agreeing with Matt. Regardless of past descriptions, this is a retcon and cannot be discarded due to inconsistency when it's the new canon. And plenty of characters with alternate versions in other parallel universes have wider, multi-universe spanning consciousnesses, and others grow to ascend the rest of their counterparts, so this isn't particularly absurdly nonsensical.
 
Shouldn't this warrant something more on the lines of Possibly 1-B?

Just considering both sides to this, one of which is based on years of the current level, versus one based on a new, but thoroughly explained couple of events.
 
I as well am starting to agree with Matt and Prom. Even if a retcon is ridiculous or silly, we should still acknowledge it happened. And prioritize the in verse evidence over bad writing.
 
^Assuming it is a retcon, it could be another inconsistency in terms of capabilities and levels.
 
SomebodyData said:
Shouldn't this warrant something more on the lines of Possibly 1-B?
Just considering both sides to this, one of which is based on years of the current level, versus one based on a new, but thoroughly explained couple of events.
Click to expand...
The old levels shouldn't matter when dealing with a brand new form. It would be like bringing up DBZ Goku to claim that 3-A Super Saiyan God is impossible.

And it is a retcon. Al Ewing's The Ultimates rewrites Galactus' origin story in that it wasn't just his single universe that died, but the entire 6th Omniverse, whose power went to him yet he was never aware of it, always acting as a force of hunger and destruction when his purpose was one one of creation and rebirth.
 
Well, again, it is illogical to power-scale between different storylines, decades, writers, and standards to this ridiculous extent. It is equivalent to the ultimate form of calc stacking.

And an off-hand comment by the new Living Tribunal does not invalidate all of the previous, far more prominent origin stories for Galactus, especially not one that would require this version of Galactus to be the same as the old one, rather than a copy.
 
Why? It's a clear as daylight retcon. It's not calc-stacking, we are using evidence solely from the current storyline. Galactus has a new origin and level of power, as evidenced by flashbacks, exposition and feats. You cannot ignore all of this.
 
And we have never seen Galactus display any 16-Dimensional feats. He was simply stated to perceive reality on a higher level. That's it.
 
So we cannot rank him as 1-B for defeating Multi-Abstracts despite us ranking Multi-Abstracts at 1-B?

That is laughable.

It's weird that you often say that Marvel is the loosest and most inconsistent Verse in fiction, and then demand comics to always portray the most consistently defined ideas in order for you to accept them as legit feats. Seems backwards to the way the Verse works. If it truly is that inconsistent, we should be looser with it, rather than demand even higher standards than we do with consistent Verses handled by a singular author.

It seems that you want every comic handling Multi-Abstracts to state them to be 16th-Dimensional like a broken record, or else you won't consider they to be as such. The comic goes out of it's way to retcon Galactus and display his new level of power. You cannot bring up Pre-Retcon lore to disprove it, nor can you use "Doesn't make sense" in conjunction with it.
 
It is equivalent to calc stacking to scale Galactus to suddenly be a 16-Dimensional entity, in a storyline that explicitly strictly uses the concept of parallel universes, based on an obscure story by another writer 22 years earlier.
 
I think that we should either ask Tom Brevoort, or wait for any updates to Galactus' handbook profile to see if this supposed retcon is accepted by Marvel's editorial.
 
Then why are the multiversal abstracts 1-B at all? If you're calling the story "obscure", and if it can't be used for logical scaling and to come to conclusions supported by canon material, why is it there at all?
 
Antvasima said:
I think that we should either ask Tom Brevoort, or wait for any updates to Galactus' handbook profile to see if this supposed retcon is accepted by Marvel's editorial.
Click to expand...
Tom Brevoort, the guy who says that Mjolnir > Odin and that Doctor Doom is Omnipotent but not Omniscient.

Stop using him as evidence. He is clearly ignorant on Power Levels, doesn't care and says far too much stupid things to be reliable. You seem to pick and choose his lines when it fits your narrative.

"It is equivalent to calc stacking to scale Galactus to suddenly be a 16-Dimensional entity, in a storyline that explicitly strictly uses the concept of parallel universes, based on an obscure story by another writer 22 years earlier."

>Strictly uses parallel universes

>Start on Earth, through deep space and into the space between universes

To eldritch space beyond all known and possible things

Yet they are still inside the Omniverse

You don't need to lie, okay?
 
If Lifebringer Galactus is capable of venturing beyond the bounds of Multi-Eternity and fighting unrestricted complete Lord Chaos and Master Order, shouldn't we at the very least rate him as comparable to Multi-Abstracts in the confines of the story? Transcending abstract space that exists beyond the traditional 4-D universes of the multiverse would at least put him somewhere in the Low 1-C ballpark, would it not? As it seems the order goes Multi-Abstracts and the space they reside in > the Neutral Zone > regular superflow of space-time composing normally known universes.
 
A: We scale Chaos and Order based on their highest feat 22 years earlier.

B: As you know very well, Marvel is unbelievably inconsistent regarding both power levels, and relative power-scaling, and nothing remotely indicates that they approached a high infinite degree of power in this storyline.

C: We definitely do not know that he defeated their multiversal versions yet.

D: Those were different incarnations of the entities. Reed Richards, the Molecule Man, and Franklin Richards were explicitly shown to focus on recreating individual universes after the Secret War event, not the entire higher-dimensional structure.
 
If I remember correctly, one of your scans explicitly stated that Eternity was the sum total of all parallel universes. There are no mentions of higher-dimensional space within this story.

Also, "laughable", "you don't need to lie", and other of your constant accusations against me are both very unwarranted and out of line.
 
A: And we should if we don't want to be biased downplayers. That's like saying "We can't use Thor's 4-B feats because in this storyline he only blew up a city block"... But you do that as well, which like, commits at least three of our Fallacies .

B: It is, hence why we shouldn't have such inanely high-standards with it. The most inconsistent Verse in fiction shouldn't be held with the expectation for every feat to be more consistent than single writer Verses.

C: We do know, look at my posts above and my scans. Using the word "definitely" won't help when faced against actual textual evidence.

D: They were not, as per my understanding of having actually sat down and read the whole run in a couple hours to talk of it. Also, Marvel really doesn't care for Higher-Dimensions.
 
Antvasima said:
If I remember correctly, one of your scans explicitly stated that Eternity was the sum total of all parallel universes. There are no mentions of higher-dimensional space within this story.
Also, "laughable", "you don't need to lie", and other of your constant accusations against me are both very unwarranted and out of line.
Click to expand...
Except you did lie.

You are talking about this scan, right ? Except the same scan states that he is the Omniverse.

What's this? Galactus is showcasing the vision of Infinite Space-Time Continuums at once to the heroes?

And even that is but a tiny fragment of reality.

And once again:

Start on Earth, through deep space and into the space between universes

To eldritch space beyond all known and possible things

Yet they are still inside the Omniverse

Why are you speaking of us being fair with what is shown in the story when you have to downplay the story?
 
Guys. Let's all just take a breather, OK? Like I said, without any sort of cross-story scaling, we can still safely rate Lifebringer Galactus as somewhere in the Low 1-C ballpark for now, right?

I mean, Neutral Space is supposed to exist beyond the traditional 4-D superflow of time that creates basic universes, and contains "predatory concepts", making it similar to a theoretical fifth-dimensional space, at least in sci-fan terms.

Said Neutral Zone is still contained within the true Eternity, who embodies all of the known. He and entities on his level would completely transcend it. So Low 1-C, right? Transcending the thing that dictates the traditional composition of 4-D universes entirely = High 2-A, while transcending that would be Low 1-C
 
As for the obscure 16-D story. We use it because the Anime Characters Fight wiki uses it, because I do not wish to make Marvel fans furious with us, by strictly rating the high abstracts as 2-A, and because it is a legitimate feat.

The problem lies in power-scaling between different writers who have no idea about what the others were doing or would do later on, alternately ignore it and do their own thing.

I have no reason to like Tom Brevoort. He is a regressive who severely insulted me personally in the past, but he does decide what is counted for Marvel's continuity, as he overlooks the handbooks.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Guys. Let's all just take a breather, OK? Like I said, without any sort of cross-story scaling, we can still safely rate Lifebringer Galactus as somewhere in the Low 1-C ballpark for now, right?
I mean, Neutral Space is supposed to exist beyond the traditional 4-D superflow of time that creates basic universes, and contains "predatory concepts", making it similar to a theoretical fifth-dimensional space in sci-fan terms.

Said Neutral Zone is still contained within the true Eternity, who embodies all of the known. He and entities on his level would completely transcend it. So Low 1-C, right?
Click to expand...
As an absolute minimum, indeed.

And even that would be downplay cause it would ignore all other storylines, and be treating Al Ewing's The Ultimates as it's own Verse disconnected from all of Marvel.
 
"We use it because the Anime Characters Fight wiki uses it" This isn't a legitimate reason, they don't have any more reason to use it than we do and we need to function on our own as a separate community, regardless of the things that ACF has done for us in the past and regardless of DarkLK's involvement in our wiki. I do agree with using the feat, but my point still stands.

I still agree with Matt, but we should all calm down and approach this more calmly as to avoid any unnecessary conflict.
 
Wait Matt can you list all the feats that are 16-D level in this storyline?
 
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