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The Living Tribunal killed...by Lord Chaos and Master Order
- Thread starter Hatted_Cat
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No comments? Did I upload this wrong? @Antvasima, @Matthew Schroeder
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Is this supposed to be in the News and Announcements Board?
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Well the comic came out today. So I thought I should list it as News / Announcement.
What do I change it too and how do I change it?
What do I change it too and how do I change it?
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Prom already changed it.
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I also read the comicbook, but we will have to wait and see if the attack was successful.
There are a few things to note, however:
1) This was the new Adam Warlock version of the Living Tribunal, whose power level is listed as unknown, but was previously shown as superior to all of the universal entities combined.
2) We likely do not know for certain whether or not these were the multiversal or universal versions of Chaos and Order.
3) This is extremely out of character for both of them, as they have consistently tried to safeguard the cosmos in the past. Killing the Tribunal is not exactly working towards that goal.
4) This is a typical example of Marvel's complete disinterest in anything remotely resembling rational and consistent power-scaling.
Given the above, it is hard to give the new Tribunal a set tier from this.
There are a few things to note, however:
1) This was the new Adam Warlock version of the Living Tribunal, whose power level is listed as unknown, but was previously shown as superior to all of the universal entities combined.
2) We likely do not know for certain whether or not these were the multiversal or universal versions of Chaos and Order.
3) This is extremely out of character for both of them, as they have consistently tried to safeguard the cosmos in the past. Killing the Tribunal is not exactly working towards that goal.
4) This is a typical example of Marvel's complete disinterest in anything remotely resembling rational and consistent power-scaling.
Given the above, it is hard to give the new Tribunal a set tier from this.
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There's a Multiversal Chaos and Order? I know Eternity is seen as Multiversal (or Omniversal) in this comic.
Like Al Ewing explained in the QnA in Ultimates 7 link Eternities are universes but they make up a larger Eternity for the multiverse.
But I've never seen anything similar for Chaos, Order or any other abstract.
But thanks for the reply. I just thought that we'd start a conversation about it (since it looks like Order and Chaos will go at it in the next isse with no one to stop them) to find out what's going on. Explanations for these kind of things is what the Wiki is for after all.
Like Al Ewing explained in the QnA in Ultimates 7 link Eternities are universes but they make up a larger Eternity for the multiverse.
But I've never seen anything similar for Chaos, Order or any other abstract.
But thanks for the reply. I just thought that we'd start a conversation about it (since it looks like Order and Chaos will go at it in the next isse with no one to stop them) to find out what's going on. Explanations for these kind of things is what the Wiki is for after all.
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Order and Chaos appeared in 16-dimensional space. Given that universal space-time continuums are only 4-Dimensional, we call those versions of the abstracts multiversal versions, in lack of better options.
Multi-Eternity was a concept introduced in Jeph Loeb's Abraxas saga Fantastic Four story. J.M. DeMatteis used a similar concept in his Defenders series, and now Al Ewing also does something similar, while seemingly using the terms multiverse and omniverse as synonyms for each other.
Multi-Eternity was a concept introduced in Jeph Loeb's Abraxas saga Fantastic Four story. J.M. DeMatteis used a similar concept in his Defenders series, and now Al Ewing also does something similar, while seemingly using the terms multiverse and omniverse as synonyms for each other.
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Yeah it's a bit odd.
Ewing seems to use universe, multiverse and omniverse interchangably.
Remember the scene with the Shaper
"to remake a single universe..."
"Eternity was reborn the seventh omniverse and I became the eight"
Even in the original story Silver Surfer Shaper/Glorian and Eternity were called universes.
Ewing seems to use universe, multiverse and omniverse interchangably.
Remember the scene with the Shaper
"to remake a single universe..."
"Eternity was reborn the seventh omniverse and I became the eight"
Even in the original story Silver Surfer Shaper/Glorian and Eternity were called universes.
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Yes, Al Ewing does not particularly seem to understand the distinctions between some of the terms that he is using, and cares even less about relative power level logic.
Monica Rambeau has overpowered and infinite entity, and a low level tiger-spirit/deity totem has overpowered SHuman-Gorath, under his pen, just to give two examples.
Monica Rambeau has overpowered and infinite entity, and a low level tiger-spirit/deity totem has overpowered SHuman-Gorath, under his pen, just to give two examples.
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I just wanted someone to fix the discussion because I thought I'd messed up. But I can leave him a message.Antvasima said:
We really need to make sense of the Marvel cosmic stuff. Maybe we could schedule a grand discussion when the final number of Ultimates comes out (March?) because it will probably be a while before we get another cosmic tale from Marvel. At least then we'd be up to date.Antvasima said:
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There is probably no point. We have already talked this over extensively several times, and there really is no good way to make sense of it, given that Marvel might as well be Dadaism in terms of logical coherence.
We have already tried as best as we can, but it is a hopeless task. Marvel is currently strictly focused of fundamentalist regressive leftist political propaganda/indoctrination, and are even less concerned than previously about making any sense whatsoever.
We have already tried as best as we can, but it is a hopeless task. Marvel is currently strictly focused of fundamentalist regressive leftist political propaganda/indoctrination, and are even less concerned than previously about making any sense whatsoever.
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But we still have to update the articles as new information comes out, right?
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This just seems stupid.
Plain and simply stupid.
Unless Adam Warlock TLT is simply an M-Body, which in turn would make Time Runs Out so less significant than it was.
Plain and simply stupid.
Unless Adam Warlock TLT is simply an M-Body, which in turn would make Time Runs Out so less significant than it was.
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Seeing things like this, or worse, happen over and over and over and over, year in and year out, is why I consider Marvel so thoroughly nonsensical and incoherent.
Take note that the same writer had Galactus beat Chaos and Order previously. Hence, he thinks that Galactus > The Living Tribunal.
Take note that the same writer had Galactus beat Chaos and Order previously. Hence, he thinks that Galactus > The Living Tribunal.
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Having Galactus be on Abstract level is at least a common enough occourance. And I'm okay with Fully-Fed Galactus being on the level of Eternity and the like. But this is just dumb.
@Ant
I will wait for next issues and hope that Chaos and Order obtained some form of Power Up.
@Ant
I will wait for next issues and hope that Chaos and Order obtained some form of Power Up.
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I thank day and night that the DC / Vertigo Abstracts don't fight.
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Probably PIS, or that LT was just an M-Body, also this was Adam Warlock LT
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The thing is that making this a M-Body would mean that the Time Runs Out TLT was an M-Body.
Though given that they seem to treat Adam Warlock TLT as on Earth's only, this seems to be the case...
Though given that they seem to treat Adam Warlock TLT as on Earth's only, this seems to be the case...
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M-Bodies were only explored in the Quasar run (I'm not sure how valid of a concept it is now) but if they're still a thing, then killing an M-Body would not affect the Living Tribunal's influence.
We know this because when Maelstrom killed Anomally's M-Body, he was unaffected in the cosmic proceedings.
We know this because when Maelstrom killed Anomally's M-Body, he was unaffected in the cosmic proceedings.
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M-Bodies are still a thing in Handbooks.
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Did they Retcon 16-D Living Tribunal and other 16-D Abstracts?
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More like they don't care for the power level of the abstracts. It's usually Universal+ for everyone, with "At least Multiversal+" for the true Multi-Versions.
Which we rate at 1-B out of generosity and fairness.
Which we rate at 1-B out of generosity and fairness.
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Exactly. The Marvel abstracts have generally been displayed of an unfathomably lower scale, and I doubt that the writers know about the 16-D story, or understand the sheer scale that it would imply. However, we have been trying to be generous and fairminded towards them.
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Btw: Al Ewing said on Twitter that the story he is building up is bigger than the Beyonders returning, that it remains to be seen if the new Living Tribunal died, and that they will talk a bit about the power level inconsistencies in upcoming issues.
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Sounds promising. Hopefully he'll be able to make sense of it all.Antvasima said:
Do you have a link to the Tweet?
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Yes, Lord Chaos and Master Order are empowered by the chaos and order of the universe. This was explored in Thor Annual #9. When the universe becomes chaotic Master Order becomes weaker, and they're only two of the lesser abstracts of the universe (like Mistress Love, Master Hate, Anomally, Entropy, etc. etc.) so it doesn't make sense that they're able to kill the second most powerful character in the Marvel Multiverse.Heatforce said:
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Reading the issue he seemed to be talking about the highest level of the Abstracts .
So these are not the Universal Entitites.
So these are not the Universal Entitites.
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Also, anyone knowledgeble enough about current Marvel to explain to me the now 8 Omniverses ?They also are treating them as different from Multiverses, and The Living Tribunal calls himself the "Living Tribunal of the 8th Cosmos"
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