The Legend of Zelda: Yet Another Revision

[Dust_Collector]

In all of Ganondorf's notable appearances as a final boss character (Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess), it takes a combination of Link, the Triforce of Courage, the Light Arrows, sometimes Zelda, and the Master Sword to defeat him. Which is noticeably more effort and weaponry than used to defeat Demise

In Ocarina of Time specifically, it takes Link + Master Sword + Light Arrows + Triforce of Courage + Ganodorf's own magic reflected back at him to defeat Ganondorf

It does not make sense to say Link + Master Sword + Light Arrows + Triforce of Courage <<< Link with JUST the Master Sword (and by logic Ganondorf <<< Demise)

But you're trying to scale base Ganondorf to Demise, like bringing up what Link needed to beat Ganon in Ocarina of Time doesn't help your argument since Ganon has the Triforce of Power when he has all those weapons.

Link does not have the Master Sword as of his fight with the Imprisoned, he's using the Goddess Sword, an incomplete and undoubtedly weaker version

The third time Link fights the Imprisoned is after Zelda blesses the Master Sword and turns it into the True Master Sword. The first Imprisoned fight is when he has the Goddess Sword, second he has the Master Sword, third he had the True Master Sword.

It took the power of the three Golden Goddesses to create an imperfect version of the Master Sword, and the power of Hylia to create the True Master Sword
Goddess Sword <<< Imperfect Master Sword <<< True Master Sword = Demise

Too bad the third Imprisoned fight has the True Master Sword << The Imprisoned

Calamity Ganon was capable of moving the Moon closer to Earth Hyrule while having his power suppressed, which nets Large Planet / Dwarf Star results (The feat is a result of Ganon's minions being killed, and he's explicitly stated to have done it in "Creating a Champion" book)

We've long rejected this since we not told he's explicitly moving the moon (And even then thr actual game itself seems to treat it as more of a natural event that increases his power instead of Ganon moving the moon closer to the planet before pushing back to normal orbit for some bizarre reason)

Ganondorf's Eternal Night was his magic physically stopping the Sun from rising (this is explicitly NOT time manipulation

Again another feat we've rejected years ago, why is it explicitly not time manipulation? Might wanna pull up a statement that explicitly states that Ganondorf is physically stopping the sun instead of making some eternal night via time manipulation.

Zant reality warping to another stage with a star in the background (The stages have physical properties that the player needs to interact with, and upon his defeat everything goes back to normal)

Another feat rejected agos. What says Zant is Warping an realm with a star to create an exact replica of Hyrule complete with the barrier Ganon set up around Hyrule Castle instead of just, teleporting himself and Link there? You're gonna need an explicit statement that Zant is reality warping an entire realm.

Vaati creating a pocket dimension with a starry sky (He is explicitly showcasing the Light Force's full power, so it doesn't make sense for it to be illusionary. Right before creating the dimension he says he is the "master of this world", meaning it is likely reality warping. Upon his defeat the dimension crumbles and it is extremely out of character for him to have teleported Link to and from the dimension.)

We also rejected this ages ago, our pocket dimension standards are pretty strick about this stuff so without an explict statement about an dimension being created we go with stuff like this being teleportation to another realm or something (I learned this the hard way as I was one of the dudes who helped initially made Vaati 4-A based on this a few years ago, only to find out it doesn't match the rules for pocket dimension feats). His goal is conquer Hyrule so I don't see why calling himself Master of this World would be referring to anything else, showcasing the Light Forces True power doesn't mean much beyond he's gonna fight (And try to kill) Link to prove how powerful he is, like, maybe he's about the dimension but we don't have enough to go off of.

Also it's out of character for Vaati to teleport Link to another dimension? Like, based on what? And what about creating a dimension to bring Link to is somehow more in character for him? It's not like Minish Cap established anything prior that Vaati would prefer to just make a whole dimension to bring people into before fighting them.

 

[Jason_Courne]

But you're trying to scale base Ganondorf to Demise, like bringing up what Link needed to beat Ganon in Ocarina of Time doesn't help your argument since Ganon has the Triforce of Power when he has all those weapons.

No I already brought up Demise is only talking about a singular incarnation of his hatred, he believes a singular version of Ganondorf is enough to doom Link and Zelda

Too bad the third Imprisoned fight has the True Master Sword << The Imprisoned

Too bad the True Master Sword is used to stab through and "kill" Demise
The Imprisoned is just really big, you can't "fight" it like Demise, and the main points of the boss fights with the Imprisoned isn't to actually defeat it but to reactivate it's seal and prevent it from getting through the Gate of Time

We've long rejected this since we not told he's explicitly moving the moon (And even then thr actual game itself seems to treat it as more of a natural event that increases his power instead of Ganon moving the moon closer to the planet before pushing back to normal orbit for some bizarre reason)

I've never been so confuddled... baffled even, "Even though Calamity Ganon is actively being suppressed by Princess Zelda, its power still bleeds out into Hyrule and occasionally causes a phenomenom known as 'Night of the Red Moon' or, simply, the Blood Moon"
It outright says Ganon causes it, it only happens when enough of Ganon's minions are killed, it only happens AFTER the Age of Calamity, and it conveniently revives all of Ganon's minions

why is it explicitly not time manipulation?

"Ganondorf has cast a spell to keep the sun from rising", that's not time manipulation it's stopping the sun from rising

I never understood why this was viable justification for time manipulation when it explicitly says its not, it's Ganondorf stopping the sun from rising

What says Zant is Warping an realm with a star to create an exact replica of Hyrule complete with the barrier Ganon set up around Hyrule Castle instead of just, teleporting himself and Link there?

Extremely out of character for it to be teleportation, Zant wants to kill Link, why would he teleport Link back to the Twilight Realm? Why would you HELP your masters GREATEST ENEMY?

Zant's goal was to merge the Twilight Realm and Light World as Ganondorf wanted (which is repeated in the Hyrule Historia), in the Hyrule Historia it says Zant blanketed the Twilight Realm in darkness

with stuff like this being teleportation to another realm or something

It is extremely out of character for it to be teleportation, he is literally trying to kill Link, why would he teleport him back?

As per our pocket reality rules

1. "There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.
2. There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.
3. Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes."

Vaati: "Heh heh heh.... you will not escape, boy. Now you will see the true power of the light force... For I have become Vaati, the master of this world!"

1. It's out of character for Vaati to use teleportation or illusions. He is explicitly showing off the Light Force's true power and states to have become the master of this world. Additionally upon his defeat the dimension crumbles to nothing
2. It's an entire shifting cosmos in the background featuring countless stars and nebulae
3. It was done via the Light Force, which empowers multiple characters (noticeably Hylia and Light Force Vaati), significantly amping their stats

 

[Dust_Collector]

No I already brought up Demise is only talking about a singular incarnation of his hatred, he believes a singular version of Ganondorf is enough to doom Link and Zelda

Ok but what does this have to do with anything? You were arguing base Ganondorf, the dude at the very start of OOT who has no Triforce pieces or anything of the sort, scales to Demise since the Deku tree senses him as being the biggest threat to Hyrule and one of your main examples of why he scales was mentioning what it took for Link to beat a stronger version of Ganondorf from the end of OOT when he had the Triforce of Power. Cool, Demise believes Ganondorf will doom them to forever deal with his murderous bullshit or whatever nobody denied that but saying that's enough reason to scale the two of them to each other is what's always been contested.

Too bad the True Master Sword is used to stab through and "kill" Demise
The Imprisoned is just really big, you can't "fight" it like Demise, and the main points of the boss fights with the Imprisoned isn't to actually defeat it but to reactivate it's seal and prevent it from getting through the Gate of Time

Yeah the seal has to be reactivated because you can't actually defeat in combat. Fi straight up says there's a 0% chance of Link beating the thing with just the Master Sword and he needs to slap the sealing spike to deal with it. Hell he even needs to go get the complete Triforce to finally put it down once and for all, honestly the fact that Link just somehow beats Demise despite needing the full Triforce to kill the Imprisoned earlier and can't harm it besides attacking exposed weak points means we have to just say Link just got stronger between the fights instead of saying the True Master Sword just naturally scales that high otherwise we end up with True Master Sword > Demise > Imprisoned > True Master Sword.

The Imprisoned being really big has no bearing on it's difficulty on being killed, Fi even comments "The monster has evolved to an immensely powerful state." right before telling Link he has a 0% chance of beating it so the intent is clearly more to do with how powerful it is than because it's too big and somehow that's why the Master Sword can't deal with it.

I've never been so confuddled... baffled even, "Even though Calamity Ganon is actively being suppressed by Princess Zelda, its power still bleeds out into Hyrule and occasionally causes a phenomenom known as 'Night of the Red Moon' or, simply, the Blood Moon"
It outright says Ganon causes it, it only happens when enough of Ganon's minions are killed, it only happens AFTER the Age of Calamity, and it conveniently revives all of Ganon's minions

Can't remember the exact reason it got rejected, think it's because in the same statement the guide makes about his power causing the blood moon it only talks about him staining the sky red instead of moving the moon, and I think a lot of people believed the actual game itself doesn't really imply it's his doing since Zelda talks about it like it's a natural event that empowers Ganon (Hence why he's able to suddenly revive his minions when it happens). Personally I always thought it was fine to treat the whole moon moving thing as legit but unfortunately it was rejected so we're stuck being unable to use it.

"Ganondorf has cast a spell to keep the sun from rising", that's not time manipulation it's stopping the sun from rising

I never understood why this was viable justification for time manipulation when it explicitly says its not, it's Ganondorf stopping the sun from rising

I think you're taking "keep the sun from rising" too literally, the games aren't a stranger to using flowery language to refer to things (Four Swords Adventures refers to a weather manipulation feat that causes eternal winter as time being frozen). It's just one of those things where without anything explictly making it clear that Ganondorf is doing something as incredible as stopping the sun itself we can't accept it.

Extremely out of character for it to be teleportation, Zant wants to kill Link, why would he teleport Link back to the Twilight Realm? Why would you HELP your masters GREATEST ENEMY?

It's out of character because? Zants only major character trait is that he's worships Ganon and is kinda whacky, and the only thing we know about his fighting style is from his final boss fight so I don't see how it's somehow just out of character for the dude, and even then how would warping Link across places help Link anyway? Link can come and go from the realm as he pleases due to the Mirror of Twilight so it's not like by teleporting himself and Link to the Goron Mines would somehow help Link, and I don't see why the only reasonable in character explanation is that Zant is just warping the entire realm to make it into an exact replica of Hyrule (Complete with the barrier Ganon had set up around Hyrule Castle).

Zant's goal was to merge the Twilight Realm and Light World as Ganondorf wanted (which is repeated in the Hyrule Historia), in the Hyrule Historia it says Zant blanketed the Twilight Realm in darkness

Ok his goal was to merge light and darkness, don't see how that's a point in favour of reality warping since even if it was him warping the realm he wouldn't be fulfilling that goal of merging it and the light world together by doing it since the light world would be unaffected by this. Also Zant blanketing the realm in darkness doesn't mean anything since the game shows that all he really does to the realm is turn the citizens into demons and trap some light deities in his palace.

It is extremely out of character for it to be teleportation, he is literally trying to kill Link, why would he teleport him back?

Ok what is this weird argument of it not being in character for certain characters to not do certain things, Vaati never shows an aversion to using teleportation he doesn't have a trait that makes it clear that teleportating Link to another dimension is such a ridiculous move for him to pull instead of the supposedly more simple and likely move of making an entire dimension first and then teleporting Link there?

Like, why is "Vaati warps Link to another dimension before they fight" not solid but "Vaati creates a whole dimension first before warping Link there before they fight" is? It's the same thing but with an extra step. Also the argument of him teleporting Link back works for the whole pocket dimension as well, why would Vaati send Link back to Hyrule after he's defeated within the dimension he apparently just made? Nothing suggests that Vaati has no control over his supposed dimension being able to just spit Link back out at Hyrule Castle or that the dimension fading away just naturally and conventionally sends Link back to the exact spot he was beforehand.

Link being warped back out of the dimension isn't really a point in favor of Vaati making a whole realm since no matter if it's simply teleportation to another realm or if Vaati made the realm, it makes no sense either way how Link just gets back to Hryule since when Vaati gets defeated there's nothing that should've put Link back.

Vaati: "Heh heh heh.... you will not escape, boy. Now you will see the true power of the light force... For I have become Vaati, the master of this world!"

1. It's out of character for Vaati to use teleportation or illusions. He is explicitly showing off the Light Force's true power and states to have become the master of this world. Additionally upon his defeat the dimension crumbles to nothing
2. It's an entire shifting cosmos in the background featuring countless stars and nebulae
3. It was done via the Light Force, which empowers multiple characters (noticeably Hylia and Light Force Vaati), significantly amping their stats

Again, nothing suggests it's out of character for Vaati to use teleportation. It was also decided against using Vaatis statement as solid proof of anything since he begins to fight Link after saying he'll show off the power of the Light Force so most people decided that it's more likely he's just referring to how he's about to attack and attempt to kill Link with his new power instead of using it to make a whole dimension to fight him in.

"There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location."

It was decided by this very site that Vaatis statement doesn't work with this rule. There's no detailed explanation, Vaati doesn't say anything beyond "Lemme show you how stronk the light force is" before engaging in a fight to the death (Or in his case, a fight to the seal I guess?), the site is very strict about this stuff to the point that if Vaati isn't straight up saying "Look at this dimension I made" or a guide mentions it being a dimension he made then it can't be used. These same rules got him downgraded from 4-A to 6-C back in 2021.

It's an entire shifting cosmos in the background featuring countless stars and nebulae

Cool, it's never been denied that those are actual stars and nebulae, but unfortunately because we have nothing that explicitly states the realm is made by Vaati we can't assume he made them.

It was done via the Light Force, which empowers multiple characters (noticeably Hylia and Light Force Vaati), significantly amping their stats

Again, without anything that makes it very explicit that a dimension is being made and not simply teleported into the Light Force allowing his magic to scale to his actual stats doesn't really mean much.

Sorry dude but you'd need to make a whole new CRT to get these accepted again because atm these have all been brought up before and rejected (Hell they've all been accepted and used at some point only to eventually be tossed to the garbage). I really don't want this CRT to get super derailed with other stuff I just want to focus on all the stuff I'm presenting here instead of basically arguing about a whole different CRT.

Like it's fine if you wanna continue the scaling with the Imprisoned, Demise, and Ganondorf since that'd be on topic but for everything else take it somewhere else and make your own CRT to get these things accepted again.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Demise has just failed to defeat Link and Zelda, yet he believes his future reincarnation will do a better job at torturing them. He is putting Ganondorf as a bigger threat than himself
In the Nintendo Power and Strategy Guide, it is hammered in that Ganondorf is a larger threat than anything before (which in-universe includes Demise)
In Wind Waker, after sacrificing their Triforce pieces, Ganondorf duels with Link and Zelda, the former possessing the Master Sword which was used to kill and seal Demise away

• "But first, I recommend attacking the beast's feet--where your sword can reach--to stop it from moving."
• "The monster has evolved to an immensely powerful state. I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%. I recommend you utilize Groose's defense apparatus. As a last-ditch measure, you can launch yourself, Master, as a projectile."

The problem isn't the Imprisoned being too strong, it's simply too big, because even after it's 3rd phase, the Master Sword is still capable of killing it's physical form by slamming the seal into it's head
The Triforce is needed to nix the Imprisoned's immortality

And in the end, it doesn't make sense to say "Link got stronger" when it's the Master Sword that kills Demise and seals away his essence, not Link's rippling biceps

 

[Dust_Collector]

"Demise has just failed to defeat Link and Zelda, yet he believes his future reincarnation will do a better job at torturing them. He is putting Ganondorf as a bigger threat than himself"
In the Nintendo Power and Strategy Guide, it is hammered in that Ganondorf is a larger threat than anything before (which in-universe includes Demise)
In Wind Waker, after sacrificing their Triforce pieces, Ganondorf duels with Link and Zelda, the former possessing the Master Sword which was used to kill and seal Demise away (No idea why my post isn't quoting this properly unlike everything else).

The Nintendo Power and Strategy Guide is basically worthless here since as I said earlier, they were written and made for a game that came out before Skyward Sword. The people making these guides weren't a part of the team making and writing the story for Skyward Sword (Unless there's interviews or something stating otherwise), it being an in universe explanation doesn't work since at the time Demise wasn't a part of the universe, the guide came out in june of 2011, Skyward Sword didn't release until november.

Really this really hinges on whether or not the imprisoned scaling is accepted or not. If it's generally agreed that the Imprisoned is >> The Master Sword there's no way Demise's statement can be taken as him making a dude just as stronger or stronger than he is when Ganondorf get's harmed by the Master Sword while a weaker form of Demise can only be slowed down and tripped if the Master Sword blows up his exposed toes and can't damage any other part of his body.

The problem isn't the Imprisoned being too strong, it's simply too big, because even after it's 3rd phase, the Master Sword is still capable of killing it's physical form by slamming the seal into it's head

Fi directly states that the main reason Link can't deal with it is due to how powerful it is, you even just posted the quote yourself, "The monster has evolved to an immensely powerful state. I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%."

This is not a statement that indicates that being big is the issue, Fi talking about how powerful it's become before calculating the chances of being able to beat it is indicating power is the big factor for why he can't beat it.

• "But first, I recommend attacking the beast's feet--where your sword can reach--to stop it from moving."

Being able to reach his feet helps sure but that's only because his feet have actual weak points to hit. Link is in perfect range to attack it's normal body when standing on it's head but still had to strike the sealing spike to damage it instead of just stabbing the thing. Hell the feet being in range means he can easily attack any part of the feet but he can't actually do anything to them besides attack specific white weak points.

the Master Sword is still capable of killing it's physical form by slamming the seal into it's head

But the Master Sword isn't doing anything here, it's just slamming another object that's being used to seal the imprisoned to eventually lock him back up again. The sealing spike is doing the work here harming and putting down the imprisoned, the Master Sword is just pushing the actual thing hurting the imprisoned.

The Triforce is needed to nix the Imprisoned's immortality

The Imprisoned isn't any more immortal than Demise is because, well, it's just an incomplete form of him. It's never said or implied to have a special immortality trait that it's true form somehow lacks. Ganondorf has regeneration and immortality that puts the Imprisoneds own immortality to shame but the Master Sword can still kill him just fine with a simple stab,

And in the end, it doesn't make sense to say "Link got stronger" when it's the Master Sword that kills Demise and seals away his essence, not Link's rippling biceps

It doesn't make sense but Skyward Sword has some pretty shitty writing at the end (Link pulling the genius move of not taking the Triforce with him back to the past so he can just curbstomp Demise and Ghirahim, somehow needing to go through all the effort of collecting the complete Triforce to actually kill the imprisoned before suddenly not needing it to beat it's true form for some reason) so it's the only way we can work with Link somehow being able to 1v1 Demise in straight combat but needing to use Hylias sealing spike to beat his weakened incomplete form).

 

[Jason_Courne]

It doesn't matter if it came out later, in universe OoT came out decades later from Skyward Sword.
It is still official Nintendo material for Legend of Zelda

It doesn't matter what happened from our perspective, in-universe Ganondorf is the greatest threat Hyrule ever faced, with previous threats including the likes of Demise

Imprisoned is >> The Master Sword

Yet the Master Sword is used to stab into, kill, and seal away Demise
End of game Master Sword = Demise > Imprisoned, Link uses the same Master Sword that was used to kill and seal away Demise in Wind Waker

Despite this it took Zelda with Light Arrows + Link with the Master Sword to fight Wind Waker Ganondorf

The monster has evolved to an immensely powerful state. I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%.

Yet moments later she practically says "just throw yourself at it, that could work" and it does. The Master Sword is shorter than a yard stick he all he can reach is the foot and maybe the ankle, but any slashes are meaningless due to the sheer size difference
The Imprisoned just evolved to have wings, of course a ground level weapon is useless against an air based opponent

In his fight with Demise, Link's usage of the Master Sword is notably better due to it facing a smaller more human sized opponent (and also probably just getting better with the blade)

Sealing Spike

The Master Sword is acting like a hammer, and bashing it into the Imprisoned's head

so it's the only way we can work with Link somehow being able to 1v1 Demise

The Master Sword out of nowhere gets the ability to just seal away Demise, so the sword itself probably got stronger
Also Triforce probably made the Master Sword stronger because Golden Goddesses

You can also just say Link got better with the Master Sword and that's why

 

[Qawsedf234]

It doesn't matter if it came out later, in universe OoT came out decades later from Skyward Sword.

In this case, it does matter because it's an out-of-universe source. If this was a statement made in-game then it might be perfectly valid in terms of useability, but from a guide, it's limited by what material was available at the time. It's why you can't use things like book cover advertisements for Star Wars scaling because it's an out of universe source that's subject to change.

 

[Dust_Collector]

It doesn't matter if it came out later

Basically what Qaesed said above.

Yet the Master Sword is used to stab into, kill, and seal away Demise

Never denied it did, just that the standard power of the Master Sword shouldn't be able to do that due to the third Imprisoned fight showing that outside of specfic weak points the Master Sword can't even cut the Imprionseds body.

Despite this it took Zelda with Light Arrows + Link with the Master Sword to fight Wind Waker Ganondorf

We don't count Light Arrows being needed for Wind Waker Ganondorf because of how whack it is. Base Ganondorf in Wind Waker can withstand being hit by multiple light arrows that can damage a far stronger version of himself that's amped by the Triforce of Power (And it's evil destroying thing doesn't matter here since Ganondorf isn't less evil than he normally is).

Yet moments later she practically says "just throw yourself at it, that could work" and it does.

Fi's statement is "As a last-ditch measure, you can launch yourself, Master, as a projectile." Which without context does sound like Link himself can hurt the Imprisoned by using his own body as a projectile from Groose's defense apparatus. But as the fight shows Fi telling him that he use himself as a projectile is just Link launching himself onto it's head to attack the sealing spike.

The Master Sword is shorter than a yard stick he all he can reach is the foot and maybe the ankle, but any slashes are meaningless due to the sheer size difference

Why does the size difference matter? He can still attack any part of it's foot yet the Master Sword cannot damage it outside of exposed toes (Or whatever they're meant to be), and the sealing spike can damage and make it roar in pain after being stabbed slightly into it's head (The Master Sword is long enough to reach as far as the upper part of the sealing spike can into the body) yet while standing on it's head the only thing he can do is push something that's already peirced the body in since he can't pierce the body with the Master Sword. Size doesn't mean that somehow you take less damage from something that's on par with a much stronger form of yourself.

The Imprisoned having gained the ability to fly isn't what makes the Master Sword useless here since it doesn't immediately start flying at the start of the fight (Fi's comment about having a 0% chance of winning via sword alone is before it creates that weird halo thing to start flying, that analysis is made as soon as the boss fight begins where it only walks)

The Master Sword is acting like a hammer, and bashing it into the Imprisoned's head

Cool, yet the Master Sword by itself gets no reaction from the monster if you swing it the Imprisoned heads while standing on it so the sealing spike is doing most of the work damaging the Imprisoned, the Master Sword is barely helping considering by itself it does nothing when you hit the Imprisoned with it.

 

[Jason_Courne]

But Demise basically says Ganondorf will do a better job than himself at defeating Link and Zelda, he is purely talking about OoT Ganondorf alone as he specifies a singular incarnation (with OoT being the first in-universe appearance of Ganondorf)

In this case, it does matter because it's an out-of-universe source.

• The Nintendo Power 248 came out in 2009
• Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap came out in 2004

By the time of the Nintendo Power's release, Minish Cap had already been released (in fact it's acknowledged within the article)
So the Light Force had already been established, the Light Force being the power source of Hylia

Master Sword can't even cut the Imprionseds body

But it stabs kills and seals-away Demise, and from that point on Link uses the exact same sword

Base Ganondorf in Wind Waker can withstand being hit by multiple light arrows that can damage a far stronger version of himself that's amped by the Triforce of Power

It was Link with the Triforce of Courage, Light Arrows, the Master Sword, AND also reflecting Ganondorf's own magic back at him
In fact you have to hit him with his own magic before you can damage him with Light Arrows

Link launching himself onto it's head to attack the sealing spike.

"The monster has evolved to an immensely powerful state. I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%. I recommend you utilize Groose's defense apparatus. As a last-ditch measure, you can launch yourself, Master, as a projectile."

He then launches himself and defeats the Imprisoned just as usual, it's not a matter of the Master Sword being too weak , it's the fact the Imprisoned is now flying

A ground level weapon effectively becomes 100% useless against an air based opponent
That is why Fi says it says it's impossible to defeat the Imprisoned in this state, because it's flying

yet while standing on it's head the only thing he can do is push something that's already peirced the body in since he can't pierce the body with the Master Sword. Size doesn't mean that somehow you take less damage from something that's on par with a much stronger form of yourself.

game mechanics
Also it's still physically harming the Imprisoned by physically forcing the sealing spike back into it's head

It's better to point out the Master Sword is used to kill and seal away Demise

 

[Dust_Collector]

So the Light Force had already been established, the Light Force being the power source of Hylia

What says it's the source of her power? All we know is that she can bless things like the Master Sword with it but nothing ever confirms Hylias power is derived solely from the Light Force.

But it stabs kills and seals-away Demise, and from that point on Link uses the exact same sword

Yeah, which is why it's being proposed that Link somehow gets stronger since there's no other way for it to make sense for the Imprisoned being too powerful for the Master Sword to so much as leave a cut but several well placed slashes can send Demise flying like 10 feet as he groans in pain.

It was Link with the Triforce of Courage, Light Arrows, the Master Sword, AND also reflecting Ganondorf's own magic back at him
In fact you have to hit him with his own magic before you can damage him with Light Arrows

What does bringing up what it takes to beat Triforce of Power Ganon have anything to do with his fight in Wind Waker (Which unlike the fight in OOT, has a Link that lacks the Triforce of Courage and never needs to hit Ganons magic back at him)? You argued that Ganondorf just naturally scales to Demise even in his normal unamped base form yet you keep using arguments that are about a more powerful version of him as a reason for base Ganondorf to scale.

He then launches himself and defeats the Imprisoned just as usual, it's not a matter of the Master Sword being too weak , it's the fact the Imprisoned is now flying

A ground level weapon effectively becomes 100% useless against an air based opponent
That is why Fi says it says it's impossible to defeat the Imprisoned in this state, because it's flying

Did you read what I said? Fi mentions the 0% chance thing at the start of the fight before the Imprisoned displays it's ability to fly, and mentions the 0% chance directly after talking about how powerful it's become.

game mechanics
Also it's still physically harming the Imprisoned by physically forcing the sealing spike back into it's head

When taking Fi's own statements into account it's hard to argue the Imprisoned being unharmed by normal attacks and needing to have the entire boss fight revolve around getting to it's sealing spike to seal it away again until a more permanent solution is found is just game mechanics. Yeah it's forcing the only thing that's shown to damage and is already pierced into it's body back into it's head cool, it's contribution is still minimal at best if it can't do anything to the Imprisoned without hitting something else into it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• The Nintendo Power 248 came out in 2009
• Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap came out in 2004

That's not relevant for comparing Demise to Ganondorf, which was what my comment was about.

 

[Jason_Courne]

What says it's the source of her power? All we know is that she can bless things like the Master Sword with it but nothing ever confirms Hylias power is derived solely from the Light Force.

Because 6-C+ Demise is currently based on scaling Hylia to Vaati through the Light Force
Also Zelda's magic is powered by the Light Force, and therefor so is Hylia

Also Also, Ganondorf scales to 6-C+ via his own storm feat in Wind Waker

which is why it's being proposed that Link somehow gets stronger

Ok and the Links are still reincarnations of one another and possess the Master Sword

What does bringing up what it takes to beat Triforce of Power Ganon have anything to do with his fight in Wind Waker

Base Ganondorf in Wind Waker can withstand being hit by multiple light arrows that can damage a far stronger version of himself that's amped by the Triforce of Power

You used that as a counterargument
In OoT Ganodorf isn't easily damaged by them and it's not "just the light arrows", it's Link with two of his strongest weapons (the Triforce and the Master Sword), and Link has to reflect Ganondorf's own magic back at him

In Wind Waker, while the light arrows don't actually harm him (because game mechanics) Ganondorf is still very visibly stunned by them

When taking Fi's own statements into account it's hard to argue the Imprisoned being unharmed by normal attacks and needing to have the entire boss fight revolve around getting to it's sealing spike to seal it away again until a more permanent solution is found is just game mechanics

Except Link is very visibly capable of causing great harm to the monster by hammering in the Sealing Spike and is capable of resealing it away

Fi's statement is then ended with suggesting Link throws himself at it

 

[Dust_Collector]

Because 6-C+ Demise is currently based on scaling Hylia to Vaati through the Light Force
Also Zelda's magic is powered by the Light Force, and therefor so is Hylia

Yeah, and one of things I'm proposing to change in this CRT is to change that 6-C+ scaling since nothing suggests the Light Force is the sole source of her power. And the only time you can reasonably argue Zelda's magic is solely powered by the Light Force is in Minish Cap since after that most of it is stolen by Vaati by the end of that game so later Zeldas such as one in BOTW sure ain't using the Light Force as the driving force as their magic.

Breath of the Wild even shoots the idea of scaling the Master Sword to Zelda/Hylias power in the foot, since a single divine beast laser is powerful enough to do severe damage to the Blight Ganons who can put up a fight with Link wielding the Master Sword, yet Calamity Ganon (In a weakened state no less) can withstand being hit with the combined energy of all 4 divine beast lasers and still harm himself, and of course Zeldas magic is capable of physically restraining Dark Beast Ganon and in Age of Calamity hurt a true power Calamity with her normal attacks.

Zelda after awakening powers she got from Hylia = (Roughly) Full Power Calamity Ganon > Incomplete Calamity Ganon >>> Blight Ganons = (Roughly) The Master Sword.

And as we know from the Encyclopedia the Master Sword is superior to the Four Sword which itself is roughly on par with Vaati who is empowered by most of the Light Force. There's no way Zelda in BOTW can be that much higher than Vaati while somehow only harnessing the exact same power source he does so there's major doubt the light force is the major factor behind Zeldas magical power in this case.

Also Also, Ganondorf scales to 6-C+ via his own storm feat in Wind Waker

This is not base Ganondorf this is Triforce of Power Ganondorf, who himself scales to High 6-A.

Ok and the Links are still reincarnations of one another and possess the Master Sword

Cool, doesn't particularly mean much.

You used that as a counterargument
In OoT Ganodorf isn't easily damaged by them and it's not "just the light arrows", it's Link with two of his strongest weapons (the Triforce and the Master Sword), and Link has to reflect Ganondorf's own magic back at him

He isn't easily damaged by them? If you successfully hit him with one he screams in pain and falls to the ground on his knees, his magic being reflected back at him is mostly helping with leaving him open to being hit by one the arrows it's not dropping his durability or anything.

In Wind Waker, while the light arrows don't actually harm him (because game mechanics) Ganondorf is still very visibly stunned by them

Yeah, which makes no sense since a vastly more powerful version of himself gets brought down to his knees when hit by one yet somehow without any amps from the Triforce of Power he can still withstand being hit by several of them without too much issue?

Except Link is very visibly capable of causing great harm to the monster by hammering in the Sealing Spike and is capable of resealing it away

Yeah Link is hammering in the only thing that actually damage the Imprisoned because he can't hurt it himself besides attacking it's exposed toes. The spike is clearly doing most of the work here Link just pushes it back in.

Fi's statement is then ended with suggesting Link throws himself at it

Yes, to land on it's head and attack the sealing spike which is how he beats the thing at the end. If you actually throw Link directly at the Imprisoned as a projectile he does nothing to it, the Imprisoned doesn't get affected by Link directly throwing himself at it, it doesn't even slightly stagger Link just bumps into it and continues barreling until he hits the ground.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

nothing suggests the Light Force is the sole source of her power

The Light Force is a source of "infinite power" (big air quotes), even if Minish-Cap Zelda permanently lost it Skyward-Sword Zelda would have still had, and so would Hylia

Also when bestowing the Master Sword with the Light Force, Hylia/Zelda specifically notes it as her "Goddess Power"

Zeldas such as one in BOTW sure ain't using the Light Force as the driving force as their magic

Yeah she's actually using the Triforce, shown again in Age of Calamity, in the CaC book it's been confirmed to be the entire Triforce

Unlike Skyward Sword, BOTW Link actually gets stronger even in the late game, by defeating each Divine Beast Link gets more health, an invincible shield, the ability to come back to life after death, the ability to command the winds, and the ability to summon lightning

If you want a quantitative upgrade You can probably just slap on a 4x rating for Late to End Game Link due to absorbing all four Champion's powers

Cool, doesn't particularly mean much

Except an earlier version of that sword is used to stab kill and seal away Demise (if you think about it, all of the Master Sword's have Demise's essence trapped in them)

If you successfully hit him with one he screams in pain and falls to the ground on his knees

Kinda like what happens to Wind Waker Ganondorf

his magic being reflected back at him is mostly helping with leaving him open to being hit by one the arrows it's not dropping his durability or anything.

It's like having an open fracture and then someone just pours an entire gallon of lemon juice mixed with a pound salt onto the wound
He can only be harmed after having his own magic reflected back at him, which means he must be weakened

Also OoT Link >>>>>> Wind Waker Link+Zelda

Yes, to land on it's head and attack the sealing spike which is how he beats the thing at the end.

Which proves the Master Sword was actually effective, Fi was merely talking about the range issue (hence Master Sword ALONE as in on it's own)

 

[Dust_Collector]

The Light Force is a source of "infinite power" (big air quotes), even if Minish-Cap Zelda permanently lost it Skyward-Sword Zelda would have still had, and so would Hylia

Yeah but Zeldas magic in Breath of the Wild is drawn from Hylia and she's far superior to beings that can contend with the Master Sword, so the Light Force being the only thing that Hylias power is derived form doesn't really make sense.

Unlike Skyward Sword, BOTW Link actually gets stronger even in the late game, by defeating each Divine Beast Link gets more health, an invincible shield, the ability to come back to life after death, the ability to command the winds, and the ability to summon lightning

If you want a quantitative upgrade You can probably just slap on a 4x rating for Late to End Game Link due to absorbing all four Champion's powers

Do you wanna know what else is a big reason for BOTW Link getting stronger even in the late game, Hylia empowering him whenever he gets enough spirit orbs. Her empowerment of Link is the most common and used amp he gets throughout the entire game, it's one of the reasons it's being proposed she scales to his endgame self. Also Link is already being proposed to get a 4x rating given his battle with Calamity Ganon.

Yeah she's actually using the Triforce, shown again in Age of Calamity, in the CaC book it's been confirmed to be the entire Triforce

We don't accept Zelda having the Triforce in BOTW (Otherwise she'd be 3-A already and I wouldn't have proposed things like Hylia and Demise scaling to the BOTW characters) due to it being vague or something, can't remember the exact details but the site only accepts Zeldas powers coming from what she inherits from Hylia. It is what it is I guess.

Kinda like what happens to Wind Waker Ganondorf

Since this is crossed out I can't tell if this is a serious argument or not, but in case it is, Ganondorfs reaction to being hit is not as severe as his reaction in Ocarina of Time where he is immensely stronger and it still makes no sense that he can reasonbly withstand weapons that can deal with a far stronger version of him

It's like having an open fracture and then someone just pours an entire gallon of lemon juice mixed with a pound salt onto the wound
He can only be harmed after having his own magic reflected back at him, which means he must be weakened

No it's not about him needing to be weakened first, he blocks any attacks thrown at him so he needs to be stunned by his own magic. Link doesn't suddenly have his durability drop when he gets hit by it, nothing suggests Ganondorfs durability gets so much lower that it's basically the same as when he doesn't even have the Triforce of Power he just gets stunned and is unable to react to and reflect any Light Arrows Link fires at him to prevent himself from being hit.

Also OoT Link >>>>>> Wind Waker Link+Zelda

Nobody was denying this, hell it's already accepted he's way stronger than those two given he's High 6-A and those two peak at 6-C, and I don't see what OOT Link being stronger than them has to do with base Ganondorf potentially scaling to Demise.

Which proves the Master Sword was actually effective, Fi was merely talking about the range issue (hence Master Sword ALONE as in on it's own)

How does it prove the Master Sword was actually effective and that the only issue was range? Again as I've stated before, there's plenty of times Link is within reach to just slash any part of the Imprisoned body (Like any part of it's foot besides the toes, or the head when he's standing on it) yet it can't so much as tickle the thing so Link has to resort to using the one thing that is already lodged within it's head.

If Fi was truly only talking about range being an issue why would she preface her 0% chance statement by talking about it's power? Why wouldn't talk about how Links sword is just too small to do anything or make the 0% statement only after it starts flying instead of before it shows that ability?

 

[Jason_Courne]

Zeldas magic in Breath of the Wild is drawn from Hylia

Yes but she's also using the Triforce, even if she isn't using it to it's fullest potential it's still the Triforce's power stacked ontop of her natural Hylia powers

Hylia empowering him whenever he gets enough spirit orbs

She's not actually empowering him, she's most likely just returning Link to his old strength Pre-Calamity. As in the Early-Game trying to wield the Master Sword will kill him and he's explicitly stated to be weaker than before

And honestly the entire thing is vague, it could just be Hylia giving you the energy from the Sheikah monks (as 4 monks = 1 health), similar to how Link can absorb the Divine Champion's powers for straight-up health and power

Ganondorfs reaction to being hit is not as severe as his reaction in Ocarina of Time where he is immensely stronger and it still makes no sense that he can reasonbly withstand weapons that can deal with a far stronger version of him

I mean it's borderline the exact same reaction, only difference is OoT is flying

Also it's a far stronger Link that fights OoT Ganondorf, while Wind Waker Ganondorf is fighting a weaker version of Link
OoT Link = OoT Ganondorf >>> Wind Waker Ganondorf = Wind Waker Link

I don't see what OOT Link being stronger than them has to do with base Ganondorf

Because you're treating it like Wind Waker Ganondorf is fighting Ocarina of Time Link with the Triforce of Courage, no he's fighting a base form Link with the Master Sword

nothing suggests Ganondorfs durability gets so much lower

He's essentially dropping his entire guard leaving him far more vulnerable to damage
The fact you need to force him to drop his guard in order to harm him with the Light Arrows, shows he is naturally far superior to the Light Arrows

How does it prove the Master Sword was actually effective and that the only issue was range?

When Fi say's "I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%"
We then later launch ourselves on top of the Imprisoned and bash it's skull in with the Sealing Spike, proving her wrong

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yes but she's also using the Triforce, even if she isn't using it to it's fullest potential it's still the Triforce's power stacked on top of her natural Hylia powers

Unfortunately Zelda having the Triforce at all is rejected on this site so we're stuck having to use just Hylias power. If the site accepted she had it I wouldn't be arguing for Hylia scaling to her on the basis of being the source of her powers.

She's not actually empowering him, she's most likely just returning Link to his old strength Pre-Calamity. As in the Early-Game trying to wield the Master Sword will kill him and he's explicitly stated to be weaker than before

And how exactly would her returning Link back to his old strength not count as empowering him? It's not like his old power just got sealed away and she's unlocking it or something.

And how is the whole thing vague? Nothing suggests she taking the power of the monks and giving it to Link, and she even straight up says "I will amplify your being".

Also it's a far stronger Link that fights OoT Ganondorf, while Wind Waker Ganondorf is fighting a weaker version of Link
OoT Link = OoT Ganondorf >>> Wind Waker Ganondorf = Wind Waker Link

I already know this, everyone already knows this. Which is why it's so wierd that one of your arguments earlier for BASE Ganondorf scaling to Demise was talking about what it took for a stronger version of Ganondorf.

"The thing is Demise is talking about a singular incarnation of his hatred, not his dozens of reincarnations

In all of Ganondorf's notable appearances as a final boss character (Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess), it takes a combination of Link, the Triforce of Courage, the Light Arrows, sometimes Zelda, and the Master Sword to defeat him. Which is noticeably more effort and weaponry than used to defeat Demise

In Ocarina of Time specifically, it takes Link + Master Sword + Light Arrows + Triforce of Courage + Ganodorf's own magic reflected back at him to defeat Ganondorf"

This was one of your main arguments, you were saying Ganondorf in base scales to Demise because of the whole being a bigger threat in a guide and saying that Demise himself believed his reincarnation would fare better than he did, yet you brought up his boss fight in Ocarina of Time where he is very explicitly not in his base form.

He's essentially dropping his entire guard leaving him far more vulnerable to damage
The fact you need to force him to drop his guard in order to harm him with the Light Arrows, shows he is naturally far superior to the Light Arrows

Dropping his guard is not mean he's also dropping his durability. Ganondorf shown he can reflect just about anything, even magic, so of course he can just repel the arrows before they hit him but can't repel them while being paralyzed by his own magic, nothing suggests that his magic somehow hurts him so bad his durability briefly reverts back to the same level that it was before he got the Triforce of Power, it just stuns him and he can't move his arms to stop incoming attacks.

This is demonstrated better in the fight with his beast form a few minutes later, where Ganon is in such a frenzied state he doesn't even attempt to defend himself from attacks like he did in his normal form. You can just shoot him with Light Arrows whenever you want because he won't try and block them like he did before and he roars and reels back in pain when they hit him. Seems pretty clear cut his reflected magic is just stopping him from blocking attacks instead of somehow dropping his durability back down to the same level as his base form.

Because you're treating it like Wind Waker Ganondorf is fighting Ocarina of Time Link with the Triforce of Courage, no he's fighting a base form Link with the Master Sword

??????

I've never even remotely treated it like that? Earlier you were talking about how base Ganondorf scaled to Demise and one of the examples you used was the Ocarina of Time fight which very clearly did not involve base Ganondorf and I've been confused as to why that was. I haven't been treating WW Ganondorf as fighting OOT Link with the triforce of courage at all. All I've been talking about in regards to WW Ganondorf is how we treat him withstanding light arrows as an outlier because they hurt a much stronger version of himself and I've been saying this in response to this specific thing you said;

"In all of Ganondorf's notable appearances as a final boss character (Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess), it takes a combination of Link, the Triforce of Courage, the Light Arrows, sometimes Zelda, and the Master Sword to defeat him."

You brought up him taking Light Arrows in Wind Waker as a reason for him scaling to Demise and all I've been doing is saying how him taking them in Wind Waker at all shouldn't be used as an argument for anything because he should realistically get instantly killed by them considering that they damage far, far, stronger versions of himself.

He's essentially dropping his entire guard leaving him far more vulnerable to damage
The fact you need to force him to drop his guard in order to harm him with the Light Arrows, shows he is naturally far superior to the Light Arrows

See what I said above. Beast Ganon fight shoots the idea of his durability dropping in the foot since as shown in that second phase the main issue was that he can stop the arrows from hitting him in the first place given that when he's not actively repelling attacks away from himself in beast form he's still able to get hurt by them. Him needing to drop his guard isn't a matter of him being too durable, it's just that he reflects anything thrown at him so he needs to be left open to actually getting hit.

When Fi say's "I calculate the odds you will defeat it by sword alone at approximately 0%"
We then later launch ourselves on top of the Imprisoned and bash it's skull in with the Sealing Spike, proving her wrong

Ah yes, her statement of the sword alone having a 0% chance of beating the imprisoned sure is proven wrong by uh...

Using something else to do the job (In this case the sealing spike).

 

[Jason_Courne]

Unfortunately Zelda having the Triforce at all is rejected on this site so we're stuck having to use just Hylias power. If the site accepted she had it I wouldn't be arguing for Hylia scaling to her on the basis of being the source of her powers.

You can argue her scaling to the full Triforce is an outlier, but she does indeed have it

And how exactly would her returning Link back to his old strength not count as empowering him? It's not like his old power just got sealed away and she's unlocking it or something.

And how is the whole thing vague? Nothing suggests she taking the power of the monks and giving it to Link, and she even straight up says "I will amplify your being".

Because it's his power not her's

She's trading the Monk's spirit orbs for health (or stamina), and she's also "amplifying" a severely weaker and inferior version of Link compared to his regular versions

Dropping his guard is not mean he's also dropping his durability.

Getting punched in the gut and getting punched in the abs are two very different feelings, despite it being in the exact same area one does a lot more damage than the other
Mostly because the guard is dropped

I've never even remotely treated it like that?

You are using the argument that "Since OoT Ganondorf gets harmed by Light Arrows, the Wind Waker boss fight is an outlier"

"We don't count Light Arrows being needed for Wind Waker Ganondorf because of how whack it is. Base Ganondorf in Wind Waker can withstand being hit by multiple light arrows that can damage a far stronger version of himself that's amped by the Triforce of Power (And it's evil destroying thing doesn't matter here since Ganondorf isn't less evil than he normally is)."

OoT Ganondorf is fighting a stronger version of Link, so that entire counterargument is mute

Ah yes, her statement of the sword alone having a 0% chance of beating the imprisoned sure is proven wrong by uh...

He did the first 2 boss fights by hammering in the sealing spike, and he ends the third by doing the exact same thing

She says the Master Sword is useless, but then Link just bashes the Imprisoned's skull in like usual

 

[Dust_Collector]

You can argue her scaling to the full Triforce is an outlier, but she does indeed have it

How would it be argued her scaling would be an outlier if she's directly getting amped by it, regardless the site rejected Zelda having the Triforce at all so it doesn't matter here unless it's somehow accepted she has it.

Because it's his power not her's

She's trading the Monk's spirit orbs for health (or stamina), and she's also "amplifying" a severely weaker and inferior version of Link compared to his regular versions

How is it his power and not hers? She's actively using her own power to amp him up, she's not unlocking some dormant potential that he hadn't been able to tap into since getting clapped 100 years ago.

Getting punched in the gut and getting punched in the abs are two very different feelings, despite it being in the exact same area one does a lot more damage than the other
Mostly because the guard is dropped

None of this proves that Ganondorf's durability magically drops down to his base form and there's still the fact that his second phase just a few minutes later proves that the main issue was simply him blocking the arrows, his stronger beast form reels back and roars in pain when you slap him with Light Arrows without stunning him first because he doesn't attempt to reflect them away like he did before.

You are using the argument that "Since OoT Ganondorf gets harmed by Light Arrows, the Wind Waker boss fight is an outlier"

???

I don't get your logic here. I bring up how the site treats the Wind Waker fight being an outlier due to Light Arrows and explain why, therefore I'm somehow treating WW Ganondorf as having fought Ocarina of Time Link instead of Wind Waker Link? Like, what?

He did the first 2 boss fights by hammering in the sealing spike, and he ends the third by doing the exact same thing

She says the Master Sword is useless, but then Link just bashes the Imprisoned's skull in like usual

And this proves Fi wrong how? You're saying Link "just bashes the Imprisoned's skull in like usual" as if Links raw strength is somehow doing most of the work here, if Link is so strong that it's his and the Master Swords power that's mostly harming the Imprisoned instead of the sealing spike then why does he ever need to specifically target the spike in the first place?

Why not just stab the Imprisoned in the head with the Master Sword (The sword def has the range to get as deep as the tip of the sealing spike does and that tip clearly harms it when pushed in a little) instead of going through all the effort to get to a specific thing that's lodged in it's head?

At this point we're just going in circles repeating our arguments at each other, the thread has been derailed with a discussion that has nothing to do with like 99%. We're gonna have to cut it out right now and just let everyone else decide if we're gonna make base Ganondorf scale to Demise, half this thread is currently dedicated to just this one argument and I don't want it to derail any further.

 

[Jason_Courne]

How would it be argued her scaling would be an outlier if she's directly getting amped by it, regardless the site rejected Zelda having the Triforce at all so it doesn't matter here unless it's somehow accepted she has it.

Except she objectively does regardless of how tiering works

How is it his power and not hers? She's actively using her own power to amp him up, she's not unlocking some dormant potential that he hadn't been able to tap into since getting clapped 100 years ago. his power and not hers?

Because he is explicitly weaker than before, to the point attempting to wield the Master Sword would kill him and he needs to regain his old power (which is health in this context) in order to become worthy once again
She's amping a far weaker version of Link, that is far below what his standard power is

and there's still the fact that his second phase just a few minutes later proves that the main issue was simply him blocking the arrows

So OoT Ganondorf can effortlessly block the arrows, yet Wind Waker Ganondorf needs to actively avoid and dodge them and stop Zelda from using them

I don't get your logic here. I bring up how the site treats the Wind Waker fight being an outlier due to Light Arrows and explain why, therefore I'm somehow treating WW Ganondorf as having fought Ocarina of Time Link instead of Wind Waker Link? Like, what?

You brought up the fact that Wind Waker Ganondorf "doesn't get harmed" by Light Arrows whereas Ocarina of Time Ganondorf does get harmed by Light Arrows, making Wind Waker Ganondorf's boss fight an outlier because OoT is stronger than Wind Waker

However that argument assumes both incarnations of Link are comparable in strength, which is not the case OoT Link is significantly superior to WW Link
Which means Wind Waker Ganondorf's boss fight with Link is


Also I'd like to bring back the point of Ganondorf > Vaati, which makes him still 6-C+

 

[Dust_Collector]

Except she objectively does regardless of how tiering works

Listen dude I've already said it's not even accepted on the site that she has it. We'd need to reverse that decision before any talk of her using it's power.

Because he is explicitly weaker than before, to the point attempting to wield the Master Sword would kill him and he needs to regain his old power (which is health in this context) in order to become worthy once again
She's amping a far weaker version of Link, that is far below what his standard power is

You haven't explained at all how this counters Hylia being the source of his amped power. Like cool he's explicitly weaker, everyone already knows that, doesn't change that she's the one amping him to the point he can pull out the Master Sword again since he's too weak otherwise.

So OoT Ganondorf can effortlessly block the arrows, yet Wind Waker Ganondorf needs to actively avoid and dodge them and stop Zelda from using them

And your point here is? Doesn't change the fact that WW Ganondorf can still withstand several of them which doesn't make sense since a far stronger version of himself gets noticeably hurt by them.

You brought up the fact that Wind Waker Ganondorf "doesn't get harmed" by Light Arrows whereas Ocarina of Time Ganondorf does get harmed by Light Arrows, making Wind Waker Ganondorf's boss fight an outlier because OoT is stronger than Wind Waker

I've never said Wind Waker Ganon just straight up doesn't get hramed by them (And even then how that even remotely ties into your claim that I somehow treated WW Ganon has having fought a completely different Link than the one he actually fought?), closest I said is he can withstand several of them without much issue since while they clearly cause him a great deal of pain he just kinda hunches over and after a few seconds is perfectly fine, which doesn't make sense since if the OOT fight is anything to go by a single one of these arrows should be annihilating him given that they can deal noticeable harm to a much stronger version of himself.

However that argument assumes both incarnations of Link are comparable in strength, which is not the case OoT Link is significantly superior to WW Link
Which means Wind Waker Ganondorf's boss fight with Link is

Please explain to me how that argument assumes both incarnations of Link are comparable, because all the argument is about is the Light Arrows.

Also I'd like to bring back the point of Ganondorf > Vaati, which makes him still 6-C+

6-C not 6-C+, as clearly outlined in the OP the + is being removed. And yeah sure fine if you wanna argue that I guess.

Let this be the last post on the subject so that my CRT can finally get back on track.

 

[Jason_Courne]

this counters Hylia being the source of his amped power

Because it's not "amped", she's only giving him his natural power
Link collecting the Champion's powers is considered an "amp", as it is an even further boost to his standard power level

And your point here is? Doesn't change the fact that WW Ganondorf can still withstand several of them which doesn't make sense since a far stronger version of himself gets noticeably hurt by them.

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is getting hurt by Ocarina of Time Link, who is objectively stronger than Wind Waker Link, so argument is mute

which doesn't make sense since if the OOT fight is anything to go by a single one of these arrows should be annihilating him given that they can deal noticeable harm to a much stronger version of himself.

It's a stronger version of Link fighting Ganondorf, that's why

Please explain to me how that argument assumes both incarnations of Link are comparable, because all the argument is about is the Light Arrows.

A stronger version of Link using the Light Arrows, where Ganondorf also needs to drop his guard in order to be damage

6-C not 6-C+, as clearly outlined in the OP the + is being removed. And yeah sure fine if you wanna argue that I guess.
Let this be the last post on the subject so that my CRT can finally get back on track.

I know the calc was readjusted to 6 -C, but considering it was caused by Vaati's seal weakening, and Ganondorf > Vaati, it should be enough for Ganondorf to just barely get a 6-C+ rating (to me it seems more like kinetic energy than CAPE but ehh)

Anyways, I'd be fine with slapping on a "possibly Island level" rating for his Gerudo form, separating Beast Ganon, and just ending this

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, the downgrade with Ganondorf was accepted. The main thing was the stacked scaling to Island level which was split.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Quick bump before I head to bed. Yeah we need more discussion about the sage scaling.

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, if others don't comment we can't really get anywhere.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I thought I already bumped this but turns out I forgot and it's been left hanging for almost 2 weeks oooppps.

Might be worth to tag more staff and more knowledgeable members on this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Who do you want tagged

 

[Dust_Collector]

I guess everyone who already commented (Since not everyone gave their thoughts on everything in the OP) and anyone knowledgable that hasn't already commented.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Makes sense from what I'm seeing. Though is it confirmed that its the same Volvagia in Adventure of Link, and not a species or recurring enemy like Gohma?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Though is it confirmed that its the same Volvagia in Adventure of Link, and not a species or recurring enemy like Gohma?

The very awful garbage Zelda Encyclopedia says that they're the same dragon

 

[SilentLyfe]

The very awful garbage Zelda Encyclopedia says that they're the same dragon

Okay. Looks good then.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

We've long rejected this since we not told he's explicitly moving the moon (And even then thr actual game itself seems to treat it as more of a natural event that increases his power instead of Ganon moving the moon closer to the planet before pushing back to normal orbit for some bizarre reason)

It Just means that when Ganon's Power Is less suppressed and reaches his peak, he without wanting to, thanks to the influence of his magic/demise, makes the Moon move out of his Orbit.

 

[Armorchompy]

Read up on a bit of the thread, what's the current discussion?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Read up on a bit of the thread, what's the current discussion?

At the moment the current discussion is about what I presented in the OP, we're just gonna ignore all the comments about feats we don't currently accept or base Ganondorf scaling to Demise. Biggest things to discuss specifically are the scaling involving the 7 Sages (Which would make several characters Island level+ to Large Island level) and whether or not Demises magic controlling the space he and Link fight in is applicable to anything besides his range.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean I feel like the latter should have its own threads since the OP isn't really pushing for it, but IMO scaling so many characters to one feat that's so high up is very questionable given the wording is quite vague

As for the sages I do find it a bit odd to assume that they are capable of such direct power, but I don't really have any solid arguments one way or the other.

There is something slightly cursed about 8-C Ganondorf. Not wrong, just... a lil cursed

 

[Dust_Collector]

I mean I feel like the latter should have its own threads since OP isn't really pushing for it, but IMO scaling so many characters to one feat that's so high up is very questionable.

Oh only 4 people would scale to it, Demise, SS Link (Endgame), Hylia, and True Form Ghirahim nobody else has much reason to scale given that the plan is to stop scaling the Master Sword to Demise due to the third Imprisoned fight putting that scaling into question. Although honestly I could save it for a future thread (Wanna clean up Skyward Sword stuff in general, especially a revamp for Demises profile) so I could save it for then so everything else here can be better dealt with.

There is something slightly cursed about 8-C Ganondorf. Not wrong, just... a lil cursed

It is gonna look so unnatural when it's applied to his profile