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The Legend of Zelda Majora's downgrade

Cumberjung

Cumberjung

437
37
I have talked it over with some other users on this tread and I have come to the conclusion that Majora's 3-A tier is invalid and some profiles need to be fixed. I'll put my reasoning into sections discussing each feat and why it should not be considered 3-A.


MAJORA CORRUPTING ALL OF TERMINA:

The main 3-A feat of Majora is talked about here and here and says that Majora corrupted all of Termina a parallel universe.

This is cool and all but we don't consider corruption of a universe as 3-A even if it extends beyond said universe. Just ask Dark Mind who did the same thing. Which means that the main feat behind the tier isn't based upon logic that we use.


MAJORA'S POCKET DIMENSION:

Majora also makes a pocket reality which is talked about here and is linked on his profile like the feat above.

The problem here is that it's a pocket dimension and is never described as a universe meaning we can't assume it to be universe sized. We can only assume it to be as big as we see which at best would be equivalent to demise's pocket reality feat.


MAJORA TRANSFORMS TERMINA:

This feat is not currently used and is from a source that's only debatably canonical but I saw it referred to on my previous Q&A thread so I shall address it as well. The feat comes from the Hyrule Encyclopedia and is described here on the middle right.

The problem is that even if we accept this feat transforming Termina isn't 3-A either especially without knowing by how much it was transformed or how fast it was done. This is especially especially true when the context seems to imply that he's only rearranging things that already exist instead of completely recreating everything (this is why everything in Majora's Mask resembles things from Ocarina of Time). I can rearrange my room but it doesn't mean I can destroy it and shaking the entire universe is only 4-A so this shouldn't be far off.


THE RESULTS

The profiles of Majora, Link(Majora's Mask), The Triforce, and those whose 3-A tier come from The Triforce, need to be downgraded appropriately.
 
Not to mention, "transforming the world into the land of Termina" implies that Majora altered the reality of planet to create the land of Termina, and not the entire universe-sized space-time continuum.

So that wouldn't even be a 3-A feat.
 
That feat really likes to contradict itself. Literally the next sentence says Termina is a parallel universe not the world transformed making it hard to use no matter how you look at it.
 
I contacted Paradox, and as I said. I'm neutral on this.
 
Cumberjung said:
That feat really likes to contradict itself. Literally the next sentence says Termina is a parallel universe not the world transformed making it hard to use no matter how you look at it.
Click to expand...
It says it's, "a parallel world with its own distinct culture".

Obviously referring to Termina being a parallel to the country, people, and other beings in Hyrule as universes don't have "culture", civilizations do.

I don't really think it mentions anything that can be interpeted in a universal sense.


Anyway, I got to head to class - so I got to go, bye.
 
Bye and also good point.

To reiterate the transformation of Termina is never put in a universal scale only the corruption of it is. Both of which are not even close to 3-A and the former is only by bypassing the unclear canon.
 
I'm starting to agree with the Majora and Fierce deity link downgrade, but I don't see the point in downgrading the Triforce too
 
The 3-A tier of the Complete Triforce is scaled from being supposedly superior to Majora and Fierce Deity Link. Downgrade those two and the Triforce goes with.
 
Triforce would still be far above the Wind Fish, so it would still be 4-A if it went through. But again, prefer input from more knowledgeable members like Triforce or Paradox.
 
Yes agreed the Complete Triforce should still be 4-A.

Also it appears Paradox is currently inactive so he's probably not the best person for this.
 
Azathoth and Matt, I'm sure they agree. But We all know Azathoth said he ain't coming back anytime soon. And Matt doesn't really have time for threads anymore. Kepekley is also inactive, but said to be supportive of 3-A Majora. Cal Howard has pretty much given up on defending 3-A Zelda even though he obviously supports it. I have brought it up on the Zelda chat group, but no one replied.
 
Since I am decently knowledgable on Zelda - my favorite franchise and all - I guess I should make a statement on my take.

I have always been a supporter of 3-A Triforce, but I have also always been against 3-A Majora scaling for it.
 
Is there another thing that would make the Triforce 3-A?

The only other thing on the 3-A section on its profile talks about it transforming the sacred realm but it seems to only be described as earth to sun distance in size.
 
Cumberjung said:
Is there another thing that would make the Triforce 3-A?
The only other thing on the 3-A section on its profile talks about it transforming the sacred realm but it seems to only be described as earth to sun distance in size.
Click to expand...
It's only accpeted as an Earth-to-Sun distance. Not described that way.

The feat is Ganondorf using the Triforce to change the Sacred Realm to reflect the evil in his heart, turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World which is stated in literally everything in the series (from games to countless guides) to be a parallel world to the Light World.

We know that the term Light World is not referential to the planet as the planet in Zelda isn't called the Light World, it's called Earth (stated by Miyamoto himself), and by the fact that there is a sun there as well shows it's not just the planet.

And so, stating that Dark World is only an Earth-to-Sun distance is stating that the Light World is only the size as well. Which would mean that the Golden Goddesses shouldn't be accepted as Tier 2 because they wouldn't have created a universal space-time continuum(s).

So either the GGs need a downgrade, or the Triforce needs to be 3-A.


Honestly, I find this to be perfectly acceptable reasoning, as needing to prove that Zelda's universe is universal in size is frankly ridiculous and unfaur because no other series has to do that - it's just assumed that when a God-figure creates a universe that it is universal in size unless the lore of the series states otherwise, which Zelda's doesn't.

But I digress.
 
As far as I see the dark world thing isn't much different from the corruption/mild transformation that is also described in Majora's feat which is what this thread is about in great part so I don't see why that would be 3-A either.

Is it directly stated he creates the dark world or is it just a transformation based off the reflection of his evil heart like you said above because that would make a big difference.
 
Cumberjung said:
As far as I see the dark world thing isn't much different from the corruption/mild transformation that is also described in Majora's feat which is what this thread is about in great part so I don't see why that would be 3-A either.
Is it directly stated he creates the dark world or is it just a transformation based off the reflection of his evil heart like you said above because that would make a big difference.
Click to expand...
The Dark World became the Dark World by Triforce altering the essence of the world (3-A Reailty Warping) based on the evil in Ganondorf's heart.
 
Personally that doesn't really sound like reality warping more like... well corruption but I'll digress for now as well. Let's continue the discussion on what to do with the Triforce after we conclude what we are doing with Majora.
 
Following this and might possibly debate this later. My current stance is in favor of downgrading Majora and FD, but STRONGLY against downgrading the Triforce.
 
Ok I know I said I'd discuss it later but why are we assuming that the sacred realm is the same size as the Light World in the first place? It's a parallel dimension don't we usually only assume them to be the size of what's seen unless described as a full universe? This is probably why it's currently only accepted as earth to sun distance in size.
 
Cumberjung said:
Ok I know I said I'd discuss it later but why are we assuming that the sacred realm is the same size as the Light World in the first place? It's a parallel dimension don't we usually only assume them to be the size of what's seen unless described as a full universe? This is probably why it's currently only accepted as earth to sun distance in size.
Click to expand...
Wasn't it referred in-game as the Light World, but in contrast? And I think we clarified that the Light World is an actual universe
 
To my knowledge the sacred realm isn't compared to the light world in a way that would indicate a similar size although if you find a source on it feel free to post it. Not that that alone would convince me as I still see no reason to believe what Ganon did with The Triforce was any more than corruption which would make it not a 3-A feat.

Either way Earth to Sun distance is the currently accepted size so unless the feat is upgraded later on The Triforce would be downgraded should this revision go through.

Speaking of which back to the revision at hand.
 
Heaven DIO does it only when using his powers, Drawcia and others can harm those who can survive their powers.
 
Cumberjung said:
Ok I know I said I'd discuss it later but why are we assuming that the sacred realm is the same size as the Light World in the first place? It's a parallel dimension don't we usually only assume them to be the size of what's seen unless described as a full universe? This is probably why it's currently only accepted as earth to sun distance in size.
Click to expand...
The Dark World is a parallel universe to the Light World - meaning they would the same size.

And no, we don't. We only do that for pocket dimensions - like Majora's in the moon, not parallel dimensions like Sacred Realm/Dark World.

And again, I have explained the failure of that logic - either downgrade the GGs or rejusify the 3-A rating for the Triforce.
 
To get back on track.

Now don't get me wrong as I am saying this - I still think 3-A Majora is wrong. I believe his corrpution quote to be mere flowery language, there is no proof that his pocket dimension is universal in size, and I have debunked the HE quote a million ways to sunday - so when I ask this I AM being objective about this.

Why wouldn't the corruption of the entire universe be 3-A? Just because Dark Mind isn't 3-A?

Did it ever come across to you that maybe Dark Mind isn't 3-A because he other feats that scale him much lower than 3-A and are more consistent? And that maybe his 3-A feat is an outlier?

You shouldn't base your understanding on the wiki's beliefs on one character - but on how the wiki treats and rates all characters.

Barring Dark Mind, what is your reasoning as to why wouldn't corrupting an entire universe to change fundamentally NOT be 3-A?
 
So far iv seen nothing that supports the downgrade in any way shape or form I'm going to repost what paradox said.

Wall of text in coming.

Hello to everyone passing by to check out this thread. Some of you may recognize me or not; this is irrelevant to the current subject at hand. I feel compelled to make this thread as I feel our current tiers for this franchise leave a lot to be desired, to say the least, and I hope to be able to once more convince an upgrade of yet another major franchise whose upgrades were denied multiple times.

Currently, the God-Tiers of Zelda (excluding the Goddesses) are High 4-C. The reasoning varies from the Trifoce corrupting the Dark World, which is considered an earth-to-sun size, Skull Kid with Majora's powers creating a space that contained a sun, and one other feat that I don't recall right now. While I digress with some of those, that's not what I will focus on in the first part of this thread. Rather, I will be focusing on another feat separate from those three that I believe to higher.

The Feat So, Majora's Mask. Some of the potentially upgrade-worthy things in this game have already been extensively discussed; for one, the possibility of Termina having been created by the Skull Kid has been discussed and deemed unreliable multiple times already. However, that is not the feat I will propose. Rather, the feat I will be proposing in the game is separate than him creating Termina itself.

During Majora's Mask, it is established multiple times that the Skull Kid's reality warping powers and corruption abilities were affecting the world of Termina, including the celestial bodies. However, the official guidebook for Majora's Mask, which received a Nintendo Seal of Reliability, states the following in a section talking about the Deku Temple's water:

"The water was once pure, but like everything else in the parallel universe, it has been tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's mask."https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net....prntscr.com/image/tcdfXlhLRz6LeDq7Lk5rNQ.png

This statement clarifies that the Skull Kid's distortions were universal in scale, corrupting the entirety of the universe of Termina. This could be potentially a little insufficient on its own, indeed, but there is a similar quote that further supports it in the lore entry in the prologue for the same guide:

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net....prntscr.com/image/SkbG1xLYR4mEQ8NV_JSEIg.png

Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time This section clarifies that the accursed powers he possesses are distorting more than just the moon - they are distorting the heavens, space, and time (the latter to an unknown extent) as well. As I hope everyone here realizes, the expression "heavens" in literary-mythological context is synonymous to "cosmos", as it is supposed to express the portion of the universe that is outside the Earth.

The Skull Kid with Majora should receive either a "Likely 3-A" or a straight up 3-A upgrade. This rating scales to the following characters.

Ganon with Triforce The Triforce Link with TF And Majora's profile should say

Universe level (Was corrupting and reality warping the entirety of the universe of Termina)

Majora has no anti-feats in the game, neither does the Triforce or any of the characters it fully-empowers. Link only scales with specific boosts, and his average key wouldn't scale, so no contradiction there as well to suggest this is an outlier.

Also all you brought up here were already debunked in a past thread

Way too Canon and after that mask was specifically designed by Majora to give Link the chance of beating him so as far I can tell the ratings should stay also the things I posted was from an official Nintendo powered manual with the official seal stating to Canon also the Manuel unlike the other ones does not contradict at all any of of the pre established lore of the MM event.


And actually supports strongly the 3-A statement by calling it literally a parallel reality as far as I can see this is good enough to keep the 3-A but I guess this isn't enough for Low 2-C.

04:44, July 10, 2019 GiverOfThePeace

GiverOfThePeace Kepekley and Ashen make a lot of sense.

05:16, July 10, 2019 Kepekley23 6 Kudos Kepekley23 cracks knuckles

> So this all comes from an English language guide, yes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this comment. I say this because, though it's been a little while since my last MM playthrough, none of this is remotely supported or suggested within the game.

None of this information could conceivably come from any character in the game without being extremely out of place and discarded by our standards. The whole plot revolves around the unaware citizens of Termina, Majora, and Link. It'd be extremely strange for random citizens to somehow know Majora is a universe-warper. Majora itself is mute and has zero lines in the whole game - Skull Kid not counting.

I mentioned this to several staff members in private a while back. I absolutely despise how we instantaneously treat in-game information as absolute and ignore the context whenever we stack it against guidebook information. It's obvious and pure common sense that a random NPC saying something they have absolutely no means of knowing would be overriden by a canon guide, an omniscient source of information which is only to be discarded when conflicting with characters that can be assumed to be perfectly knowledgeable concerning what they're talking about, or the narrator in the storyline.

> First of all, the game never shows anything "tainted" beyond the part of the world the game takes place within and a small moon

I have already argued against similar arguments with other verses so many times it isn't funny at this point, and I shall do so once again; it is completely irrelevant if, visually, a planet-bound game does not "show" anything being warped on-screen beyond the planetary surface. I have no idea why this is ever used as an argument. Were you expecting the game to randomly zoom into the stars and show them being distorted? This is an extremely unreasonable way of approaching a verse. If a canonical source reveals the true scale behind what is taking place in the lore of the game, then it can be used. It'd be something else if it were explicitly shown that only Termina was being affected and that the rest of the universe was explicitly fine, but it is not.

Going by the same logic, even an actual statement from the game would be unusable. If a character said the universe was warped, it wouldn't be matter because the extremely limited eyes of the audience are incapable of discerning whether the stars are being warped or not, hence it obviously "only shows planetary scale".

Bad logic is bad.

> Second, "tainted" does not mean Majora warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping."

Absolutely no universal distortion feat in fiction directly suggests that a character has "warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping", as redundant as that sounds. That's just something we assume by default because we consider universal reality warping as 3-A in terms of power. Directly assigning an energy value is impossible. Given the context behind the statement, it certainly sounds like it fits within what we consider "significant" distortion, hence, 3-A.

> and we very much see what a world warped by Majora looks like during the final confrontation inside the moon

...No, we don't. There is a rather large difference between him creating a world and him warping it.

> Third, we know the universe was not constantly being warped by Majora on any kind of significant level because unlike the moon, it does not immediately vanish/revert upon his defeat

This is headcanon. If one assumes the moon reverted to its original state upon his death, absolutely nothing prevents the wider universe from having gone through the same thing.

> The second statement makes the claim that the mask's influence has spread over "the moon, the heavens, space, and time". None of this seems to prove some level of large scale universal reality warping

On its own? Likely not.

When used together with the other statement? It heavily, heavily supports it.

> The first two are almost certainly related to Majora warping the moon and pulling it from the heavens (and summoning possible aliens that may or may not be aliens)

Except "moon and heavens" are separate in the statement, so it's very unlikely that's what it meant. "Heavens" is synonymous with "universe" (when used in an "outside the Earth" context), therefore Occam's Razor dictates that meaning is the one that should be used. Especially when you read the full statement.

> But I'd be far more willing to bet it's in regards to the fact a central point of the game is that you have to constantly turn back time in order to stop Majora from wiping out the world

Except the statement clearly refers to an action performed by Majora itself, not by others.

> This is incredibly flowery language that should not be used as one of the primary reasons for a massive upgrade.

Again; on its own, it is relatively vague. When used in conjunction with everything else, it heavily supports the rating.

> The third statement calls Majora's moon world an "alternate reality", which is true, but says nothing about its size. Majora's moon world contains a planet(oid) and a sun, and he can warp it at will into different things. That's all we're sure about and that's as big as it's shown to get. Being an alternate reality does not suddenly make it universal in size.

I heavily disagree with this. "Alternative reality" is synonymous to "parallel universe". It is used to denote a world that is extremely similar to our own, co-existing with it in all but the flow of time/events that took place.

If you wish to find an "alternate word" to describe something, you're finding a word that is identical in meaning, but different in spelling. This is no different.
 
Also Kep and Paradox should be brought here and a downgrade from 3-A to 4-A is way to big so I recommend you should get ALL knowledgeable members here and several staff because like I posted above a lot of things you brought were already debunked.

Aside from that you will need a lot and a lot of people to approve this and most of them have to be mods because this is way to big of a downgrade.


Plus it was agreed that characters could keep their ratings because like I said all problems with it were debunked.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3207408?useskin=oasis
 
@Warran Valion

The dark mind thing was brought up in a time when Magolor was 3-A and was meant to support a 3-A tier so it wasn't considered an outlier. It was denied by Azzy and it was deemed by the thread that 3-A corruption =\= 3-A AP/tier.

I apologize for bringing up other characters but I'm just much more experienced in that verse and believe that the wiki should be consistent.

Barring Dark Mind my reasoning would be because corruption is just too nonspecific of a description. It could be said that Hitler corrupted all of Germany but that doesn't make him country level. So it should be looked at what was done and how fast rather than the statement itself in that case which in my opinion this doesn't seem to stack up to 3-A AP.


@AshenCrow777

In your wall of text you just brought up things I'm already aware of and am trying to disprove. My opinion is the same simply don't agree with the reasoning.

Kep and Paradox seem to be currently inactive as mentioned above so getting hold of them will be difficult. I agree that all available knowledgeable members should be brought over.

I... really hate the word debunked. It implies a level of finality that just isn't something that can really be achieved when debating fictional feats of fictional characters and the hypothetical meaning of them. Especially in this case when it seems that a lot of people on this thread or otherwise are either against the 3-A or are neutral to it.
 
Also it appears (judging by when the commenting on this thread picked up intensity) that I have a vastly different schedule from the rest of you. I blame this on time zones but it might make it a bit tricky for me to properly participate on my own thread. Pity.
 
Cumberjung said:
@Warran Valion
The dark mind thing was brought up in a time when Magolor was 3-A and was meant to support a 3-A tier so it wasn't considered an outlier. It was denied by Azzy and it was deemed by the thread that 3-A corruption =\= 3-A AP/tier.

I apologize for bringing up other characters but I'm just much more experienced in that verse and believe that the wiki should be consistent.

Barring Dark Mind my reasoning would be because corruption is just too nonspecific of a description. It could be said that Hitler corrupted all of Germany but that doesn't make him country level. So it should be looked at what was done and how fast rather than the statement itself in that case which in my opinion this doesn't seem to stack up to 3-A AP.
Click to expand...
If Dark Mind was downgraded to 4-A, then yes, a supporting 3-A feat would be an outlier for a 4-A character.

And your Hitler example is just not an accurate comparison because you are using a real-world example in the case of fiction where it can't apply - Corrupting the universe isn't a metaphor because, by touching the Triforce, Ganon instantly changed the very nature on the entirety of the Sacred Realm, changing it into the Dark World.

It's an actual feat.


Now in the case for Majora, there is no feat - it's a random statement in guide from like twenty years ago which just states that Majora "corrupted everything in the universe" and that his "cursed guise can be felt on the moon, heveans, space and time..

It's not a feat, and it's a baseless statement which can be interpreted as just flowery language of how Majora's evil has affected everyone and every inch of Termina.

Nothing real supports that he is affecting all of reality instead of just the planet that Termina exists on.
 
@Warren Valion

At no point was Dark Mind 3-A. At the time it would have supported that another completely separate feat that was considered 3-A which would have upgraded the verse. Despite this the feat was rejected because it was determined that corruption can't be translated into AP which was a problem initially brought up by Azzy.

Sorry for the confusion. The point with the Hitler thing was just to show that the word corruption can be taken many ways not that that was what happened in this case.

Anyway I still disagree with the Triforce being 3-A but I suppose this can be discussed later on as the main point of this thread is to downgrade Majora and FD Link (also while not agreeing with a 3―A Triforce I am still MORE ok with it than a 3-A Majora due to the Triforce contextually having great significance as well as having high relation to the Golden Goddesses.

Now as far as the Majora side of this thread it seems that so far most people are either be in favor of the downgrade or is neutral about it so that's cool I guess.
 
Magolar was the one downgraded from 3-A to 4-A; and is now the last supporting 4-A feat left besides Drawcia; since the Dark Nebula and King Dedede feats are more like 4-B to High 4-C respectively. But that's off topic.

Corrupting a Universe over time is not universal, but reality warping the universe in an instant is. Especially if warping is basically a space-time destruction and recreation/resetting reality.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Corrupting a Universe over time is not universal, but reality warping the universe in an instant is. Especially if warping is basically a space-time destruction and recreation/resetting reality.
Click to expand...
Yes agreed.
 
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