The Jade Emperor's Tier & Chinese Myths (Part II)

[Kepekley23]

The first part of this discussion can be found here.

This thread's sole purpose is to discuss the tiering of the entity known in Chinese culture as the Jade Emperor. Sketches of his profile can be found here:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Udlmaster/The_Jade_Emperor

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think 1-A for it is pretty bull

 

[Udlmaster]

I think 1-A for it is pretty bull

I did go into specific detail about why he was 1-A, Sera disagreeing stems from her dislike for "fancy words".

Which more so seems an issue with The Transdualism page and not the Jade Emperor page.

 

[Antvasima]

Here are the other profiles:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Udlmaster/The_Jade_Emperor_(Journey_to_the_West)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Udlmaster/Sun_Wukong

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with them as well. I just see a lot of exagerations and suppositions and I consider Sera to be far more knowledgeable on this than you.

 

[Udlmaster]

I disagree with them as well. I just see a lot of exagerations and suppositions and I consider Sera to be far more knowledgeable on this than you.

Care to give specific examples?

 

[Udlmaster]

Because I clearly haven't, but please, go ahead tell me where I'm exaggerating or just making Suppositions.

And you considering Sera "far more knowledgeable" than me is totally irrelevant to the matter.

 

[Malomtek]

Bumping to say Udlmaster does have a point. You can't just say that a profile is bullshit without explaining why, Matt.

 

[Udlmaster]

Bumping to say Udlmaster does have a point. You can't just say that a profile is bullshit without explaining why, Matt.

Ya love to see it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, gotta agree. I have no more knowledge about the whole thing beyond overly sarcastic productions, but you can't just habe a page deleted (not saying you did it personally) and then say "it's wrong" and then just leave.

You have problems with quotes, iterpretations, feats, anti-feats and inconsistencies? Talking it out would be the best way to deal with it.

Let't not repeat the whole deal of needing to beg for reasons to being up and refused.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ya love to see it.

A touch too condesending I think, but the reference gets you a kudos all the same.

 

[Udlmaster]

A touch too condesending I think, but the reference gets you a kudos all the same.

 

[Antvasima]

It was tiered extremely high and based on an existing religion, not just Journey to the West, so that made a deletion warranted. We went over this for hundreds of posts in the previous thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, but that doesn't change the current situation, where the profile is said to be questionable but not being given reasons for.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The whole thing was based on using modern theology and second-source books that aren't even the religious texts themselves nevermind that the profile was a mish-mash of disparate sources applied through a grossly overestimated Vs-Debating lense.

 

[Kepekley23]

To be fair, Udl, most of your justification links were from historians or scholars describing real-life Chinese Daoist theology, so even if it wasn't your intention to make it into the actual religion, your sources still made it come off that way.

 

[Udlmaster]

It was tiered extremely high and based on an existing religion, not just Journey to the West, so that made a deletion warranted. We went over this for hundreds of posts in the previous thread.

But it's not. And it's still not. Which was my point in the last thread.

Peoples issue was with Mythology profiles and if Jade Emperor could be separated from it, which I recently found out that the Jade Emperor was myth originally and then was coopted by Daoism and incorporated into the religion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To be fair, Udl, most of your justification links were from historians or scholars describing real-life Chinese Daoist theology, so even if it wasn't your intention to make it into the actual religion, your sources still made it come off that way.

Exactly my point. You can't use second or third-han sources much less theology in profiles. Just feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's not start this argument for hundreds of posts again please. Everybody are sick and tired of it, and there was a clear staff consensus against using the profile.

 

[Udlmaster]

To be fair, Udl, most of your justification links were from historians or scholars describing real-life Chinese Daoist theology, so even if it wasn't your intention to make it into the actual religion, your sources still made it come off that way.

Actually, most of it is made up from the Journey to the West and other stories about the Jade Emperor, not theology.

The parr's relating to the Jade Emperor being appointed is apart of his original Mythological beginnings.

Remember, the Jade Emperor wasn't originally a Daoist God, he was purely Mythological until the Song Dynasty where Emperor Shenzong incorporated him into Daoism.

 

[Udlmaster]

The whole thing was based on using modern theology and second-source books that aren't even the religious texts themselves nevermind that the profile was a mish-mash of disparate sources applied through a grossly overestimated Vs-Debating lense.

"Second source"

Sorry, but I and literally every historian and theologist in history are unable to go to the original source of The Jade Emperor's tales as he was spread through oral tradition as all mythologies were at the time.

All theology books and Mythological books are all second, third, fourth and more down the line.

Hesiod the writer of the Theogony, the composite of Greek Mythology and the basis for what we attribute to the Greek Gods.

That is thousand-hand accounts on what the Greek Gods where, that book is "second hand" even though it's just writing down what The Jade Emperor's myths are and many similar Mythological Gods, such as his daughter.

 

[Malomtek]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that we can cite direct translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey for evidence of the power and might of the ancient Greek gods and heroes.

I'm pretty sure that there are far fewer such direct translations for the writings of any Chinese myth.

 

[Udlmaster]

The Iliad and the Odsyssey don't bring up the high feats for the Gods, they're not very well portrayed in there as the stories are more abou the Demigods and adventurers not the Gods.

Thr Theogony is based entirely on the Gods, and we draw feats from it, yet they are unknowable extensions of the origin stories, if they even are the stories, as they could just be ones made up by people Homer asked.

 

[Kepekley23]

Admittedly irrelevant nitpicking due to my OCD, but the Theogony was written by Hesiod, not Homer.

EDIT; Nevermind, I didn't read your earlier post lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

When I say second soruce I mean that rather than an old text compiling these traditionally orally told tales (Like pretty much every single old Epic Poem and religious text ever writtne), we are dealing with a modern scholar relating his analysis and interpretation of said texts.

Using the Kojiki to talk about Shintoism, which itself is a second-hand compilation of oral tales, is perfectly valid. But using a modern day western scholar to bring up their interpretations of the myths isn't.

 

[Kepekley23]

Depends on the context.

Someone who has dedicated a good portion of their professional life to studying, say, Egyptian history and mythology would obviously know a lot more and be way more reliable than some random dude like me reading the original myths for the first time through the lens of modern society.

 

[Udlmaster]

Admittedly irrelevant nitpicking due to my OCD, but the Theogony was written by Hesiod, not Homer.
EDIT; Nevermind, I didn't read your earlier post lol

I don't know why I said Homer kek

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

While actual Buddhism is 1-A, I find it dumb to scale to original religions even if the writer of the story followed said religion.

By that logic I could scale Yahvo (Myst) to Kabbalah since he's based on the creator of the verses interpretation of god and the verse has Kabbalah stuff in it.

 

[Udlmaster]

While actual Buddhism is 1-A, I find it dumb to scale to original religions even if the writer of the story followed said religion.
By that logic I could scale Yahvo (Myst) to Kabbalah since he's based on the creator of the verses interpretation of god and the verse has Kabbalah stuff in it.

Still not scaling anything to the actual Religion.

 

[BleedingPeach]

While actual Buddhism is 1-A, I find it dumb to scale to original religions even if the writer of the story followed said religion.

By that logic I could scale Yahvo (Myst) to Kabbalah since he's based on the creator of the verses interpretation of god and the verse has Kabbalah stuff in it.

Zachary, go home, you're drunk

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Bump

 

[Black-san112]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

What do we need to do here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Start an actual debate.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Udlmaster]

Start an actual debate.

Like I said, The Jade Emperor is NOT of Daoist origin, be belongs to Chinese Myth originally, so his Myths and the common idea of the origin of the world in the Chinese Mythos are fair game.

The profile, both Journey to the West and the original one I made are totally valid.

 

[Udlmaster]

Conclusion?

 

[Agnaa]

Let's not start this argument for hundreds of posts again please. Everybody are sick and tired of it, and there was a clear staff consensus against using the profile.

 

[Udlmaster]

Stated prior to any nuance was brought to the table.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask other staff members to give input here if you wish.