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The Glory vs. Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)

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And The Master said something about becoming The Glory itself. So, The Glory could be somehow a sentient being.
The Glory Master 2
The Master wants to become The Glory.


The Glory Master
The Master, speaking about The Glory's power.
 
I think these should be covered in content revision threads, then. Still doesn't mean he holds authority over the Beyond Realm, nor would he be as powerful as Beyonder. And lesser beings than him in his verse having Concept Manipulation also doesn't mean he has it. Zeno doesn't have Time Stop because Hit does.
 
> Still doesn't mean he holds authority over the Beyond Realm, nor would he be as powerful as Beyonder.


It has control over infinite dimensional multiverse. Beyond Realm is infinite dimensional.

So I dont see any problems here.


> And lesser beings than him in his verse having Concept Manipulation also doesn't mean he has it.


Powerscaling is a thing in VS debates.


> Zeno doesn't have Time Stop because Hit does.

Zeno is not a god/abstract who can control space and time.
 
What you're assuming is that it holds control over every single infinite-dimensional multiverse. You're assuming it can fully control every aspect of the Marvel Multiverse, the DC Multiverse, the Beyond Realm, et cetera. It's absurd, that's a No Limits Fallacy.
 
Also, powerscaling IS a thing, but it usually doesn't apply to abilities. Being more powerful than someone in one's own verse doesn't imply they can use their abilities. Zen-Oh isn't a God who controls space-time. He erases it. The Glory is simply a God who holds space-time together, not a Hadou who has control over basically every concept.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
What you're assuming is that it holds control over every single infinite-dimensional multiverse. You're assuming it can fully control every aspect of the Marvel Multiverse, the DC Multiverse, the Beyond Realm, et cetera. It's absurd, that's a No Limits Fallacy.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of "omniverse" I'm talking just about infinite dimensional multiverse, not a control over other settings.
 
You make it sound like all fictions exist in a single infinite-dimensional multiverse. Having control over the Doctor Who multiverse doesn't mean that he can control the Beyond Realm. He doesn't hold together every infinite-dimensional space-time, just a specific one.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
You make it sound like all fictions exist in a single infinite-dimensional multiverse. Having control over the Doctor Who multiverse doesn't mean that he can control the Beyond Realm. He doesn't hold together every infinite-dimensional space-time, just a specific one.
Click to expand...


Ok, it holds and infinite dimensional multiverse, a baseline one.

Beyond realm should be also a single baseline infinite dimensional multiverse. It is not multiple infinite dimensional ones.

So logically the Glory should be able to control Beyonder.
 
The Beyond Realm isn't a baseline infinite-dimensional structure. Comparing an infinite-dimensional multiverse with infinite infinite-dimensional universes in it is literally described in series as comparing a drop of water to an ocean. There are like hundreds of Quintillions of drops of water in the ocean, last I checked. There is also the fact that the Glory is limited to just holding together the verse it is in, and shouldn't extend to being able to fully control any infinite-dimensional structure. That's a No Limits Fallacy.
 
Oh, I thought you were referring to the statement about the Glory holding infinite dimensions together.

Are you implying that the Marvel Multiverse is hundreds of Quintillions of times smaller than a regular infinite-dimensional multiverse with no proof to back it up? The Beyond Realm is explicitly stated to be an infinite-dimensional Multiverse that's so big that in comparison, the Marvel Multiverse is just a drop of water in the ocean. He's also stated to be ten million times more powerful than all of the power in the Marvel Multiverse combined. He is faaaaar above baseline High 1-B. LT is already pretty far above baseline High 1-B.
 
Ok then


http://www.idoc.co/files/e567b1d706e18f6937-0.jpg

"The vortex is only a tiny tributary"


We know that the vortex is infinite dimensional:


"Imagine, if you will, a vortex. A really powerful vortex that drags into itself

anything that comes into its trajectory. A vortex made up of an infinite

number of well, levels for want of a better description. And if they seem to

diminish as they get towards the bottom of the vortex, rest assured, it's an

illusion. For this vortex has no bottom. It is, being constructed of chronon

energy, and thus temporal in nature, endless. Eternal. Bottomless, topless,

middleless. It is neither linear not multifaceted in existence. It is completely

unique and is, theoretically, situated at the centre of creation. Of course, in a

multiverse that expands exponentially and is unfixed and infinite in nature,

a 'centre' is a theoretical and practical impossibility For millennia, scholars

have tried to fathom the true nature of what they have come to refer to as

'The Spiral'. They have failed because, of course, they cannot tell whether

each time they examine the Spiral they are seeing it exponentially or

randomly."
 
And we're still forgetting that the Glory doesn't fully control every infinite-dimensional structure, it just holds it's own together. That's like implying that it could defeat all of the Endless or Thought Robot or Swamp Thing with the very limited control it has because they exist in an infinite-dimensional Multiverse. It's a No Limits Fallacy.
 
On the other hand Pre Retcon Beyonder has fails. For example - a part of his powers has been stolen by Dr.Doom. He also has some smaller fails. The Glory has no weaknesses except one - it needs to chance wielders.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
Oh, I thought you were referring to the statement about the Glory holding infinite dimensions together.
Are you implying that the Marvel Multiverse is hundreds of Quintillions of times smaller than a regular infinite-dimensional multiverse with no proof to back it up? The Beyond Realm is explicitly stated to be an infinite-dimensional Multiverse that's so big that in comparison, the Marvel Multiverse is just a drop of water in the ocean. He's also stated to be ten million times more powerful than all of the power in the Marvel Multiverse combined. He is faaaaar above baseline High 1-B. LT is already pretty far above baseline High 1-B.
Click to expand...
There is another way. The Glory is "omniversal". Pre Retcon Beyonder isn't. We know that current Marvel "omniverse" contains infinite multiverses. Infinite multiverses > quintillions multiverses.

DW "omniverse" contains "every multiverse" as well.


So The Glory = omniverse = infinity multiverses > > > quintillion multiverses = Beyond Realm.
 
The Beyond Realm still dwarfs the Marvel Omniverse.

Also, keep in mind that we don't use the term Omniverse in this Wiki. Something being stated to be an Omniverse wouldn't make it the equivalent. The Doctor Who "Omniverse" isn't automatically the same as the Marvel Omniverse just because they're both referred to as Omniverses. Read the Omniverse page. And then remember that if the Marvel Omniverse and the Doctor Who Omniverse were the same size, the Beyond Realm is still hundreds of Quintillions of times bigger.
 
"Dwarfs a multiverse". No, you do understand that Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of the Marvel Omniverse, right? And there are two beings equal to him in power, and they're all three just aspects of the Living Tribunal, who Beyonder easily defeated? He's more then 10,000,000 times more powerful than Multi-Eternity, Death, Infinity, and the Living Tribunal combined.
 
> No, you do understand that Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of the Marvel Omniverse, right?


This is the current version of Eternity. Old school Eternity wasn't "omniversal". Actually Pre Retcon Beyonder appeared before Marvel started to use term "omniverse".


> the Living Tribunal, who Beyonder easily defeated


Old school TLT was starbuster, wasn't he?


Anyway there are tons of omniversals in DW universe as well: Lampreys - the entire race of omniversal monsters. The Guardians - they "can do anything" in omniverse. The Grace - they are entire race who is beyond the Guardians. Also they created them and use them as their agents.
 
Living Tribunal was never just Star level. Stop downplaying. :/ You're now drifting to the point of naming off High Complex Multiversal characters and labeling them as "Omniversal". Do you understand how our tiering system works?
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
Living Tribunal was never just Star level. Stop downplaying. :/ You're now drifting to the point of naming off High Complex Multiversal characters and labeling them as "Omniversal". Do you understand how our tiering system works?
Click to expand...
Yes of course. I was just a devil's advocate who used your arguments against you (My multiverse is bigger than yours! No, my multiverse is bigger than yours!).


And by dimensional tiering they are at the same weight category. But the Glory hasn't the fails which Beyonder has. Beyonder is simply dumb for High 1-B.
 
> Possibly Nigh-Omniscient

> "Dumb"

> The Glory not being dumb when it is literally a nigh-non-sentient object.


Oooookay.


And I gave reasoning for why the Beyond Realm is bigger than the Doctor Who Omniverse. I compared the size of the Doctor Who Omniverse to the Marvel Omniverse, which is reasonable.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
> Possibly Nigh-Omniscient
> "Dumb"

> The Glory not being dumb when it is literally a nigh-non-sentient object.


Oooookay.


And I gave reasoning for why the Beyond Realm is bigger than the Doctor Who Omniverse. I compared the size of the Doctor Who Omniverse to the Marvel Omniverse, which is reasonable.
Click to expand...


DW Omniverse contains "every multiverse" within itself.

The Vortex (which is infinite dimensional structure) is just a "The vortex is only a tiny tributary" in comparison with the full omniverse.


Also, Beyonder is not "omniversal":

1) He is just a guest "from the different multiverse".

2) He appeared before authors of Marvel started to use term "omniverse".

3) The most imporant thing is that the current Marvel multiverse is infinite dimensional. The key word is "current". We dont know how higher dimensional was old school Secret Wars era Marvel multiverse. We know that PRB knows that there are infinite dimensions in the multiverse. But we dont know whether he has control over infinite dimensional multiverse or not. This thing is debatable.


(Yes, I want to say "nowadays version of Eternity > > > PRB". Possibly I will make a content revision thread soon)
 
> But we dont know whether he has control over infinite dimensional multiverse or not. This thing is debatable.


So still the Glory stomps.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
> But we dont know whether he has control over infinite dimensional multiverse or not. This thing is debatable.
So still the Glory stomps.
Click to expand...
The Beyonder is the Beyonder Realm, it is nothing but a void without him, so he definitely controls it.

And this wiki does NOT use "Omniverse" or "Omniversal", so please stop mentioning it.


Though I can definitely see the point that Current Marvel and 80s Marvel were on different levels of power, the Beyonder is still Infinite Dimensional though.
 
> Though I can definitely see the point that Current Marvel and 80s Marvel were on different levels of power, the Beyonder is still Infinite Dimensional though.


Even if Beyonder is aware of infinite dimensional space it doesn't mean he can control it nor infinite dimensional nature of the BeyondRealm itself.

Our civilization is aware of other galaxies but it doesn't mean current humanity can colonise even Milky Way.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
> Though I can definitely see the point that Current Marvel and 80s Marvel were on different levels of power, the Beyonder is still Infinite Dimensional though.
Even if Beyonder is aware of infinite dimensional space it doesn't mean he can control it nor infinite dimensional nature of the BeyondRealm itself.

Our civilization is aware of other galaxies but it doesn't mean current humanity can colonise even Milky Way.
Click to expand...
There is a moment where The Beyonder decides to get "physical" and stay in his Three Dimensional form instead of his Infinite Dimensional form.

The Marvel Universe during Secret Wars II was considered Infinite Dimensional.

So the abstracts were Infinite Dimensional and the Beyonder was a greater version of Infinite Dimensional.

Links:

http://static1.comicvine.com/upload...16/5031347-screenshot_2016-02-01-23-04-32.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/P7ZVIbCYzP...LVKA1WnrADAjAk-uwVLJdyhmf1Z2P6rMPxEZpGlhyr=s0
 
I'm gonna go with Beyonder for reasons which have already been gone over.
 
Doesn't really matter, Beyonder is at 7 votes with maybe 1 inconclusive; so this can pretty much be added immediately.
 
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