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FFX Revisions (Part 1: Tiering)

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ZephyrosOmega

ZephyrosOmega

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>I'm making another major FF revision thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1qju6V1jLM

Alright, here we go. I'm gonna be honest, our Final Fantasy X profiles are pretty bad and lackluster. They're leaving out a massive amount of abilities and such, but what I mostly need to fix... are their tiers.

Yeah, FF5 ain't the only one with inaccurate tiering. And unlike 5, 10 needs a downgrade. A big one. And this hurts me, because FFX is probably one of my favorite games in the series, if not THE favorite.

Without further ado, let's begin.

Low 6-B

http://web.archive.org/web/20160505...n-of-al-bheds-home-hd-remaster-edition.26682/ Feat for reference.

Low 6-B ratings for bosses come from Evrae being able to tank barrages from the Fahrenheit's missiles, which were able to absolutely wipe the Al Bhed Home on the map. But as you can see from the feat itself, there are a few issues with that. Mostly, the fact that it's clear the missiles aren't what's causing the Home explosion. The missiles themselves only generate a comparatively quite small chain of explosions that are LEAGUES smaller than the explosion of Home itself, which very visibly generates from inside the base itself. Furthermore, the initial explosion shown before the cut is massively faster than what it's shown to be after the cut, which inflates the values further.

Given this and what I'm going to have to bring up later, this seems unusable.

High 6-A

High 6-A comes from... Actually, I have no idea. Because it's only listed on one page! It supposedly comes from Anima and Seymour being superior to Ifrit, but FFX Ifrit is all-but featless. His best stuff shown would be Low into Tier 8 at best going off his overdrives.

I can only assume that this comes from a Dissidia statement that Noctis also uses. And if that's the case, this is ABSOLUTELY not usable. Summons in Dissidia are distinctly different entities from the summons in the normal games, and Yuna literally uses her version of Ifrit as a regular move. Summons share common characteristics across the games, yes, but stats are NOT one of those traits.

Being completely unsourced and shaky assuming the only possible source on the site, this needs to be removed.

Low 5-B

http://web.archive.org/web/20170520...feat-giga-graviton-hd-remaster-edition.26683/ Feat for reference.

And here's the big one. Sin's Giga Graviton, the ultimate attack that everybody is meant to scale from.

To make a long story short: They don't.

Know why?

Because this attack is a SCRIPTED GAME OVER when it hits you.

The entire point of the Second phase Sin fight in FFX is that you have to defeat it before its limit break bar is filled up. When it uses its limit break, no matter how strong you are, Giga Graviton instantly gets a game over. It doesn't deal maximum damage, it instantly transitions to the game over screen. The party is only able to fight the first phase of Sin by attacking weak points, which overall doesn't even hurt it much and only manages to piss it off long enough for them to go inside its body and defeat Yu Yevon from the inside.

The calc also assumes that it's an omnidirectional wave, despite clearly being vector-based. It clears out massive chunks of land in multiple straight lines across Spira which, while certainly powerful, is a far cry from omnidirectional like was assumed. But that's ultimately less of an issue.

So what's left?

Honestly, I'm not sure. The only other notable feats are Tier 8/7, and there isn't anyone notable like Gilgamesh to scale from, as he got replaced with Yojimbo. Hell, even Shinryu is just a breedable palette swap of Evrae. This is all I can think of that's left:

-Sizable Explosions which are probably around Tier 8

-Auron makes a tornado with his limit break, which is 8-A I believe

-Lightning Bolts are a thing that are 8-C

-Sin is shown to be capable of destroying cities

Assuming there's nothing notable left in the verse, the cast should be downgraded to City Level (Aided in the defeat of Sin, who is shown to be capable of destroying cities), and Sin should be downgraded to At least City Level (Capable of destroying entire cities like Zanarkand), Small Planet Level with Giga Graviton (Pulled rocks down from the moon and is able to one-shot a late-game party).

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Honestly, I'm not sure. The only other notable feats are Tier 8/7, and there isn't anyone notable like Gilgamesh
Click to expand...
>No Gilgamesh

0/10 worse FF
 
hmm

Either way yeah, beyond the fact that the moon appears to be way closer to this planet then on earth, thereby throwing Giga Graviton's numbers way off, it shouldn't scale to their base stat or the party.
 
Recalcing is one thing but they'd definitely still scale.

They were able to fight and defeat Jecht as Braska's Final Aeon. The Final Aeon is repeatedly stated to be the only thing capable of going head to head with and defeating Sin. Not to mention the Gullwings fight and defeat Zaon, another Final Aeon, as Paragon.

All Ifrits are capable of the statement at the very least. A bare minimum =/= sharing the same stats.

Also I have a FFX/X-2 revision in the works myself for abilities and the like so could you please hold off on that at the very least?
 
Hst master said:
Recalcing is one thing but they'd definitely still scale.
They were able to fight and defeat Jecht as Braska's Final Aeon. The Final Aeon is repeatedly stated to be the only thing capable of going head to head with and defeating Sin. Not to mention the Gullwings fight and defeat Zaon, another Final Aeon, as Paragon.

All Ifrits are capable of the statement at the very least. A bare minimum =/= sharing the same stats.

Also I have a FFX/X-2 revision in the works myself for abilities and the like so could you please hold off on that at the very least?
Click to expand...
A Final Aeon can still fight sin without scaling to Giga Graviton. Its AP doesn't scale to this singular attack. The normal party could still FIGHT Sin, it just didn't do much.

And no, all ifrits are not capable of the same already flowery statement that not only shouldn't be used as a bare minimum for the verse, but is a huge outlier given that Ifrit is one of the first aeons you get, before Low 6-B is even a thing. How are you going to defend scaling the entire verse to a statement that isn't even from the FF10 series and is leagues beyond anything else the party is capable of?
 
A Final Aeon can still fight sin without scaling to Giga Graviton. Its AP doesn't scale to this singular attack. The normal party could still FIGHT Sin, it just didn't do much.

And no, all ifrits are not capable of the same already flowery statement that not only shouldn't be used as a bare minimum for the verse, but is a huge outlier given that Ifrit is one of the first aeons you get, before Low 6-B is even a thing. How are you going to defend scaling the entire verse to a statement that isn't even from the FF10 series and is leagues beyond anything else the party is capable of?

This is assuming Sin never uses Giga Graviton against a Final Aeon ever in it's history. Which is highly presumptuous and faulty.

And again how exactly is it an outlier? Ifrit is straight up considered fodder compared to Sin and Final Aeons like every other Aeon. And these 3 feats are the only ones on the profile regarding AP. And again it's a direct statement of Ifrit's ap and only the bare minimum as there's several incarnations far stronger than High 6-A. Simply writing it off as Flowery Language is faulty.
 
Hst master said:
A Final Aeon can still fight sin without scaling to Giga Graviton. Its AP doesn't scale to this singular attack. The normal party could still FIGHT Sin, it just didn't do much.
And no, all ifrits are not capable of the same already flowery statement that not only shouldn't be used as a bare minimum for the verse, but is a huge outlier given that Ifrit is one of the first aeons you get, before Low 6-B is even a thing. How are you going to defend scaling the entire verse to a statement that isn't even from the FF10 series and is leagues beyond anything else the party is capable of?

This is assuming Sin never uses Giga Graviton against a Final Aeon ever in it's history. Which is highly presumptuous and faulty.

And again how exactly is it an outlier? Ifrit is straight up considered fodder compared to Sin and Final Aeons like every other Aeon. And these 3 feats are the only ones on the profile regarding AP. And again it's a direct statement of Ifrit's ap and only the bare minimum as there's several incarnations far stronger than High 6-A. Simply writing it off as Flowery Language is faulty.
Click to expand...
a direct statement for a different Ifrit.

That's assuming a final aeon (who scales off the party, by the way) is able to tank giga graviton without being oneshot, which is also presumptuous and faulty. Because every single one of Sin's shown feats are leagues below Giga Graviton, which one-shots the party. I shouldn't have to explain why you can't scale the party off an ability that oneshots them no matter how strong they are.
 
A direct statement for Ifrit in general.

And no, the Final Aeons scale to Sin, it's repeatedly stated that they are the only things besides Machina that is able to take on and defeat sin and the whole point of a summoner's pilgrimage is to obtain the Final Aeon. Your argument requires we assume Sin never used Giga Graviton in all it's battles against a Final Aeon.
 
Hst master said:
A direct statement for Ifrit in general.
And no, the Final Aeons scale to Sin, it's repeatedly stated that they are the only things besides Machina that is able to take on and defeat sin and the whole point of a summoner's pilgrimage is to obtain the Final Aeon. Your argument requires we assume Sin never used Giga Graviton in all it's battles against a Final Aeon.
Click to expand...
Well, considering that it

A) Takes a long amount of time to charge

B) Oneshots the people comparable to the final aeon

C) Doesn't need to scale to physicality

D) Is never SHOWN using it on a final aeon

Burden of proof falls on you to try and prove that it somehow scales to the people who are scripted to get a game over from it.
 
To be fair it's just the artwork used for the AUTO version, the same way the Yoshitaka Amano design is used for the MANUAL one, which aren't treated as separate characters. If you read the description you can tell it's written as a general for Ifrit as a whole and not a particular appearance, by listing the overall and most common characteristics, the list of games where he is found and in Dissidia 012 it lists game by game where he is found and what he does, using the same profile pics.
 
Well, considering that it

A) Takes a long amount of time to charge

B) Oneshots the people comparable to the final aeon

C) Doesn't need to scale to physicality

D) Is never SHOWN using it on a final aeon

Burden of proof falls on you to try and prove that it somehow scales to the people who are scripted to get a game over from it.

A.) Cinematic Time is a thing, it soley had a delay getting back to the party.

B.) And the Final Aeon is repeatedly stated to be comparable to Sin.

C.) It uses Gravity Magic to hold it's entire body together, the very same Gravity Magic that it uses for Giga Graviton

D.) Refer again to assuming not once in Sin's entire battles against a Final Aeon that it uses Giga Graviton. Despite that the core of your argument is that it does on the party. So how is it perfectly willing to use it twice on the party but somehow not once against a being that is repeatedly stated to be it's peer?

You're entire argument relies on acting as if the Final Aeon's Battles against Sin doesn't exist and that it doesn't like spamming it's Gravity Magic, despite it doing so frequently, and that it's somehow the 1st time it's used Giga Graviton since it's creation 1000 years ago and that it wouldn't use it against someone that it's equal or stronger than it. And you've yet to back up the claim that Giga Graviton has never been used against a Final Aeon.
 
Hst master said:
Well, considering that it
A) Takes a long amount of time to charge

B) Oneshots the people comparable to the final aeon

C) Doesn't need to scale to physicality

D) Is never SHOWN using it on a final aeon

Burden of proof falls on you to try and prove that it somehow scales to the people who are scripted to get a game over from it.
Click to expand...
A.) Cinematic Time is a thing, it soley had a delay getting back to the party.
B.) And the Final Aeon is repeatedly stated to be comparable to Sin.

C.) It uses Gravity Magic to hold it's entire body together, the very same Gravity Magic that it uses for Giga Graviton

D.) Refer again to assuming not once in Sin's entire battles against a Final Aeon that it uses Giga Graviton. Despite that the core of your argument is that it does on the party. So how is it perfectly willing to use it twice on the party but somehow not once against a being that is repeatedly stated to be it's peer?

You're entire argument relies on acting as if the Final Aeon's Battles against Sin doesn't exist and that it doesn't like spamming it's Gravity Magic, despite it doing so frequently, and that it's somehow the 1st time it's used Giga Graviton since it's creation 1000 years ago and that it wouldn't use it against someone that it's equal or stronger than it. And you've yet to back up the claim that Giga Graviton has never been used against a Final Aeon.

...Okay.

There's a lot for me to pick apart here, and clearly you aren't very knowledgeable in how FFX works.

But unfortunately, I have a speech for class i have to take care of, so that's going to hve to wait.
 
You're right. So here's one anyway.

A.) Cinematic Time is a thing, it soley had a delay getting back to the party.

Are you familiar with what a limit break is?

The ultimate attack of a character, that expressly needs to be charged and is far stronger than their attacks? Because Giga Graviton is that for Sin. If you would actually watch the battle, you would see that Sin is one of two enemies in the whole game to possess a limit break bar. It's an attack that he needs to CHARGE UP OVER TIME. And when he does? It

In fact, why don't we compare the two enemies with an overdrive bar? That's actually a good example for my point.

The two enemies with an overdrive bar are Sin and the Final Boss, Braska's Final Aeon.

Yes, that aeon you keep pushing as a method for them to scale to Sin, which is fought almost immediately after Sin (Inside Sin is the final dungeon, where the party immediately goes after fighting it), is the final boss, and possesses an overdrive gauge of its own. In fact, here's its overdrive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6-8qMDg1i8

Notice the difference?

The Final Boss, who's STRONGER than Sin, has an overdrive that DOESN'T one-shot the party, and CERTAINLY doesn't lead to a scripted game over. It's a strong attack, but Giga Graviton absolutely SWAMPS it in terms of power. The fact that the party can survive it at all immediately negates scaling, but it seems you've made a few more points, so let's go over them.

B.) And the Final Aeon is repeatedly stated to be comparable to Si

Yes. So we'll make the Final Aeon 7-B by scaling to Sin's normal feats, not Low 5-B from scaling it to a single limit break.

C.) It uses Gravity Magic to hold it's entire body together, the very same Gravity Magic that it uses for Giga Gravito

Okay, I guess that Rain is physically 7-B because his water attacks are the same magic that creates thunderstorms.

See the problem with using that analogy?

D.) Refer again to assuming not once in Sin's entire battles against a Final Aeon that it uses Giga Graviton. Despite that the core of your argument is that it does on the party. So how is it perfectly willing to use it twice on the party but somehow not once against a being that is repeatedly stated to be its peer?

Nice False Equivalency. Note that both times, Sin has to take a long time to charge up the attack. Good job putting words in my mouth and trying to accuse me of saying Sin never used its limit break.

You're entire argument relies on acting as if the Final Aeon's Battles against Sin doesn't exist and that it doesn't like spamming it's Gravity Magic, despite it doing so frequently, and that it's somehow the 1st time it's used Giga Graviton since it's creation 1000 years ago and that it wouldn't use it against someone that it's equal or stronger than it. And you've yet to back up the claim that Giga Graviton has never been used against a Final Aeon.

Your entire argument relies on acting as if the battle that we actually SEE ONSCREEN doesn't exist and making up headcanon.

Again, see the Rain analogy above. Sin spams gravity attacks. Know what Sin doesn't spam? Giga Graviton. In fact, you know what YOU have yet to back up?

That the Final Aeon, which is shown to be comparable to the party that GG oneshots, is able to tank hits from GG.

Yes, there is no cutscene or fight in the series that shows Sin using Giga Graviton against a Final Aeon. Given the fact that only the Final Aeon can defeat sin, through methods entirely unknown as it's all offscreen (though considering that the final aeon is inside sin and the lore alludes to piercing, we have a general idea), it's actually MORE erroneous to make up a scenario when what's actually shown is directly contradictory to that.
 
I am not very knowledgeable on FFX, but if the final boss reach a certain condition and can one-shot you with it why would the cast scales?

If the party can only fight the boss in nerfed state by attacking it weak point then they shouldn't scale.

The OP is making sense here.
 
ZERO7772 said:
I am not very knowledgeable on FFX, but if the final boss reach a certain condition and can one-shot you with it why would the cast scales?
If the party can only fight the boss in nerfed state by attacking it weak point then they shouldn't scale.

The OP is making sense here.
Click to expand...
The party can damage sin, but they're only able to kill it by going inside and taking down yu yevon. still doesn't scale to giga graviton.

Yell, even Yu Yevon just uses Gravija.
 
Just fighting someone doesn't mean you tank their biggest attack per say

Show Final aeon on screen taking a giga graviton to the face and it would be believable. Otherwise, it's not that reliable.

That said, I honestly think it might be easier to calculate the massive holes Sin makes across the earth than trying to work with the motherforker of an angle, but it shouldn't go below Tier 6
 
Are you familiar with what a limit break is?

The ultimate attack of a character, that expressly needs to be charged and is far stronger than their attacks? Because Giga Graviton is that for Sin. If you would actually watch the battle, you would see that Sin is one of two enemies in the whole game to possess a limit break bar. It's an attack that he needs to CHARGE UP OVER TIME. And when he does? It

And I'm not talking about the boss battle. I'm referring to the actual feat where he uses Giga Graviton. And secondly that is a gross misunderstanding of how Overdrives and Limit Breaks in general work. The LB gauge is soley Game Mechanics because by this logic...

-Cloud needs to charge Omnislash

-Squall needs to charge Blasting Zone

-Rikku needs to charge Mix, which is just her mixing items together.

In fact, why don't we compare the two enemies with an overdrive bar? That's actually a good example for my point.

The two enemies with an overdrive bar are Sin and the Final Boss, Braska's Final Aeon.

Yes, that aeon you keep pushing as a method for them to scale to Sin, which is fought almost immediately after Sin (Inside Sin is the final dungeon, where the party immediately goes after fighting it), is the final boss, and possesses an overdrive gauge of its own. In fact, here's its overdrive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6-8qMDg1i8

The Final Boss, who's STRONGER than Sin, has an overdrive that DOESN'T one-shot the party, and CERTAINLY doesn't lead to a scripted game over. It's a strong attack, but Giga Graviton absolutely SWAMPS it in terms of power. The fact that the party can survive it at all immediately negates scaling, but it seems you've made a few more points, so let's go over them.

Dude by this logic all boss that are timed like Demonwall, or Vargas are > The Final Bosses due to being capable of one shotting you in a timed battle.

Yes. So we'll make the Final Aeon 7-B by scaling to Sin's normal feats, not Low 5-B from scaling it to a single limit break.

An Overdrive it can take.

Nice False Equivalency. Note that both times, Sin has to take a long time to charge up the attack. Good job putting words in my mouth and trying to accuse me of saying Sin never used its limit break.

I didn't put words in your mouth, it's what your implying and is the crux of your argument that Sin has never used Giga Graviton against a Final Aeon. Which can't be proven and it's been shown to use it for less on the party.

Okay, I guess that Rain is physically 7-B because his water attacks are the same magic that creates thunderstorms.

See the problem with using that analogy?

And it's a poor analogy, Sin constantly uses it's Gravity Magic for a multitude of things including flight, Giga Graviton, and just holding itself together. Even it's casual blasts are Gravity Magic and we've only seen it casual against anything.


Your entire argument relies on acting as if the battle that we actually SEE ONSCREEN doesn't exist and making up headcanon.

Again, see the Rain analogy above. Sin spams gravity attacks. Know what Sin doesn't spam? Giga Graviton. In fact, you know what YOU have yet to back up?

That the Final Aeon, which is shown to be comparable to the party that GG oneshots, is able to tank hits from GG.

Yes, there is no cutscene or fight in the series that shows Sin using Giga Graviton against a Final Aeon. Given the fact that only the Final Aeon can defeat sin, through methods entirely unknown as it's all offscreen (though considering that the final aeon is inside sin and the lore alludes to piercing, we have a general idea), it's actually MORE erroneous to make up a scenario when what's actually shown is directly contradictory to that.

How is Sin using Giga Graviton more than once in it's entire creation headcanon?

See my response

The Final Aeon fights Sin by it's lonesome and Sin has been shown to use Giga Graviton for Less just for the party being near it. Just saying no u isn't enough.

And unknown methods? It directly fights Sin as besides Machina it's the only thing capable of harmimg it, heck a previous battle between Sin and the second Final Aeon resulted in the Calm Lands.
 
Ever is currently playing through FFX again and should find stuff to scale. Also Braska's Final Aeon should be stronger than sin.
 
Agreed with Matt that Ever is working on the game alongside HST Master.
 
So, as a rough estimate, I used the height of satellite in low earth orbit, since that seems kinda like where the moon is here, got 2.0552451099085 Exatons

That said, now that I think about it, the original blog also mentions that the guys stand way closer to sin than the moon does, meaning they'd have to take some amount of the impact. Not anywhere near enough to justify scaling to it, but probably more than 7-B depending on if I could find a good distance between them
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Ever is currently playing through FFX again and should find stuff to scale. Also Braska's Final Aeon should be stronger than sin.
Click to expand...
Did the point just go over your head? Yes, Braska's aeon is stronger than sin. and Its overdrive is STILL less powerful thn Giga Graviton.

So you're saying we should just completely discard the whole thread because Ever "SHOULD" find something?
 
Hst master said:
snip
Click to expand...
A feat that, when actually used on the party, completely oneshots them and is the strongest feat ever shown, which literally nobody else scales to because even SIN ITSELF has to charge it up

How do you miss the point this ******* badly
 
Come on guys, let's calm down, please. I agree we should analyze what we have here and discuss. We can bring Ever's input in due time.

While I have to look more properly at Sin and Giga Graviton, as well as the relation with the Final Aeon. There's still Vegnagun, which, IIRC, was capable of destroying Spira and was considered to be used as a weapon against Sin, but due to it's uncontrollable nature wasn't.
 
TartaChocholate said:
Come on guys, let's calm down, please. I agree we should analyze what we have here and discuss. We can bring Ever's input in due time.
While I have to look more properly at Sin and Giga Graviton, as well as the relation with the Final Aeon. There's still Vegnagun, which, IIRC, was capable of destroying Spira and was considered to be used as a weapon against Sin, but due to it's uncontrollable nature wasn't.
Click to expand...
Vegnagun would only scale to FFX2 protags.
 
Okay so, for reference as to what I said earlier with the guys withstanding the gravity

Assuming they're like 100 meters away from Sin, it would get 16.3551209253 Teratons, Country level, which would scale to their dura since, while they were knocked down by it, they weren't completely flattened and got up to fight sin afterwards

And of course it would still mean they'd get oneshot by Giga Graviton proper
 
A feat that, when actually used on the party, completely oneshots them and is the strongest feat ever shown, which literally nobody else scales to because even SIN ITSELF has to charge it up

How do you miss the point this ******* badly

Again I've already pointed out that Sin wasn't charging just because he has a Overdrive Meter. Sin is constantly pulling the ship closer and closer to launch Giga Graviton Point Blank with them at the epicenter in which Sin opens it's mouth and then fires on it's next turn when close enough.

Also Ever points out that the point blank Giga Graviton that kills the party belongs to Overdrive Sin, who is notably different from Base Sin, who's Giga Graviton is being calc'd. And that the projectile itself is what kills the party, what was calc'd was the gravity exerted by the spell which should be notably weaker than the projectile itself.
 
I mean, yeah but the transformation doesn't seem to be that much of a boost, considering the party is still more than capable of fighting them. If they were actually within the range of power that giga graviton showcases, they wouldn't just start being oneshot by it when they get slightly stronger

And considering that they never take a giga gravition, and just it being cast from a large distance away from them literally brought them to their knees, I don't see why it should be assumed that they're that strong normally without special moves
 
And that were at the very epicenter. GG was being formed right around them before the screen cuts to white instead of being launched like before. And yes it would be an unquantifiable boost between Base and Overdrive Sin.

And is this regarding the them scaling from the Gravity Exerted from GG or still on the GG during the boss fight?
 
There was a good... well, I dunno how far exactly since I'm in the process of calculating that, but they were far from the epicenter.

The gravity exerted is what I'm talking about, since it oneshots in the boss fight itself and wouldn't scale to their dura without proof that actually contradicts previous showings

speaking of calculations though, would there happen to be an official diagram of the airship's design in some way? I need to get it's width, and I only really have it's length to work with.
 
Im referring to the boss fight with Overdrive Sin when I say they were at the epicenter of it, not the cutscene

The gravity exerted isn't what one shots them, it's Sin creating the projectile with them at the center and then it cuts to white.

And would this work?

Fahrenheit-artwork-ffx.png
 
Hmm

Actually, yeah that might actually be valid if they really withstand the gravity point blank before just being obliterated by the blast itself

Not really but I guess that's not too significant
 
DMUA said:
Hmm
Actually, yeah that might actually be valid if they really withstand the gravity point blank before just being obliterated by the blast itself

Not really but I guess that's not too significant
Click to expand...
they didn't though

The screen fades to white before any gravity wave or blast or anything occurs
 
Well as much as I'd like to really look over the feat

It appears the video is unavailable somehow
 
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