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The Elder Scrolls: Metaphysical Studies and Discussions - Lesson One

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Are you talking about this comment:

"Oh I see. That is because she has been placed firmly into Mundus in all her glory. This is done via the use of protonymics and neonymics. It's quite crippling to a Daedroth and is even maddening. It wasn't a different characterization, more so a display of the maddening effect of pulling a Daedric Prince so fully into the mortal realm."

Because it also says her nymics were used to bind her to Mundus. Actually, this comment doesn't make sense to me because in the text they don't use her nymics to summon her initially, they just use a summoning ritual. So idk what they are talking about. Azura's OOC behaviour is just because MK doesn't like her I believe and it's a big reason as to why I never cared for the Trial.
 
>Kinda raped

Wow, you really think that Muatra is literally Vivec's penis, don't you?

Also

>Taking MK's jokeful response in a thread 100% seriously

He does that a lot. He says either cryptic or nonsensical stuff to confuse and divert the fans.
 
Well, that's what it represents... The implications are pretty clear.

"He does that a lot. He says either cryptic or nonsensical stuff to confuse and divert the fans."

So we should ignore everything he says? All of his answers in that AMA were clear and frank.
 
No it doesn't represent his penis, I'm frankly shocked you came to such a conclusion.

No we shouldn't, but we should have the common sense to figure out when it is legit and when it is a joking hint.
 
"No it doesn't represent his penis, I'm frankly shocked you came to such a conclusion."

What do you think it represents? The spear has always been allegorically linked to Vivec's genitalia amongst the lore community. It's not a new idea of mine, I've never attempted to make my own interpretation of the purple prose surrounding Vivec.

Here's what Vivec says to Azura before banishing her in the Trial:

"Here, this is Muatra. Guess what it represents."

"No we shouldn't, but we should have the common sense to figure out when it is legit and when it is a joking hint."

No hint of a joke.
 
Wow, you're actually going there. And no, it doesn't represent his penis, and I can't believe I'm going to actually write multiple paragraphs explaining Muatra to you.

Scratch that, I'm going to explain ALMSIVI Symbolism as a whole.

First of all, Muatra is a literal spear that Vivec uses. So it's not his genitalia, thank you very much. However, being the Poet God that he is, there is a symbolic meaning behind it. So what is it?

Well, let's go back to ALMSIVI Religion and Lore. The Dunmer of Morrowind worship their three Living Gods, Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil - But also three Daedra which are collectively referred to as "The Anticipations". Here's a quote from a book about it:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Anticipations

Boethiah is the Anticipation of Almalexia but male to her female. Boethiah was the ancestor who illuminated the elves ages ago before the Mythic Era. He told them the truth of Lorkhan's test, and defeated Auriel's champion, Trinimac. Boethiah ate Trinimac and voided him. The followers of Boethiah and Trinimac rubbed the soil of Trinimac upon themselves and changed their skins.
Mephala is the Anticipation of Vivec, but manifold and androgynous. Mephala taught the Chimer to evade their enemies or kill them with secret murder. Enemies were numerous in those days since the Chimer were a small [sic] with enemies on all sides. Mephala organized the clan systems that eventually became the Great Houses. Later, Mephala created the Morag Tong.
Azura is the Anticipation of Sotha Sil, but female to his male. Azura was the ancestor who taught the Chimer how to be different from the Altmer. Her teachings are sometimes attributed to Boethiah. In the stories, Azura is often encountered more as a communal progenitor of the race as a whole rather than as an individual ancestor. She is associated with Dusk and Dawn, and is sometimes called the Mother Soul. Azura's Star, also called the Twilight Star, appears briefly at dawn and dusk low on the horizon below the constellation of the Steed. Azura is associated with mystery and magic, fate and prophecy.
Each of the ALMSIVI is Anticipated by a Daedroth Lord which mirrors their persona and being. Note particularly the gender dynamics. Boethiah is male whilst Almalexia is female. Azura is female whilst Sotha Sil is male. Mephala can shift between genders whilst Vivec is both male and female at once.

This also reminds me of the Warrior / Mage / Thief Trinity which pervades so much of Elder Scrolls Lore and Symbolism. The Warrior being Masculine and thus Active, whilst The Mage is Feminine and thus Passive, with the Thief being the equilibrium-between. Now think of how in the ALMSIVI, Almalexia is The Warrior, being the most active and aggressive of the three, while Sotha Sil is The Mage, being the most passive and introspective of the three (Even being depicted as pregnant once), and Vivec is The Thief. He is the Warrior-Poet, after all.

Now, what does Mephala represent and how does it mirror Vivec? Well...

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vivec_and_Mephala

As known in the West, Mephala is the demon of murder, sex, and secrets. All of these themes contain subtle aspects and violent ones (assassination/genocide, courtship/orgy, tact/poetic truths); Mephala is understood paradoxically to contain and integrate these contradictory themes. And all these subtle undercurrents and contradictions are present in the Dunmer concepts of Vivec, even if they are not explicitly described and explained in Temple doctrine.
The Dunmer do not envision Lord Vivec as a creature of murder, sex, and secrets. Rather, they conceive of Lord Vivec as benevolent king, guardian warrior, poet-artist. But, at the same time, unconsciously, they accept the notion of darker, hidden currents beneath Vivec's benevolent aspects.
Mephala is the Daedric Prince of Sex and Murder, and thus paradoxically of Creation and Destruction (Sex being how life is generated, and Murder being a means through which life is ended). Note how this is paradoxical, but also very much aggressive. She's not the Daedric Prince of Procreation and Natural Death, after all.

Is Mephala's violent and paradoxical nature directly used in ALMSIVI Myth? Certainly:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec

And then the sixth spirit appeared, the Black Hands Mephala, who taught the Velothi at the beginning of days all the arts of sex and murder. Its burning heart melted the eyes of the netchiman's wife and took the egg from her belly with six cutting strokes. The egg-image, however, could see into what it had been before in ancient times, when the earth still cooled, and was not blinded.
It joined with the Daedroth and took its former secrets, leaving a few behind to keep the web of the world from disentangling. Then the Black Hands Mephala put the egg back into the netchiman's wife and blew on her with magic breath until the hole closed up. But the Daedroth did not give her back her eyes, saying:
'God hath three keys; of birth, of machines, and of the words between.'
In this Sermon, Mephala rips the egg-image of Vivec from his mother's belly with six cutting strokes, and upon seeing her "Burning Heart" (Heart as in a metaphor for something's center / soul) he merged with her and learned her secrets. Then Mephala put Vivec's egg back into his mother and revived her.

Mephala killed Vivec's mother, so that he could be properly born, the paradoxical relationship between Sex and Murder here exemplified.

So what is Muatra? Well, Vivec creates it in Sermon 14, after being forcibly married and abused by Molag Bal, Daedric Prince of Rape and Domination, for 88 days. Muatra itself is an anagram for Trauma, which should tell you a lot. Vivec then uses Muatra to free himself from Molag Bal and slay their children (Which represent Vivec's own imperfection):

But Vivec made of his spear a more terrible thing, from a secret he had bitten off from the King of Rape. And so he sent Molag Bal tumbling into the crack of the biters and swore forever that he would not deem the King beautiful ever again.
Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA, which is Milk Taker, and even the Chimeri mystics knew his fury. Anyone struck by Vivec at this time turned barren and withered into bone shapes. The path of bones became a sentence for the stars to read, and the heavens have never known children since. Vivec hunted down the biters one by one, and all their progeny, and he killed them all by means of the Nine Apertures, and the wise still hide theirs from Muatra.
Vivec here is creating a literal weapon out of his sexuality, both male and female (It is named Milk-Taker, not Milk-Giver, and those pierced with Muatra are withered of their vitality and become barren). In doing so Vivec is echoing Mephala, but in a different way: Muatra is Murder through Sex. His sexual trauma weaponized in vengeance. The paradoxical relationship between Sex (Creation) and Murder (Destruction) wielded by a Hermaphrodite God.

This is what Muatra means. Stop thinking it's a dick joke.
 
You clearly still think it's just a metaphor for his dick with no further meaning, in spite of what you say you read. Yes the shape is masculine but what it does is feminine.

And again, it is a literal spear Vivec uses in combat. He doesn't fight with his dick or whatever imagery you're sticking too. When I read about Vivec piercing Azura through her throat I picture something akin to impalement.

I don't want to know what you picture.
 
"You clearly still think it's just a metaphor for his dick with no further meaning"

Oh no. I'm sure it is supposed to have further meaning, it's just that I'm not interested in it. And in the context of the Trial, some meanings come across as more pronounced than others.

"When I read about Vivec piercing Azura through her throat I picture something akin to impalement.

I don't want to know what you picture."

Vivec stuffs Muatra into Azura's mouth. Azura chokes!

Hmm, I picture Vivec shoving it down Azura's throat, her puffing up like a balloon and then bursting. Really cartoonish.
 
"And in the context of the Trial, some meanings come across as more pronounced than others."

No they don't. The description is done in a way to confound and divert your attention. If you are easily swayed you will fall into a shallow interpretation and miss the deeper meaning. It is how we got "Lol Muatra is Vivec's penis" in the first place. People choosing not to look any further than the surface.

And no, I just picture Azura being pierced with Muatra and then literally exploding like Dagon does when he is banished through Neonymicis and Protonymics.
 
Are you seriously thinking that single line instantly means Vivec shoving down his dick into Azura throats?

Like holy shit, the line itself is pretty clear cut it's not some cartoonish stuff and more along the lines of it being a spear that Vivec wields which he impales Azure with
 
"No they don't. The description is done in a way to confound and divert your attention. If you are easily swayed you will fall into a shallow interpretation and miss the deeper meaning. It is how we got "Lol Muatra is Vivec's penis" in the first place. People choosing not to look any further than the surface."

To be fair I don't really look for deeper meaning in this sort of stuff. I'm not qualified to speak on the depth or quality of literature, so I try to avoid doing it. Not to mention that doing so reminds me of English literature from school, which just ruins reading for me.

"And no, I just picture Azura being pierced"

There's no piercing involved. This is the only description we have:

"Vivec stuffs Muatra into Azura's mouth. Azura chokes!"
 
His sermons and actions have deeper meaning and you fail to comprehend them, doesn't help either that your already biased against MK & Vivec.


"I tend to ignore most of MK's out of game work, some of it more than others. Partly due to bias: I just don't like a lot of his work, it just seems weird for the sake of being weird."

"I don't like how Vivec is somewhat of a gary stu and self insert and how the story seems to revolve around him."

"But then again I'm a Daedra fanboy so naturally I going to be biased"
 
Also if you insist that you don't care about the meaning why do you actively engage in discussions of meaning simply to deny it. You sound like one of those "Lol, stop overthinking it!" people.
 
Self Love said:
His sermons and actions have deeper meaning and you fail to comprehend them, doesn't help either that your already biased against MK & Vivec.

"I tend to ignore most of MK's out of game work, some of it more than others. Partly due to bias: I just don't like a lot of his work, it just seems weird for the sake of being weird."

"I don't like how Vivec is somewhat of a gary stu and self insert and how the story seems to revolve around him."


"But then again I'm a Daedra fanboy so naturally I going to be biased"
Click to expand...
I've not made a secret of this. Though my opinion on Vivec has changed a little. Edit: Actually I think my interest in the Daedra as declined also. I blame ESO's dialogue and voice acting.

We all have our biases. They are beyond my control.
 
So why do you insist in entering TES Lore Discussions if you hate it beyond the surface level? Only to go "This isn't Canon!" / "This is inconsistent!".

Also, you keep using the exact phrasing but ignoring context and the fact that Vivec is using a literal spear there.
 
Yes, we are all biased to different degrees here. The problem is when you let this bias cloud your judgement and start saying bullshit like:

  • MK just wanted to write something cool so he started to throw around invented words
  • I ignore MK because I don't like his texts
  • We don't even know (if) [Insert Lore-Thingy here] is real / What it is
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also if you insist that you don't care about the meaning why do you actively engage in discussions of meaning simply to deny it. You sound like one of those "Lol, stop overthinking it!" people.
Click to expand...
I don't typically. Most of my interest in the lore of TES is reserved to simple topics. I was a fan of the games long before I was a fan of the lore and I'd imagine I'll be a fan of the games long after I lose interest in the lore.

And I wouldn't say anything I've talked about here is discussing deep themes.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Yes, we are all biased to different degrees here. The problem is when you let these bias cloud your judgement and basically go saying stuff like:
  • MK just wanted to write something cool so he started to throw around invented words
  • I ignore MK because I don't like his texts
  • We don't even know (if) [Insert Lore-Thingy here] is real / What it is
Click to expand...
That's a good point and one I worry about from time to time. It's why I try not to take part in topics that are actually important; a few weeks ago I gave an opinion on some political issue and almost instantly regretted it, I felt awful for ages afterwards worried about biases and a lack of expertise etc.

"MK just wanted to write something cool so he started to throw around invented words "

I don't think I've said this, though I've probably said something similar. Like not liking stuff that seems too weird. It just seems cheap to me for some reason. A part of me says it's just a contrarian position on my part.

"I ignore MK because I don't like his texts"

Now to be fair I do like a couple of his OOG texts, but I ignore them also just to be balanced xD

Canon for me is an important topic in general. Not just in TES. I like things to feel official; because when everything is true nothing is true.

"We don't even know (if) [Insert Lore-Thingy here] is real / What it is"

What's wrong with this? Unreliable narration is a large part of TES.
 
You did. You literally said you ignore KINMUNE because it has nonsesical or invented words that MK only wrote to look cool. Although KINMUNE is a semi-troll text to I can see why partly ignore it.

MK overall isn't really incomprehensible, he just uses a lot of Verse Terminology in his texts.

What's wrong with this? Unreliable narration is a large part of TES.

The fact that you apply this argument to almost every concept in the Verse. Like, I recall that you pretty clearly said we don't know what CHIM is, when we absolutely do know its applications and that it is a concept well-rooted in the Lore of the verse. Heck, Vehk's Teaching directly tells you everything about CHIM, and has Vivec making a reference to Amaranth at one point

Although I guess that is mostly just ignorance regarding the wider Metaphysics of the verse. Since... I actually recall you questioning if the Planes of the Aedra really exist

Also the fact that... TES has an "All Myths are True" approach in reality. Like, many Gods exclusive to certain pantheons objectively exist and so do other concepts in the verse.

Auri-El's bow clearly exists and is a recurring artifact, we talk to an avatar of Talos in Morrowind, Shor has a real, physical throne in Sovngarde, The Heart of Lorkhan is 100% real and we see it with our own eyes. Nevermind that we literally meet all of the Daedric Princes in every game since Daggerfall, and that the Maruhkati Selective caused a Dragonbreak by trying to erase aspects of Aka
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Your approach is diametrically opposed to TES as a whole.
Click to expand...
In the time of Arena and when fans were writing parts of the lore I'd say this statement would definitely be true. But now that TES is a huge franchise I can't see the open-ended nature of its lore ever returning.

Zenimax owns TES, not the fans. And I think I like that.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's not like I wrote a blog solely to show that MK's OOG "Fanfics" are canon.
Click to expand...
We have different standards for what is canon. It would take an edict from Bethesda for me to consider everything MK says as canon (though when just discussing lore I avoid talking about canon these days). So far we only have Pete Hine's saying "it depends" when asked if OOG texts are canon.
 
No we have about 90% of his OOG Lore being included in either Skyrim or Elder Scrolls Online with direct references to the events of C0DA in the 37th Sermon.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No we have about 90% of his OOG Lore being included in either Skyrim or Elder Scrolls Online with direct references to the events of C0DA in the 37th Sermon.
Click to expand...
The lore writers of ESO using parts of his work is not the same thing as him being canon in general to me. Though I said months ago that C0DA has legitimacy now (even if I still haven't read it).
 
""You did. You literally said you ignore KINMUNE because it has nonsesical or invented words that MK only wrote to look cool. Although KINMUNE is a semi-troll text to I can see why partly ignore it"

I think I said this in the context of it being a poor text to scale from for battleboards.

"The fact that you apply this argument to almost every concept in the Verse. Like, I recall that you pretty clearly said we don't know what CHIM is, when we absolutely do know its applications"

What applications? Ignoring C0DA (as I haven't read it) what objective feats does CHIM have? The most explicit statement I'm aware of is Camaron saying it allows you to reshape the land, which doesn't tell us much.

"and has Vivec making a reference to Amaranth at one point"

Oh yeah, Amaranth/s are/ is... a thing. Both Mora and Vivec have mentioned the idea.

"Since... I actually recall you questioning if the Planes of the Aedra really exist"

Ehh I sorta remember saying something like this. Though I don't remember the context. I'm guessing it was some thread on reddit where the Op was asking something to the effect of why we can't see the planet's in-game. I just remember it being a question that hadn't occurred to me before. Though I don't seriously believe this... I think. It's quite easy to make me feel unsure about things :D

"many Gods exclusive to certain pantheons objectively exist and so do other concepts in the verse. Auri-El's bow clearly exists and is a recurring artifact, we talk to an avatar of Talos in Morrowind, Shor has a real, physical throne in Sovngatde and we literally meet all of the Daedric Princes in every game since Daggerfall"

This doesn't mean that Bethesda doesn't use the unreliable narration trope. Like with the Malacath and Boethiah stuff.

Edit: Btw guys sorry if I've come across as too aggressive or if I've insulted any of you. This entire discussion has been super draining and I don't know why I can't stop seeing as I don't even take part in battleboards anymore.
 
Malacath and Boethiah is not unreliable.

Also if you want feats for CHIM Tiber Septim warps the entire Aurbis with it in Tiber Septim's Sword-Meeting with Cyrus the Restless.
 
I meant how it happened. Mortals think Boeithiah literally excreted Malacath. Malacath tells us it wasn't a literal event.
 
CHIM is explicitly said to be a way of attaining Transdualism and transcending the boundaries of the Aurbis in Vehk's Teaching, and the Sermon 11 of Vivec states that those who achieve CHIM can manipulate and break all "Bones" (Likely referring to the Earthbones), except for the "Heart Bone", the Heart of Lorkhan

The waking world is the amnesia of dream. All motifs can be mortally wounded. Once slain, themes turn into the structure of future nostalgia. Do not abuse your powers or they will lead you astray. They will leave you like rebellious daughters. They will lose their virtue. They will become lost and resentful and finally become pregnant with the seed of folly. Soon you will be the grandparent of a broken state. You will be mocked. It will fall apart like a stone that recalls that it is really water.
"Keep nothing in your house that is neither needed or beautiful.

"Ordeals you should face unimpeded by the world of restriction. The splendor of stars is Ayem's domain. The selfishness of the sea is Seht's. I rule the middle air. All else is earth and under your temporal command. There is no bone that cannot be broken, except for the heart bone. You will see it twice in your lifetimes. Take what you can the first time and let us do the rest.
~ The Thirty-Six Sermons of Vivec ― Sermon Eleve​
 
Except he does, Shazam. The Ruling King is a position which is directly related to CHIM, MK even pointed that out in his diagrams.
 
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