The Conundrum of R>F without HDE or Transcendence without HDE

[TheGreatJedi13]

As we are aware we generally do not accept R>F as a basis for HDE alone and would need dimensional existence (physical or mathematical) to be extrapolated as part of what it grants before it grants any HDE.

Now the issue lies in that we usually do not assume a character does not possess any form of unconventional resistance to almost anything on the lower dimension except in cases said Character has HDE which includes Psuedo invulnerability for having an extra axis that is deemed unreachable or something that cannot be affected for the hax would lack the range to affect the entirety of higher dimensional being and would only affect an infinitesimal amount of it virtually making them unaffected in this case.

Now in cases that a character is assumed to exist in a higher reality in the form of R>F most hax are assumed to be on the level of that reality the character exists in.
For ease of explanation, we will try to equate the level of reality to the dimensional level or theory (AKA R>F transcendence over a regular 4D universe is 5D although they aren't really 5 dimensional in math or physics they are simply more real or exist in higher reality)

Now it is a common practice I see that we assume the level of hax is on the level of the character it affects. Mind manip working on someone with R>F over 4D universe (5D) is assumed to have a potency of 5D hax and haxes at a lower reality/dimension is deemed ineffective against them unless it has feats of being able to affect entities on their level

This is similar to people with HDE where we cannot assume they can be affected due to their size and on the contrary someone who is still 3D yet has AP or durability of let's say Low1-C can still be affected as they remain 3D and not HDE or exist in a higher reality.

Now in the case of transcendence of another character being Low 1-C due to how they are beyond an infinite universe and spacetime as a whole in terms of size or physiology yet lacks the proof that they are higher dimensional with extra axis or someone from a higher reality are we to assume they would have similar resistances to those 5D beings but not possess HDE?

And another question is does having R>F over something and existing in a higher reality really make them invulnerable to most haxes on lower reality?

The reason for this question is that HDE is often required to assume one person to have unconventional resistance due to sheer size or extra axis. but the Case of R>F is less clear compared to HDE yet we still assume they have unconventional resistance to it. and how Transcendence to spacetime grants or doesn't grant similar stuff HDE and R>F as both are common methods of Qualitative superiority

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

To answer this,
Having HDE makes you invulnerable to all physical hax on the lower level, while the rest depends on the contexts and how the verse in question treats them in the case of mental and spiritual.
Same goes for R>F and Transcendence.

If there is a question you have that I missed let me know

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Im aware what HDE grants and their pseudo invulnerability im asking more on r>f and transcendence and why are they treated as such and explanation to it because the argument from HDE cannot be argued for them as they do not possess HDE.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Im aware what HDE grants and their pseudo invilnerability im asking more on r>f and transcendence and why are they treated as such and explanation to it as the argument from HDE cannot be argued for them as they do not possess HDE

For R>F, something you consider as fictional cannot interact with you in any form e.g. your thoughts and it is even more potent form of Transcendence than a regular mathematics HDE

Transcendence (which is in ontological terms), the higher being is more real than the lower one, so it becomes said that those attacks become unreal to you

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

For R>F, something you consider as fictional cannot interact with you in any form e.g. your thoughts and it is even more potent form of Transcendence than a regular mathematics HDE

One of the acceptable R>F is The Allegory of the cave or Plato's cave.
Where the shadow becomes the reality to those who are in the cave despite the people in the cave are much more real than it. Yet they are convinced that is the reality until they are set outside the cave.
This is one counterargument to how a lower and fictional thing can affect a much more real entity and them outright believing it.

Another example is a optical illusion of a flat object affecting a normal human causing adverse effect to their perception.

In the sense with these 2 example it portrayed how a fiction can affect ones in reality depending on circumstances even without ontological difference to whom they are affecting.

As you said in HDE case it is up to the verses whether this would include spiritual and mental things.

Do we also assume these in R>F unless the verse itself extrapolated and expanded on how soul and thoughts as well and how would an argument such as the 2 example above be argued upon?

 

[PrinceofPein]

One of the acceptable R>F is The Allegory of the cave or Plato's cave.
Where the shadow becomes the reality to those who are in the cave despite the people in the cave are much more real than it. Yet they are convinced that is the reality until they are set outside the cave.
This is one counterargument to how a lower and fictional thing can affect a much more real entity and them outright believing it.

Another example is a optical illusion of a flat object affecting a normal human causing adverse effect to their perception.

In the sense with these 2 example it portrayed how a fiction can affect ones in reality depending on circumstances even without ontological difference to whom they are affecting.

As you said in HDE case it is up to the verses whether this would include spiritual and mental things.

Do we also assume these in R>F unless the verse itself extrapolated and expanded on how soul and thoughts as well and how would an argument such as the 2 example above be argued upon?

You are saying in the case in which the higher being perception is twisted to think that something that is unreal is real and something that is not there is there?
I really do not think any fiction treats it that way so it is hard to answer in battleboarding terms.
And personally I do not think Mental and Spirituality should automatically gain HDE without the verse stating it to be so, but I do not know the wiki standards on this topic, but I will ask

 

[DontTalkDT]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/hax-vs-tier-2-1-0-lower-dimensional-hax-vs-higher-dimensional-physiology.117433/

My opinion on the matter of hax vs Tier 1.

 

[AKUTO123]

Actually r>f stronger than math hde

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/hax-vs-tier-2-1-0-lower-dimensional-hax-vs-higher-dimensional-physiology.117433/

My opinion on the matter of hax vs Tier 1.

I've read this before and I've read it again.

Currently for R>F you argued a person lowering themselves to the level of fiction would make themselves susceptible to lower hax (VR example)
Would this example also apply to those who create avatars of themselves in lower reality?

form that can cause adverse effect such as madness type 3 would still affect them. Does this also extend on other examples such as subliminal sounds or messages of lower reality if the higher being hears it?
Although these are rare cases this i believe should still be a valid argument to affect entities and i do agree with it.

As for higher dimensional so in the case that a higher dimensional person only has 3D soul or mind they would still be unaffected because of probability of hitting them is infinitely small unless they have the range to do so.

This do in fact make sense but what about cases where the hax does not need to travel (thought based that lands on wherever the specific target is)
or
hax that has homing capability (although this one can be easily argued that due to size the time it would take for said hax to reach it would be infinite due to it only able to travel infinitely small area)
Would the former be really able to affect said entity?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You are saying in the case in which the higher being perception is twisted to think that something that is unreal is real and something that is not there is there?
I really do not think any fiction treats it that way so it is hard to answer in battleboarding terms.
And personally I do not think Mental and Spirituality should automatically gain HDE without the verse stating it to be so, but I do not know the wiki standards on this topic, but I will ask

Sure thing. And i agree R>F still tries to follow reality as we perceive it yet we know examples exist where in despite R>F there are few rare unconventional method that a fiction can affect Reality and we simply cannot ignore those as those comes with the transcendence that we assume the verse applies and qualified for but do not elaborate it enough to actually tackle these particular instances that is likely irrelevant to the story it tries to deliver thus often left vague in these parts

 

[DontTalkDT]

Currently for R>F you argued a person lowering themselves to the level of fiction would make themselves susceptible to lower hax (VR example)
Would this example also apply to those who create avatars of themselves in lower reality?

Like, going by the reasoning I presented in that thread it would obviously depend. As I made clear it is not all hax that would be effective, not even close. My argument was that a R>F character which transfers its consciousness to a lower world (via VR or something) would make their mind in particular part of the world and hence vulnerable. Meanwhile, with the physical body not being lowered to that level, most other hax would still remain ineffective.

Now, transferring that reasoning to avatars it would obviously depend on how the avatar works. If the character manifests the consciousness of the user in the lower reality then I think it would be similar. If the avatar is just a puppet controlled from the higher reality the mind would be safe, though.

Of course, the avatar's physical body would usually have no special hax resistance, seeing how in exists entirely on the lower level.

form that can cause adverse effect such as madness type 3 would still affect them. Does this also extend on other examples such as subliminal sounds or messages of lower reality if the higher being hears it?
Although these are rare cases this i believe should still be a valid argument to affect entities and i do agree with it.

If the effect is not due to supernatural power taking effect, but really just due to sound patterns or vision patterns and stuff, then I would say yes.

As for higher dimensional so in the case that a higher dimensional person only has 3D soul or mind they would still be unaffected because of probability of hitting them is infinitely small unless they have the range to do so.

Yes, that's what I would argue. Unless there's evidence of the opposite, of course.

This do in fact make sense but what about cases where the hax does not need to travel (thought based that lands on wherever the specific target is)

Even then you would need evidence that it can travel beyond 3 dimensional space and find the characters soul/mind there.

hax that has homing capability (although this one can be easily argued that due to size the time it would take for said hax to reach it would be infinite due to it only able to travel infinitely small area)

Well, that and, again, it would need feats of even being able to leave 3 dimensions. Most homing attacks can't do that.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Snip

That clarifies a lot. Thanks
Although since you mentioned this is your opinion and how you would argue it. I'll wait for other who may think differently unless they also agree with yours

 

[Fixxed]

Actually r>f stronger than math hde

Actually no. R>F equal to higher infinity in math

 

[AKUTO123]

Actually no. R>F equal to higher infinity in math

I meant hax processing, hax processing to physical dimensions may not handle r>f