The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Then why is it on his profile

?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

?

It’s the reasoning for his true form tier. Him percieving the world or smthn, someone tried to downgrade it but it got rejected I recall

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It’s the reasoning for his true form tier. Him percieving the world or smthn, someone tried to downgrade it but it got rejected I recall

That's accepted as R>F?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

That's accepted as R>F?

Ye

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Will Dnd's Luminous Being qualify for tier 0, or will he pretty much still be under high 1-A?

 

[Elyartaker]

Hello everyone
Hope everyone having a good day
can duality or dichotomy be argued to be Tier 0?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hello everyone
Hope everyone having a good day
can duality or dichotomy be argued to be Tier 0?

No, that beats the point.

 

[Everything12]

Under the new changes, I believe only his true form will qualify. His avatar will most likely be downgraded.

Personally! I’ve always been skeptical on the validity of the true spirit.

Can someone explain arceus’s r>f transcendence? I’m confused

There is no R>F involved

Arceus is the "God who transcends everything", whose realm is far beyond both the infinite space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time and the Distortion World, which lacks time and direction.

The true form of Arceus is the Heart/Original Spirit, an all-encompassing absolute existence who gave birth to the world, both the regular world and Giratina's, through perceiving it. Within it all the people and Pokemon were the same being, they were all the same within its consciousness all possessing the same heart. Even the concepts which formed creation were mixed within itself, before it emanated them into existence. It is the primordial Consciousness that is both a part of everything and outside everything, beyond time and space, and everything material, spiritual or nonexistent. It is only through it's physical manifestation, that itself is beyond both time and space and the reach of everything else in the world, that it can see and walk the world on the same level as it's inhabitants.

Edit: Though technically their right, it's Arceus' Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 2 that was the initial argument for 1-A, it's just the whole perceiving the world Reality-Fiction thing serves as good supporting evidence of the rating.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Sounds like the Heavenly Dao but in a less explicit way.

 

[Everything12]

Maybe, but it's also likely to have Buddhist inspiration, thousand arms ring thing and all that.

Edit: Also.

Personally! I’ve always been skeptical on the validity of the true spirit.

It is only through it's physical manifestation, that it can see and walk the world on the same level as it's inhabitants.

There is no room for scepticism here. It's straight from the horse's mouth, there is an avatar and a true form. Even included the Japanese so there is no argument over what it means by part, it means an avatar/alter ego and is a word that is usually used in reference to a god's ability to create avatars. Of particular note, it is used to refer to the Buddha's ability to appear in multiple forms to save people.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ultima is gone from this plane of existence. In his place, I will answer the questions you guys have. It’s the right thing to do.

 

[LazerDim8000]

What y’all think of these statements by morgana from p5 anime;

 

[Greatsage13th]

What y’all think of these statements by morgana from p5 anime;

1-A ish or at the very least subjective reality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

What y’all think of these statements by morgana from p5 anime;

Looks like from the context of the feat, maybe 2-A. From the perspective it’s being told it could be tier 1.

 

[Everything12]

What y’all think of these statements by morgana from p5 anime;

Subjective Reality. Without additional context this is lesser beings shaping the world based on their perception. Which goes against one of the three rules of true Reality-Fiction relationships. Though the whole Axiom bestowing this to humanity does negate that, but even still this is not enough for 1-A, there has to be a higher reality or being that is transcendentally more powerful and not just the world is not real because it can be shaped by perception.

 

[Da3ggman]

Ultima is gone from this plane of existence. In his place, I will answer the questions you guys have. It’s the right thing to do.

Bro's like my father.

 

[LazerDim8000]

Subjective Reality. Without additional context this is lesser beings shaping the world based on their perception. Which goes against one of the three rules of true Reality-Fiction relationships. Though the whole Axiom bestowing this to humanity does negate that, but even still this is not enough for 1-A, there has to be a higher reality or being that is transcendentally more powerful and not just the world is not real because it can be shaped by perception.

There’s also heaps of evidence that support R>F in SMT but In the P5, this world also includes mementos, which represents a shared mental realm shaped by society's distortions. Within this realm are countless archetypes, fundamental symbols that exist beyond time and space. It's something like entering a dimensionless space where these archetypes, similar to Plato's ideas, transcend usual understanding of reality.And as you said there’s also the fact that the great reason purposely granted humanity gods slayers/messiahs

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

SMT will have at least 1-A. Moving on to a more pressing issue concerns the High 1-A+ and what verse can be applicable for their tier.

 

[Da3ggman]

Would this change affect The Beyonder's scaling at all? Also, this is sort of unrelated, but where exactly does The Beyond scale to as far as place in Marvel?

I remember a good few years ago he was some hyper omnipotent God who was second only to The One Above All, but now I've heard he isn't even top 20. It's all so confusing to me lol.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Will Dnd's Luminous Being qualify for tier 0, or will he pretty much still be under high 1-A?

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

Well obviously Oneness is not the only one or not only in itself, so, what's the main requirement for Tier 0. Beyond attributes or Qualities/undifferentiated whole?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Would this change affect The Beyonder's scaling at all? Also, this is sort of unrelated, but where exactly does The Beyond scale to as far as place in Marvel?

Probably not as Marvel retain High 1-A. The Beyond scales above Eternity which contains the Superflow, Neutral Zone, and possibly the Far Shore. At least still four to five degrees above baseline. The Beyond is the remnant of the Second Cosmos as the Omega Council used it as the foundation of the coming Firmaments/Multiverses. Thus is still below the White Hot Room, House of Ideas, the Land, and Dominions.

I remember a good few years ago he was some hyper omnipotent God who was second only to The One Above All, but now I've heard he isn't even top 20. It's all so confusing to me lol.

Well, he’s still strong but his not the most powerful or second.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well obviously Oneness is not the only one or not only in itself, so, what's the main requirement for Tier 0. Beyond attributes or Qualities/undifferentiated whole?

Divine Simplicity is the easiest explanation. That the divine is not of properties nor of any conformant of compositions about its physical or metaphysical nature.

Monad as Ultima describes it is the single origin point, an ineffable point beyond anything as the one and only true substance like the idea of Brahman in Hinduism.

 

[Reiner04]

Divine Simplicity is the easiest explanation. That the divine is not of properties nor of any conformant of compositions about its physical or metaphysical nature.

So smth like self explained entity dependent on itself and none other.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So smth like self explained entity dependent on itself and none other.

It’s independent of all properties and hierarchy while it, itself, is its own self sustaining idea. A Monad property is indivisible only by being itself. Kind of like how God did not make himself and is himself; Omnilock and Omnipotent.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

From my approximate estimation. Ultima will return about 8 hours from now.

Edit: Don’t quote me, if I’m wrong.

 

[KingNanaya]

You're wrong

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You're wrong

Wrong is subjective and it hasn’t been 8 hours from now.

 

[KingNanaya]

Wrong is subjective and it hasn’t been 8 hours from now.

I'm just making a prediction

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Edit: Don’t quote me, if I’m wrong.

You're wrong

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Let’s focus on the topic people.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

From my approximate estimation. Ultima will return about 8 hours from now.

Edit: Don’t quote me, if I’m wrong.

Where would arceus scale

 

[Reiner04]

Edit: Don’t quote me, if I’m wrong.

You're wrong.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Where would arceus scale

At least 1-A.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Thus is still below the White Hot Room, House of Ideas, the Land, and Dominions.

IDK, the house of ideas has big anti-feats.

There is no room for scepticism here. It's straight from the horse's mouth, there is an avatar and a true form. Even included the Japanese so there is no argument over what it means by part, it means an avatar/alter ego and is a word that is usually used in reference to a god's ability to create avatars. Of particular note, it is used to refer to the Buddha's ability to appear in multiple forms to save people.

What I am skeptical of is the true spirit's relationship with the world (it all exists in his mind/heart). All the information comes from a single dialogue instance of a random unamed npc (a dialogue that is very confusing vague ex. the bit about pokemon marrying humans). We don't see such relationship mentioned anywhere else in the franchise.

There’s also heaps of evidence that support R>F in SMT but In the P5, this world also includes mementos, which represents a shared mental realm shaped by society's distortions. Within this realm are countless archetypes, fundamental symbols that exist beyond time and space. It's something like entering a dimensionless space where these archetypes, similar to Plato's ideas, transcend usual understanding of reality.And as you said there’s also the fact that the great reason purposely granted humanity gods slayers/messiahs

In both SMT 5 and Persona 5, they speak on ideas of human world's perception shaping demons and the demon world/metaverse. To me, this always strike against the demons being platonic concepts, because if they are shaped by human perception then they aren't really independent. Not to mention in SMT 5, you can destroy the throne and demon world, and the human world will remain.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

IDK, the house of ideas has big anti-feats.

Sure but its position is pretty clear.

 

[Lasting900]

In SMT, when Seraph reaches Nirvana and realizes the world (the axiom) is me and I’m the world?

Is this not monadic (enlightenment?)

Their original forms, Serph and Sera, are reincarnated. But Seraph, escapes the cycle.

(Would this not at least be 1 tier above 1-A?)

High 1-A?

IDK, the house of ideas has big anti-feats.


What I am skeptical of is the true spirit's relationship with the world (it all exists in his mind/heart). All the information comes from a single dialogue instance of a random unamed npc (a dialogue that is very confusing vague ex. the bit about pokemon marrying humans). We don't see such relationship mentioned anywhere else in the franchise.



In both SMT 5 and Persona 5, they speak on ideas of human world's perception shaping demons and the demon world/metaverse. To me, this always strike against the demons being platonic concepts, because if they are shaped by human perception then they aren't really independent. Not to mention in SMT 5, you can destroy the throne and demon world, and the human world will remain.

And similarly here, the protagonist you played as in SMT 5 (in this ending) exists separate from the new him he created in a world for humans, without demons?

I understand SMT has many common threads between games.

 

[Scottycj256]

Edit: Don’t quote me, if I’m wrong.

You're wrong

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ha! Hilarious chat. Anyways, SMT, I think can get High 1-A but 0 is not really an option.

 

[Agnaa]

Edit: Though technically their right, it's Arceus' Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 2 that was the initial argument for 1-A, it's just the whole perceiving the world Reality-Fiction thing serves as good supporting evidence of the rating.

Do note that BDE Type 2 alone now would only reach Low 1-A.