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The Boxer Problems

I don't see why I have to stop anything. I summarized my points, Vzearr responded, and I feel it's within my right to do so as well so long as I remain civil. There's no rule forcing me to wait for staff members to argue for me.
Yes, but the back and forth could be harder for staff to evaluate, i just took a precaution, but if you want to continue back and forth with him, of course i will not stop you and of course i have no right to stop you, but the thread could just keep getting harder for staff to evaluate and discourage them from doing so, and it gonna reach nowhere. So please
 
Aight. Your help is appreciated.
No problem, i just got too used with thread where thing got heated and despite both sides summarised their arguments, they still keep arguing back and forth thus no staff want to evaluate, thread got nowhere and people lost energy and interest, verse is stagnated due to that
 
Yeah disagree with this entire thing. If you want to downgrade something, talk to the primary supporter of the verse first, for the love of hades.
 
What's this about someone's punches normally making someone's head blow up? Is that literal?
If they have the strength or capability to do so, are other characters on that level?
As I'm sure is already known, that info may be relevant to if there's durability negation.

Tentatively, what I've read from Azontr so far seems reasonable, but I don't know this verse entirely well.
 
What's this about someone's punches normally making someone's head blow up? Is that literal?
If they have the strength or capability to do so, are other characters on that level?
It was meant to be a comparison to the two types of punches that are shown and how the author (JH) portrays them. When Yu is punching with pure power, there is a specific way his opponents are drawn hit. When his punches pierce, there's also a specific way. The statement was meant to support the idea that it wasn't just pure attack potency and instead the limited durability negation I've positioned it as.
 
For greater duraneg, does anyone got a scan for it? Like what's "greater"? Why?
 
For greater duraneg, does anyone got a scan for it? Like what's "greater"? Why?
Because I assumed inherently that being able to hit organs was a greater form of dura neg than what is listed in the first key, and didn't want to just repeat limited dura neg, but i also didn't want to say "greater limited durability negation" because that sounds silly.
 
Because I assumed inherently that being able to hit organs was a greater form of dura neg than what is listed in the first key, and didn't want to just repeat limited dura neg, but i also didn't want to say "greater limited durability negation" because that sounds silly.
He can hit organs? Just post that instead and skip all this shockwave back and forth.
 
He can hit organs? Just post that instead and skip all this shockwave back and forth.
Yeah, the shockwave stuff is bs imo, but if he can hit organs, I have nothing to disagree about.
 
That's for a separate key. We're discussing what is listed in the first ability tabber, not the second one.
 
Like, let me break it down like this. Yu has limited dura neg first tabber. Second tabber, he has a better version of it that lets him hit organs. I list it as Greater because I don't want to say "limited" again or say "greater limited" because that's silly. Does that clear the confusion?
 
Limited Durability Negation - Durability negation doesn't count as being stronger than your opponent and getting through their guard, that's just strength and doesn't target vital organs or anything.​
You can have duraneg that only works on weaker foes. You can also have limited duraneg that works on weaker foes.
Might be useless given you're stronger but ig it would just make them super dead instead of normal dead.

This just kind of depends on context, at direct face value, that is a "shockwave". Maybe not in the sense of like a bomb overpressure or what not, a visible transfer of force/energy through a medium as it exits out the other side. Or maybe it is a transonic one, if I was the artist that would be kind of how I'd convey it if that was my intent?

Now, I wouldn't give duraneg for that, I'm not about to give it to this
MADEDHt.gif

or if we want a case where it absolutely is a shockwave but in a different form, in some cases it could just be the dude or something was pushed hard enough that it, well, ya know. Air and stuff gets pushed apart with high force and speed, so, well, a shockwave.
tp3D9g5.gif

but I don't actually give a shit in this case, could be, could not be, would need to see the raws to see what's actually said, it could easily confirm that it's duraneg-flavored, or not. i cant read korean tho in the slightest so I wouldnt be able to help there.

But for the shockwave stuff, that IS a shockwave, at face value anyway, the question is more why it's happening and how it interacted with the person in question, or if it's meant to be literal even, but the latter would just be guesswork on our part and I'm not one for guessing authorial intent without damn good evidence or precedence for them, the author drew it so we have to take it as something that's physically there unless evidence suggests otherwise, but how we take it, can very much vary. And I don't know enough about this verse or the context to comment on that without people link chapters or scans.
And I'm busy so I'm not gonna read it.

  1. This is not analytical prediction, this is just learning and adapting.
Information Analysis. Still an ability.
Though making use of that analysis to accurately predict your foe's actions by wiki standards does qualify for analprediction.
Not very good analytical prediction mind you, but I'd say it barely scraps by, that's assuming his predictions in what people do ends up consistently being accurate tho.
If he still gets shit wrong frequently and it's on his end, not the foe being Raiden or Batman to where lmao, then yeah I'd say that's just "normal" prediction and wouldn't exactly count towards an "ability".
Needs to at least be superhuman or consistent enough to be a thing. I don't know if it is because I haven't been shown scans for it, so take this as a "if it is legit, it's fine, if it isn't, it isn't imo".
  1. Greater Durability Negation - Can't be greater if it's not there in the first place.
There's no scan so idk what's "supposed to be greater". In fact, depending on what that scan might be, it could confirm, or deny, the above. Like if the verse establishes duraneg-like shockwaves as a thing already and other people can do it, that makes the threshold for scrutiny here way lower.

EDIT but edit before I post: Checked profile, this dude has very blatantly explicit duraneg slop via shockwaves and vibrations.

Honestly? I don't like how this was removed from the OP, this is super important context.
We have a character who in his second key is stated to be able to use shockwaves that pass by stuff to attack internally.
And it looks like THIS
aslW6KN.jpeg


And then we have the same character doing that exact same thing, drawn the exact same way, in a weaker key, but it's just a smaller scale? This is the exact same type of "shockwave" drawn in the baby key, just larger because he's way better at it now?


Yeah no this is legit, what are we doing? It's just the same thing that's explained directly and even shown directly how it can damage inside stuff, hell they even technically say he's been doing it his whole life it's just gotten better over time, with there being cross sections of the internals with huge gaping holes.
1. No real evidence in how many punches this was done. On screen it was 3, but we know he was punching beforehand.
If they show us 3, and if what they say is true with 3sfx. It's probably just 3. Less assumptions the better, both ways.
2. This look's more like a cone, it's much deeper in the middle, like a cone, I'd only accept forearm and- wait, it should be forearm and hand length minus the fingers.​
Tbh, it looks like some ****** up irregular pyramid with a smoothed top given the edges, you could calc it. if it was me I'd just get the actual area and spend way to long calculating the exact volume. Most people won't do that so whatever shape it's close enough to, should be fine as an approximate.

Though, he is in fact closer to the PoV.
This is technically a good thing? It means the actual crater is a lil bit lowended.

I don't think I need to explain but if you scale a skyscraper from 100m away to a coke can 1cm next to you, you're gonna get like a 50cm tall skyscraper even if it's actually 100m.
Basic depth and foreshortening and all that. The impact is a bit further back so it looks smaller than it actually is and if you scale something in front of it, it inflates it by a lil bit. In this case it wouldn't be much, but the crater prob like 5% bigger than it was scaled so...
I don't care, gets the certified "it's not just good, it's good enough" sticker and in a way that's not inflation but slight deflation, it's fine.

Depth is kind of omega inflated tho, it isn't THAT deep. 44cm is kind of huge, you can even kind of see how concaved it is due the top-down tilted angle, it's kind of deep, but it ain't THAT deep. Tbh, I'm not whipping out the trigonomics and ******* line scalings for this someone else can but it's more like, his hand's depth in, well, depth. So it's a lil of both? Inflated depth but also a bit lowballed everywhere else?
J interrupts Yu from punching Fabrizio
Wow, it's been 2 years since I saw this calc, and it's been there for 2 years despite being wrong.

1. There is no evidence J moves all of that distance within the timeframe of Yu punching, he could have been much much closer, this calc accepts a highball.​
Idk wtf is going on there.
Like I get the idea, bro starts far away, manages to move big distance in time dude's fist moving mid-punch.
My concern is, do we know he began moving after the punch, or was the punch thrown while he was moving? The scans in the feat link don't show when the punch is thrown.

If, hypothetically, the prior page shows the dude throwing his punch, and then all that happens, yeah the feat is feat is "close enough", could be done better but eh.
If, we don't though, feat is unquantifiable, he could've started moving before the punch was thrown so you can't say he made it all the way there in so-and-so a time. you just can't, it's not the same feat anymore, that isn't what happened, or at least, can't prove it.

Hmm, the dude does say "finish him" and then jesus over there begins moving, so it's probably about the same time? But the other dude would still need to reel back his punch in response to being told to "do it"? So that should prob be accounted for at least and then maybe it'd be fine? At that point I'd shrug and say best we could do with what we got while factoring is the intent of "he move big while dude punch" which does seem to be what's trying to be conveyed, so do that ig?

Also you wanna do pytha-, oh nvm.

My opinion is it's a shockwave but how we treat it, can vary from absolutely nothing to absolutely something idk need more context. Which I ended up getting, it's just his explicit limited duraneg on a baby scale, keep it just explain it better so this doesn't happen again.
It's 100% infoanal at least, so if they don't have that listed, that needs to be added, it could be analprecog too depending on the consistency and accuracy of it though so need more context.
Calc 1 is both inflated via depth but deflated via everything else.
Calc 2, eh **** it idk factor in the pull back of the punch and I personally would be fine with it given the intent of the scene and what we have to work with.
elden-ring-albinauric.gif

Now fight to the death because I didn't take an explicit side and think it's lil of both.
 
Though making use of that analysis to accurately predict your foe's actions by wiki standards does qualify for analprediction.
Not very good analytical prediction mind you, but I'd say it barely scraps by, that's assuming his predictions in what people do ends up consistently being accurate tho.
For the record, that's a shitty blurry scans from a thread I made 3 years ago. The better portrayals/explanation is here, and Here. There are more scans showing him reading stuff like heart beat and blood flow, but basically he gathers data and used it to read shit.
 
For the record, that's a shitty blurry scans from a thread I made 3 years ago. The better portrayals/explanation is here, and Here. There are more scans showing him reading stuff like heart beat and blood flow, but basically he gathers data and used it to read shit.
Those scans themselves lean more into the info anal category and the 3rd scan is vague, but I'll take your word for it given they say after he's analyzed, nobody can even touch him and nothing works, just flesh it out some more.
 
It's whatever, I am just showing the full context since all the OP provides is old blurry scans i clipped on webtoon. I figured it was analytical prediction based on the same reasoning, and Siha's (blue haired guy) entire thing is about life being predictable and boring, so
 
I swear, A Yu upgrade, and a Yu downgrade just after a match up with him, and the people that argued for his win and lose, matches it.... Hmmm.

Either way, I will read this and comment after I am done with my coffee.
 
Idk about all the math stuff idrc about that. For all I know Yu is 10-C sub-human speed
 
Idk about all the math stuff idrc about that. For all I know Yu is 10-C sub-human speed
it's true so downgrade him so i can make yu vs danny the dog
 
Why is it inflated? Back in the day in the og calc I used the part of his arm that was covered in shadow (although it was somehow bigger)
Because it isn't that deep? It's not 44cm deep, you can tell based on the sloping of it and even the tilted angle. It might look like his arm is mostly in there but that's just a foreshortening and depth thing that's easy to mistake at a glance due to the 2D aspect of the art ive spent months trying toc alc a ******* crater feat of my own trying to get depth to account for the 2D view, it's a pain in the ass so I get it.
Because the depth is inflated, the volume gets higher, leads to a large end result.

But inversely, the scale of reference is in front of it, not parallel, so the crater is also a bit larger than obtained and is being scaled in other categories.

So the calc has a bit of both going on, some inflation, and some downplay. Obviously both look like simple rough accidents, things easy to miss or handwave if you aren't being anal about it.
 
So the calc has a bit of both going on, some inflation, and some downplay. Obviously both look like simple rough accidents, things easy to miss or handwave if you aren't being anal about it.
I might get onto it. I'll have to figure out the depth. If there ain't a way I'll just re-calc the forearm shadow I'll probably get lower results.
 
I might get onto it. I'll have to figure out the depth. If there ain't a way I'll just re-calc the forearm shadow I'll probably get lower results.
You'll get lower yeah, but if you wanna be ultra precise, you can account for the foreshortening and distance the frame of ref (bro) is from the impact size and like get the "true" values which would help mitigate the lower depth. So it isn't actually to bad in the long run.
 
Looking at it again, there's a rock right beside Viktor (on the left) that is part of the destroyed area that is easily twice as wide as his wrist and it is just on the edge of the hole. I don't think 44cm is such big of a stretch. I'll try later today but I don't think this is a matter of the crater being objectively wrong but rather the artist failing to capture the full depth via lineart properly whilst clearly implying it with shadows
You'll get lower yeah, but if you wanna be ultra precise, you can account for the foreshortening and distance the frame of ref (bro) is from the impact size and like get the "true" values which would help mitigate the lower depth. So it isn't actually to bad in the long run.
 
Actually, an easy way would be to figure out the distance between like, his foot and the wall, and then figure out the relation in space between his foot and shoulder (he's leaning obviously so theyre not on the same plane and his shoulder higher up so ya might gotta do some angsizing and trigonomics and shit but still it's possible to get).
And then just basic math because we know his fist is in contact with depth of impact zone, and if we know how far the not crater part of the wall is from his shoulder, well basic subtraction.

The other ways involve a bunch of shit I doubt anyway would want to do so that might be less difficult for whoever.
 
Disagree with the thread. The duraneg stuff has already been settled by Chariot, nevermind the fact that we have an explicit feat where Yu punches a huge sandbag, with it not tearing or whatever, but after people tore it, it showed the sand being weird inside, and the other statements of him explicitly bypassing durability (was mentioned that he could always do this, but see Aaron vs Yu. Yu wouldn't have been able to damage Aaron at all due to the durability difference, and it was only due to the duraneg he was able to attack. Hell, that's why Aaron's heart got screwed).

Additionally, for analytical prediction, we already have Siha Lee, who can read your heartbeat, bloodflow, etc... and take them as data to straight up dodge everything, and it was shown it didn't work against Ryu (who got fodderized by Yu), and hell, Siha Lee very directly goes "**** no" when it comes to Yu, saying he doesn't have a chance against him.
 
I already said my piece about the ability stuff in the past thread so I don't really wanna get into that cuz it'll just make the thread longer.

I partially agree with the first calculation being inflated because of the depth. About the second one, i really don't understand how that one got accepted in the first place. I understand that the intent of the feat is that J moves more distance than Yu to stop his punch, but it can't really be proven that the intent of the feat is moving J that much. Ever since that feat got bumped to Hypersonic, I always thought using the distance between the ropes of the ring to Yu was a much safer lowball to use, considering that the commentators and the spectators who should be watching the ring didn't notice J till he stopped the punch.
 
I already said my piece about the ability stuff in the past thread so I don't really wanna get into that cuz it'll just make the thread longer.

I partially agree with the first calculation being inflated because of the depth. About the second one, i really don't understand how that one got accepted in the first place. I understand that the intent of the feat is that J moves more distance than Yu to stop his punch, but it can't really be proven that the intent of the feat is moving J that much. Ever since that feat got bumped to Hypersonic, I always thought using the distance between the ropes of the ring to Yu was a much safer lowball to use, considering that the commentators and the spectators who should be watching the ring didn't notice J till he stopped the punch.
The latter would be because bro tells the dude to "finish him", then the next panel is him taking off dashing so he started moving at approximately the same time based on panel order.
Which, is nowhere near the ring. Not even remotely. The distance would be wherever he was at the start, based on the shots, it would be at least off panel in the overhead given nobody us there ducking and prepping to break into a sprint we can see.

Would make actively make less sense to do it that way then the current calc.
But being told to throw the punch still means he has to pull his arm back so that needs to be factored in.
Would basically double the timeframe give or take, so yeah the feat needs a bit of a hit, but not because you only count the ring there's absolutely zero reason to because we KNOW he wasnt next to the ring.

And fyi we dont lowball, we also dont high ball, we "do whatever is most accurate".
 
The latter would be because bro tells the dude to "finish him", then the next panel is him taking off dashing so he started moving at approximately the same time based on panel order.
Which, is nowhere near the ring. Not even remotely. The distance would be wherever he was at the start, based on the shots, it would be at least off panel in the overhead given nobody us there ducking and prepping to break into a sprint we can see.

Would make actively make less sense to do it that way then the current calc.
Checking the calc again, you're kinda right. The distance between the ropes of the wing and Yu is too much of a lowball, but the distance between entrance of the arena to Yu is an unnecesary highball imo. Especially when we don't even see where he starts to move. The distance between the crowd and Yu could be a more usable distance maybe.
But being told to throw the punch still means he has to pull his arm back so that needs to be factored in.
Would basically double the timeframe give or take, so yeah the feat needs a bit of a hit,
True i guess.
And fyi we dont lowball, we also dont high ball, we "do whatever is most accurate".
I mean, when both a lowball and a highball end both make sense, CGMs mostly tend to choose the lower end. That's not really related to the calc we have at hand though, since I don't think the current calc makes sense.
 
Checking the calc again, you're kinda right. The distance between the ropes of the wing and Yu is too much of a lowball, but the distance between entrance of the arena to Yu is an unnecesary highball imo.
It isnt.

We know he wasnt where the crowd was. We know he wasnt right next to the ring.
He is further back away from people, we know this because we can literally see around him, both behind him, and beside him. It's a dark empty hallway. And we also see next to the ring and crowd, he isnt there.
Especially when we don't even see where he starts to move.
We do actually. Or rather, we don't know where exactly he's coming from, but we DO know it's not on panel as there was nobody around him when he bends down to get into position, and he only moves from there and once he makes the dash.

Which is to say, the current distance? Is actually a minimum.
The distance between the crowd and Yu could be a more usable distance maybe.

True i guess.
That's even worse, how is this dude bending down into a sprint in the middle of people packed together? While having nobody behind or next to him to such a degree there's nobody behind or to the left as far as we can see, and based on pov distance at least a few meters to the right?
I mean, when both a lowball and a highball end both make sense, CGMs mostly tend to choose the lower end. That's not really related to the calc we have at hand though, since I don't think the current calc makes sense.
Youre thinking about this completely wrong. There is no low or highball, it's whatever is most accurate based on what we know and can do.

The only thing that needs to change, is add in the draw back of the punch, so the full arm motion not just the launch.
 
It isnt.

We know he wasnt where the crowd was. We know he wasnt right next to the ring.
He is further back away from people, we know this because we can literally see around him, both behind him, and beside him. It's a dark empty hallway. And we also see next to the ring and crowd, he isnt there.

We do actually. Or rather, we don't know where exactly he's coming from, but we DO know it's not on panel as there was nobody around him when he bends down to get into position, and he only moves from there and once he makes the dash.

Which is to say, the current distance? Is actually a minimum.

That's even worse, how is this dude bending down into a sprint in the middle of people packed together? While having nobody behind or next to him to such a degree there's nobody behind or to the left as far as we can see, and based on pov distance at least a few meters to the right?
I didn't see the panel you're referencing to so I apologize if i came off as ignorant here.
Youre thinking about this completely wrong. There is no low or highball, it's whatever is most accurate based on what we know and can do.
Considering that a former CGM is saying this, I'm gonna have to agree ig. My opinion was just based on observation.
The only thing that needs to change, is add in the draw back of the punch, so the full arm motion not just the launch.
How do we find that though? Simply doubling the timeframe wouldn't really work since boxers don't draw back punches as fast as the punch itself.
 
How do we find that though? Simply doubling the timeframe wouldn't really work since boxers don't draw back punches as fast as the punch itself.
Idk just use the highest record time for that, slap it on the timeframe, bam. Should only take a quick google. Or maybe find the highest full punch motion instead.
All 3 of these should be available readily.
 
Idk just use the highest record time for that, slap it on the timeframe, bam. Should only take a quick google. Or maybe find the highest full punch motion instead.
All 3 of these should be available readily.
Mr. Chatgpt says that the draw back time for a punch for elite level boxers is about 0.05-0.1 seconds, but can't give clear sources for it. Highest full motion of a punch is pretty well documented though. It's between either 50 and 100 ms, or 60-100 ms. If we take averages for both, that's either 75 or 80 ms for a full punch motion.
 
J interrupts Yu from punching Fabrizio
Wow, it's been 2 years since I saw this calc, and it's been there for 2 years despite being wrong.

1. There is no evidence J moves all of that distance within the timeframe of Yu punching, he could have been much much closer, this calc accepts a highball.

That's it, that's the debunk. Plain and simple.​
There are two reasons why J moved at least that distance after Yu punched, and why he was at least outside the doors.

1) Thousands of people wouldn't have missed the most respected boxer of all time entering, someone who has a shining aura all around him (either literal or to symbolise his charismatic aura), yet the entire audience, presenters, and trainers are portrayed as just realizing he was there when he was inside the ring, after he blocked the punch. To support this, he is mentioned to have "jumped in at the last moment", so no, he wasn't walking near the audience during the five seconds before Yu jumped.

2) J has some sort of symbolism with Jesus, and in this specific scene, the miracle (him), has been asked as Yu dashes. It would be weird to have the miracle appear before you even ask for it, when the whole scene is about asking God for forgiveness and to be saved this one time.
The only thing that needs to change, is add in the draw back of the punch, so the full arm motion not just the launch.
The thing is, here Yu is using a specific technique he has, which is an FTE dash who blitzed characters with slow-motion hax, and no, he doesn't draw back the punch, he raises it as he moves forward.
 
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