The Blue Bomber VS The Blue Blur

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Sonic's Insta-Shield isn't durability negation. He just slashes people without having to touch them. Also, this is the only way he can get by the shields, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just spam it. Even then, Mega Man basically has a more potent version of the Insta-Shield with Centaur Flash. With Centaur Flash, Mega Man stops time, and by warping the space around him, he's able to attack people without having to touch them. This attack also bypasses defenses and would be effective against Sonic. Also, both are considerably higher than the feats they have (29 yottatons and 7.5 yottatons). And even if we give Sonic the benefit of the doubt and give him higher AP, the gap is negligible and wouldn't be enough for Sonic to one-shot or just over-power him.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Unoriginal Also, Super Sonic doesn't have Invulnerability because there's actually a revision that's going to take place to add it. That's why people are bringing it up.

It's kinda a non-factor as of now tho.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

I... Don't know who you're referring to. If you were talking to me, I didn't talk about half of the things you said.

Responding to Darksspine.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Unoriginal Memes Eggman draining Super Sonic is power absorption, which Mega Man doesn't have. So no, he's not knocking Sonic out of his super form.

Mega Man can stop time and warp space? Cool, Sonic can do the same with Chaos Control.

"Sonic doesn't have durability negation."

With time hax and some wisps? He certainly does. He can also transmute Mega Man into rings.

"You were probably just too lazy to read them."

 

[Truth_Bullets]

It wasn't just Knuckles. In Unleashed, Eggman lays a trap for Super Sonic and forces him out of the transformation. I'm talking about how Invulnerabilty isn't listed in Sonic's super form key, but rather in base via the Invincibility Monitor. Sonic's invulnerability needs evidence of it being able to survive AZ attacks, or you're just assuming things at that point. And Mega Man still has the Black Hole Bomb, Centaur Flash, and Flash Stopper, all of which should be effective against Sonic. Sonic doesn't have durability negation, and certainly not through Insta-Shield. He just attacks with his range. Mega Man's AR works on anything the shield touches, so yes it can block/reflect physical attacks.

"It wasn't just Knuckles. In Unleashed, Eggman lays a trap for Super Sonic and forces him out of the transformation."

It literally extracted the Chaos Emeralds and their energies, which has nothing to do with Invulnerability. You bringing up them being forced out of him by Knuckles was the only thing applicable to "limited invulnerability", which was PIS as stated verbatim.

"Sonic's invulnerability needs evidence of it being able to survive AZ attacks, or you're just assuming things at that point."

Again, no, you don't. You haven't refuted how you need power nullification to counter invulnerability. Durability negation can't affect invulnerability because it's a power serving as a barrier for durability. You're the only one assuming things. This is how basic invulnerability works. "And Mega Man still has the Black Hole Bomb, Centaur Flash, and Flash Stopper, all of which should be effective against Sonic."

Of course, what do you think "Mega Man can keep Sonic at bay" means? They can all affect him, just not provide a win condition for Mega Man.

"Sonic doesn't have durability negation, and certainly not through Insta-Shield. He just attacks with his range."

No, enemies with shields can be damaged by him when he uses Insta-Shield. Your just further proving my point that you don't know what you're talking about.

"Mega Man's AR works on anything the shield touches, so yes it can block/reflect physical attacks."

Regardless, the shield is bypassed by Insta-Shield.

 

[Truth_Bullets]

Also, I have brought up win cons for Mega Man. You were probably just too lazy to read them.
Mega Man is vastly above 29 yottatons because he is capable of defeating the robot masters in MM11, who have been stated to be stronger than any of the robot masters in the original 10 games, which includes the robot masters that made the 29 yottaton feat. Mega Man is also capable of defeating these enemies without the Power Gear, and with the PG his power increases immensely.

"Also, I have brought up win cons for Mega Man. You were probably just too lazy to read them."

And you said I was assumptious. Get over yourself.

"Mega Man is vastly above 29 yottatons because he is capable of defeating the robot masters in MM11, who have been stated to be stronger than any of the robot masters in the original 10 games, which includes the robot masters that made the 29 yottaton feat."

Thank you for providing this statement.

"Mega Man is also capable of defeating these enemies without the Power Gear, and with the PG his power increases immensely."

Okay?

Still, regardless of the AP or durability or shields or whatever maguffins Mega Man has, Sonic simply uses Invulnerability to tank Mega's attacks, get up close once he runs out of ammo, and one-shot with durability negation.

 

[Truth_Bullets]

Sonic's Insta-Shield isn't durability negation. He just slashes people without having to touch them. Also, this is the only way he can get by the shields, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just spam it. Even then, Mega Man basically has a more potent version of the Insta-Shield with Centaur Flash. With Centaur Flash, Mega Man stops time, and by warping the space around him, he's able to attack people without having to touch them. This attack also bypasses defenses and would be effective against Sonic. Also, both are considerably higher than the feats they have (29 yottatons and 7.5 yottatons). And even if we give Sonic the benefit of the doubt and give him higher AP, the gap is negligible and wouldn't be enough for Sonic to one-shot or just over-power him.

"Sonic's Insta-Shield isn't durability negation. He just slashes people without having to touch them. Also, this is the only way he can get by the shields, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just spam it."

Again, it is durability negation as it bypasses shields. And considering how in the old Sonic games, Super Sonic can keep using Insta-Shield in combat, I'd say he'd still use it. He only needs to use it once, not spam it. Bypass the shields and Mega's durability and presto, Sonic claps.

"Even then, Mega Man basically has a more potent version of the Insta-Shield with Centaur Flash. With Centaur Flash, Mega Man stops time, and by warping the space around him, he's able to attack people without having to touch them. This attack also bypasses defenses and would be effective against Sonic."

Doesn't matter bc Invulnerability.

"And even if we give Sonic the benefit of the doubt and give him higher AP, the gap is negligible and wouldn't be enough for Sonic to one-shot or just over-power him."

He one-shots via durability negation.

 

[Beamgc]

ShadowWarrior1999


Megaman have resistence against trasmutation and sonic never use chaos control while in super form. Also with grab buster megaman could knock out sonic from his super form.

"

• Energy Absorption: The user can absorb energy from their surroundings and/or from others, draining them of their power and becoming stronger in the process. High-level applications of this ability can completely nullify energy attacks by absorbing them, drain opponents of all of their strength in moments, and drain energy from their surroundings on a massive scale. The specifics of what energy the user can absorb vary from individual to individual."

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"Sonic has never used Chaos Control in his super form."


Also no, grab buster just allows him to steal energy to heal himself. That's not draining someone's powers so no, saying it would knock Sonic out of his super form is wank.

Alright, I just saw Mega Man resists transmutation, I'll give you that.

 

[Beamgc]

Power Absorption and Energy Absorption is basically the same thing, except that one you drain the energy from the target and the other besides you do that you get the same powers.

"Also no, grab buster just allow him to steal energy to heal himself."

And? It is still draining energy and it was that reason that you gave sonic to lose its super form.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

They're not the same thing. Power absorption allows you to absorb someone's powers to take them away, energy absorption is just that, absorbing energy. Mega Man has never drained someone's powers, also you do know that same machine Eggman used against Super Sonic specifically drains the negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds which shuts off their power, right?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, a lot of time has passed since I commented, so there's a lot I gotta address, bit by bit. I won't go into a lot of detail to save my time time and the space of the thread.

>Resisting black holes

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sonic got f*cked by that black hole that he couldn't outrun. Out of all the things I'm going to address, this is the one that I'm least sure of. I can be wrong here.

>Violet Void swallowing Black Hole Bomb

Massive no. That's not how black holes work, a bit of an NLF, and BHB is stronger.

>Durability negation through insta-shield

Lolno. It doesn't do anything Sonic's normal spin attack doesn't do. It increases range a bit. That's it.

>Invulnerability

Funny how you bring this up when one of the few beings that take off health from Super Sonic is Dark Gaia, a certain being with a 7 yottaton feat. And it's not like Mega Man scales above that or anything.

>Time limit

This is going to be controversial. The lack of a time limit is bs for Sonic. Everyone likes to cling onto that 3 days thing from Sonic Advance when god knows what happened during those three days. Yet every. Single. Appearance. From the dude has the limit, barring the ones that give him a health bar, and his bio supports it. Heck, even in Advance during the final boss he has a limit. It's honestly cherrypicking to the highest degree. It's not game mechanics. It's just not as good as you say it is.

 

[Beamgc]

But the only reason Sonic manages to keep his super form is because he still has energy left. When his energy ends he simply goes back to normal and even his wiki point it:

"Super Sonic can only stay transformed for a short time without sustainment from Ring Energy, as Super State consumes tremendous amounts of energy. [2] [14] Extensive usage will also put him at risk of disappearing entirely. [22]"

by this, if megaman drained sonic's energy he would be at least anticipating the end of his transformation

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal

The characters also resist the pull of black holes in Sonic Riders and Shuffle. Plus Sonic didn't get spaghettified by it.

When two black holes merge they create a bigger black hole.

The time limit is gameplay mechanics, unless you want to say Mario is 9-B because he can die from touching a Goomba in gameplay.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Beamgc Yeah rings which again, is gameplay mechanics.

 

[Beamgc]

@Cal
The time limit is gameplay mechanics, unless you want to say Mario is 9-B because he can die from touching a Goomba in gameplay.

Where is the proof that this is gameplay mechanics? By this logic I could say that mm unlimited ammo is also gameplay mechanics. The mario thing is fallacy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can respect the spaghettification argument.

Bigger black hole kills Sonic, even as Violet Void.

My friend. False equivalency. Major false equivalency. You used an example of something that happens in almost every video game (not to mention contradicted not only by higher feats, but any of the RPG games as well) as opposed to a canon weakness (as shown in the Sonic Channel bio). Getting touched by a mook enemy =======/////====== a time limit in games.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Beamgc The fact that in cutscenes Sonic doesn't worry about rings nor are they mentioned? The fact that there are some games where Super Sonic doesn't have a ring count? Yeah, the Sonic wiki brings it up because it's part of the gameplay.

@Cal If that's your response then why couldn't someone argue that those higher feats Mario has are simply outliers? Also, a vague "consumes energy" hardly means anything.

 

[Beamgc]

@Beamgc The fact that in cutscenes Sonic doesn't worry about rings nor are they mentioned? The fact that there are some games where Super Sonic doesn't have a ring count? Yeah, the Sonic wiki brings it up because it's part of the gameplay.

This does not prove that superform is unlimited, only that rings are gameplay mechanics. And also, it is not said that Shadow almost died in SA2 because he ran out of energy?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, you right. Also Sonic is equal to badniks, Link is equal to moblins, Kirby is equal to apples, Cloud is equal to goblins, Mega Man is equal to mets, etc.

Again, false equivalency. There's one game where he doesn't have the ring limit, and that's in a specific version of Unleashed, where he had other limits imposed, like the Life Gauge and not being invincible. Brotherhood as well but that game's not canon. Other than those two (Fighers, SS never canonically appears), the ring limit is everpresent.

 

[ShakeResounding]

>Invulnerability

Funny how you bring this up when one of the few beings that take off health from Super Sonic is Dark Gaia, a certain being with a 7 yottaton feat. And it's not like Mega Man scales above that or anything.

The one time Super Sonic has a health bar is against Dark Gaia in the Xbox 360/Playstation 3 versions. The lower versions and the Wii? Nope. Alongside every other showing of Super Sonic aside from that one time, Super Sonic has only ever been pushed back by attacks.

Don't say we're cherrypicking when you bring this up. No hostility intended.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Nobody's saying the super form lasts forever dude. What I am saying is that the time limit based on rings is invalid, and it's definitely not short enough to be a combat applicable weakness when it can be sustained for days.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Quoting myself:

"Everyone likes to cling onto that 3 days thing from Sonic Advance when god knows what happened during those three days. Yet every. Single. Appearance. From the dude has the limit, barring the ones that give him a health bar, and his bio supports it. Heck, even in Advance during the final boss he has a limit."

@Shake. None taken.

 

[Beamgc]

It will be a weakness if mega steal his energy. Also, it depends on the amount of energy he uses in a fight, If he uses time manipulation and other things it is more likely to end sooner. And shadow super form did not last several days on SA2.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Beam To be fair, that was Shadow's first time using the Super Form. That's why he almost died and Sonic was just fine.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal What is shown in-game > a character bio with a vague description.

@Beamgc No it won't because that's wank. Mega Man has never absorbed powers. Also don't use Shadow in SA2 as an example, it was heavily implied at the time that he was struggling to maintain it due to his inexperience of being in a super form as Sonic had no problem maintaining his, and this is never brought up again.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can't be using that argument when what's shown "in-game" when what's shown in game is that he can't sustain it for more than a few minutes. The entire reason there isn't s time limit in the first place is because of an even more vague timeskip of 3 days when Sonic could've been doing f*ck all.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Cal Name an instance of that outside of gameplay.

 

[Beamgc]

@Beam To be fair, that was Shadow's first time using the Super Form. That's why he almost died and Sonic was just fine.

Or because he used more energy than Sonic. And experience really matters here? Super Form automatically gives user divne powers and strength and the power level depends on the amount of positive energy that emeralds carry. Its not something like super sayan where you need to train to learn to use properly.

If experience is really a factor, Silver should not have been able to face solaris. Neither tails nor knuckles when faced with metal overlord.

@ShadowWarrior1999

And I already explained. If the superform timeout is based on energy, then megaman simply absorbs the sonic's energy and sonic gp back to normal. Theres no wank dude.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal Name an instance of that outside of gameplay.

Burden of proof's on you to prove a lack of game mechanics when the game play, the bio, and even the Smash trophy says otherwise. I don't have to prove a negative.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Beamgc "Second time." Are we forgetting that Super Sonic was introduced all the way back in Sonic 2? Also saying Shadow used more energy than Sonic is a baseless assumption.

Silver facing Solaris is pretty irrelevant, because being able to enter a super form (whether it's 5-A or 2-C) and being able to maintain it are two different things.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Burden of proof's on you to prove a lack of game mechanics when the game play, the bio, and even the Smash trophy says otherwise. I don't have to prove a negative.

The fact that it's never mentioned in cutscenes or even applicable to all of his appearances is proof enough. Also lol, Smash is non-canon.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Beamgc That would be power absorption, which Mega Man has never demonstrated.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No it's not. Its not proof enough. It's applicable to over 90% of his appearances. And I say that with no exaggeration. It's kind of mentioned with Shadow. And of course Smash isn't canon. What idiot would I be if I said it were. It was for emphasis.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

90% still ain't 100%, and you don't see Super Sonic collecting rings in cutscenes. Hell, if you don't like the Mario example, then how about Sonic not dying as long as he has rings on him? Should that be canon as well? There was no point in bringing up Smash in the first place because the fact that it's non-canon means anything it says is invalid. Smash also says Super Sonic is nearly lightspeed when his base form is FTL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let's go through his appearances:

StH2: Applicable

StH3&K: Applicable

StF: Not Applicable, but can get nuked by the self destruction of the Death Egg

SR: Doesn't canonically appear, existing separate from Sonic

SA: Applicable

SPA: Applicable

SS: Doesn't canonically appear, existing separately from Sonic

SA2: Applicable

SAdva: Applicable

SAdva2: Applicable

SAdva3: Applicable

SH: Applicable

SR: Applicable

SRA: Applicable

SRiders: Applicable

SRidersZG: Applicable

SFRiders: Applicable

S06: Applicable

SCTDB: Not Applicable. Health bar instead.

SU(360/PS3): Not Applicable. Ring based Life Gauge instead.

SU(Wii/PS2): Applicable

StH4: Applicable

SC: Applicable

SG: Applicable

SLW: Applicable

SF: Applicable

88% of the time this weakness comes into play. The other 12 percent there's another caveat, one of them directly being ring based.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

90% still ain't 100%, and you don't see Super Sonic collecting rings in cutscenes. Hell, if you don't like the Mario example, then how about Sonic not dying as long as he has rings on him? Should that be canon as well? There was no point in bringing up Smash in the first place because the fact that it's non-canon means anything it says is invalid. Smash also says Super Sonic is nearly lightspeed when his base form is FTL.

Hypocrisy. Y'all are currently trying to give him invulnerability based on this.

Edit: Oh, you meant base Sonic. My honest to goodness fault.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

And rings are applicable to the gameplay of basically every Sonic game, doesn't mean whenever Sonic gets hurt rings literally come out of him or that he can't die as long as he has rings.

 

[Theuser789]

The fact that Sonic doesn't have a ring time limit in every game proves that's a gameplay mechanic.

Also in Unleashed and at the end of Rush Sonic was staying in his super form for as long as he wants in the intro( Sonic stayed for over 80 seconds and only went back to base because of Eggman's machine) and in the end of the Egg Salamender fight were Sonic and Blaze had a long talk that lasted over 2 minutes after the fight and Sonic still went back to base because he wanted to

 

[Theuser789]

Brotherhood as well but that game's not canon.

Chronicles is canon, that's why Super forms resist mind hax