The Big Bleach Speed CRT: Part 2 - Post-Timeskip

[Arc7Kuroi]

that statement doesn't necessarily imply that their statistics are superior to all other Sternritter. Each of those guards had insanely broken Schrifts / abilities, remember.

Well if it didn't that would mean the Elite aren't unrivaled. Also, Liltotto is saying this while not knowing everything about the Elite's. Her information is likely limited to what she can judge by sensing their Reiatsu. I'm not sure if Liltotto ever witnesses their hax. Liltotto has also seen Renji and Vollstandig Bazz fight, yet still believes the Elite's are unrivaled.

As for Mask de Masculine, he wasn't able to keep up with Renji at all. The moment Renji charged at him to finish him off, Mask could do nothing to stop him.

Ehhh he threw a lariat Renji didn't dodge and a barrage of punches that Renji also didn't dodge. Renji had a serious look on his face too unlike the earlier times where he was more lax. Here's the page: https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0563-010.png it's worth noting that Mask pushed Renji to use Bankai as well, meaning Full Cheers and Vollstandig Mask scales close enough to Shikai Renji that it made Renji need to use his Bankai.

 

[Damage3245]

Well if it didn't that would mean the Elite aren't unrivaled.

So maybe Liltotto is just wrong then. I don't think we should scale the statistics of the Schutzstaffel to be superior to all non-Schutzstaffel Sternritter. Scaling them off their feats is a lot better.

Liltotto has also seen Renji and Vollstandig Bazz fight, yet still believes the Elite's are unrivaled.

By that logic Liltotto has also seen Ichigo and Yhwach fighting (on different occasions) and believes the Elites are unrivaled.

So the Elites > True Shikai Ichigo.

Ehhh he threw a lariat Renji didn't dodge and a barrage of punches that Renji also didn't dodge. Renji had a serious look on his face too unlike the earlier times where he was more lax.

Renji tanked everything he threw at him. Not dodging doesn't mean he is too slow.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So maybe Liltotto is just wrong then. I don't think we should scale the statistics of the Schutzstaffel to be superior to all non-Schutzstaffel Sternritter. Scaling them off their feats is a lot better.

First prove that Liltotto is wrong, the quote is also written in third person indicating that it's shared by the narrator as well. Feats aren't the sole method of scaling characters. Plus every feat in Bleach right now is based on characters fighting other characters who scale arbitrarily higher than a fourth seat SS Arc calc.

Renji tanked everything he threw at him. Not dodging doesn't mean he is too slow.

Getting knocked off your feet and being sent flying back =/= tanking. Tanking is what he did in the beginning of the fight, i.e. catching punches.

 

[Damage3245]

Plus every feat in Bleach right now is based on characters fighting other characters who scale arbitrarily higher than a fourth seat SS Arc calc.

So you want to use a vague and arbitrary statement that makes no reference to speed at all, to determine the ratings of these four characters, and the multiple other characters who scale to them? I absolutely disagree with using that statement.

Feats aren't the sole method of scaling characters.

True, but trying to rely on vague statements like this is way, way worse.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So you want to use a vague and arbitrary statement that makes no reference to speed at all, to determine the ratings of these four characters, and the multiple other characters who scale to them? I absolutely disagree with using that statement.

It's not vague nor is it arbitrary, to be unrivaled means to be better than your contemporaries. Because Liltotto uses it generally, it should be taken as such, that the Elite's are simply unrivaled compared to their lower ranked peers.

Also, there's still the Mask thing that further supports it, if a low tier like Mask can reach Renji's level or at least relative to it, logic reasons that those above Mask could do the same with more ease.

 

[Damage3245]

It's not vague nor is it arbitrary, to be unrivaled means to be better than your contemporaries. Because Liltotto uses it generally, it should be taken as such, that the Elite's are simply unrivaled compared to their lower ranked peers.

That is not proof that they outclass them in all aspects. Remember Askin didn't even know that he was going to be chosen or not. If he was unrivaled among all of the lower Sternritter, why would he doubt that he'd selected to go to the palace?

Also, there's still the Mask thing that further supports it, if a low tier like Mask can reach Renji's level or at least relative to it, logic reasons that those above Mask could do the same with more ease.

I don't think Mask did reach his level. Renji was simply hit multiple times, took no damage from it, then activated his Bankai and two-shot Mask, all rather effortlessly.

As for the Bazz-B fight, that is honestly a case where we're defaulting on off-screen fights to scaling them, even though we have no specific feat from either of them during that fight. The only thing we know is that Bazz-B is alive at the end of it, and Renji/Rukia are unharmed so there's no telling if Bazz-B was even able to land a hit on them.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That is not proof that they outclass them in all aspects. Remember Askin didn't even know that he was going to be chosen or not. If he was unrivaled among all of the lower Sternritter, why would he doubt that he'd selected to go to the palace?

Askin is a humble dude, even in his Post-Auswahlen Vollstandig he tells Kisuke "I don't like using words like invincible, etc etc" mans eats attacks from Yoruichi and Yushiro fine but still runs like a baby, he's just an insecure dude. Don't forget that when Askin showed up earlier in the war his presence carried a lot of weight within his own peers.

I don't think Mask did reach his level. Renji was simply hit multiple times, took no damage from it, then activated his Bankai and two-shot Mask, all rather effortlessly.

As for the Bazz-B fight, that is honestly a case where we're defaulting on off-screen fights to scaling them, even though we have no specific feat from either of them during that fight. The only thing we know is that Bazz-B is alive at the end of it, and Renji/Rukia are unharmed so there's no telling if Bazz-B was even able to land a hit on them.

Mask quite literally knocked Renji off his feat with enough force where Renji couldn't catch himself. Mask with Full Cheers was able to press Shikai Renji. The only instance of Renji casually dealing with Full Cheers and Vollstandig Mask occur when he goes Bankai.

If Bazz is still standing then that means he was able to fight with Renji which implies he is relative.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm going to stop arguing for who should and shouldn't scale off the calc until we have the thread that determines if we are still going to use the calc or not, otherwise I'm just wasting everyone's time including my own.

I say we move on from this thread and go into the remaining topics being: profile keys, the Bankai multiplier, and the FTL calcs (saving the FTL scaling discussion for the that same thread).

 

[AppleLord]

Base Yhwach should be (Stronger/Faster than when he defeated and sealed Gremmy Thoumeaux the second strongest Sternrritter Pre-Auswhalen.)

 

[SilentBob34]

One last thing about Ichibei scaling to Renji is I'd like Damage to prove that he's slower than him since he literally trained him and Renji couldn't even stand up in his palace when he first got there.

 

[AppleLord]

.By that logic Liltotto has also seen Ichigo and Yhwach fighting (on different occasions) and believes the Elites are unrivaled.

So the Elites > True Shikai Ichigo.

@Damage can you elaborate or bring the scans? I don’t remember reading about Liltotto seeing True Shikai Ichigo fight Yhwach.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Liltotto never saw Ichigo fight Juha lol.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage can you elaborate or bring the scans? I don’t remember reading about Liltotto seeing True Shikai Ichigo fight Yhwach.

Didn't mean fighting each other - just that Liltotto has experienced seeing them fight others.

 

[Zezu1995]

would byakuya saving renji and rukia from an attack from gerald be good for his speed rating?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Didn't mean fighting each other - just that Liltotto has experienced seeing them fight others.

Liltotto has only experienced Ichigo fighting while massively holding back. So nothings wrong with Elite’s > TS Ichigo holding back.

 

[Damage3245]

Liltotto has only experienced Ichigo fighting while massively holding back. So nothings wrong with Elite’s > TS Ichigo holding back.

Also, you claim that Liltotto was watching Renji vs. Bazz-B. Where is the evidence for that btw? Aren't you just assuming she had time to watch their fight instead of that actually being shown?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also, you claim that Liltotto was watching Renji vs. Bazz-B. Where is the evidence for that btw? Aren't you just assuming she had time to watch their fight instead of that actually being shown?

She doesn't need to have watched Bazz fight Renji, she's very well acquainted with Bazz. So if Bazz is that fast then Liltotto would know.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, why don't you ever bring evidence? It's always on someone else to bring it while it's ok to assume whatever you say is always right.

 

[Damage3245]

She doesn't need to have watched Bazz fight Renji, she's very well acquainted with Bazz. So if Bazz is that fast then Liltotto would know.

Your proof of that being?

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, can you prove she doesn't know?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

By the nature of how he argues, as a skeptic, it's not really required of him to bring evidence. Since he argues by saying "well what if it could have happened like this" the need for evidence is seemingly pushed on the opponent. I've brought up numerous times that in my arguments I always bring more physical evidence than he does, but it's always ignored.

Your proof of that being?

She quite literally has known Bazz her entire life, has likely trained with or near him as they've spent the whole time preparing for war in the shadows, perhaps on the order of a thousand years, seeing how Bazz was recruited prior to the first war. Also, the unrivaled quote is from a narrative perspective as it speaks about Liltotto in the third person.

 

[Damage3245]

She quite literally has known Bazz her entire life, has likely trained with or near him as they've spent the whole time preparing for war in the shadows. Also, the unrivaled quote is from a narrative perspective as it speaks about Liltotto in the third person.

That assumption isn't good enough for me to upscale multiple characters to FTL.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That assumption isn't good enough

What assumption?

 

[AppleLord]

Didn't mean fighting each other - just that Liltotto has experienced seeing them fight others.

Liltotto saw Yhwach fight Gremmy? Is that what you mean? I think it was the narrator who claimed it. Liltotto “fought” more like lost to a “casual” True Shikai Ichigo.

How is that relevant to your argument?

 

[SilentBob34]

Honestly @Damage, please post some evidence of all your arguments, because from what I've seen for the most part, any scan or statement someone has brought up, you just say no this is what I think and completely deny it.

 

[Damage3245]

She quite literally has known Bazz her entire life, has likely trained with or near him as they've spent the whole time preparing for war in the shadows, perhaps on the order of a thousand years, seeing how Bazz was recruited prior to the first war. Also, the unrivaled quote is from a narrative perspective as it speaks about Liltotto in the third person.

This whole post. @Arc7Kuroi.

You're relying on the assumption of a shared history between them, to say that Liltotto must know Bazz-B's exact statistics, to then assume that she also knew all of the Royal Guard's exact statistics, and that she compared the two of them in her head and deduced that the Royal Guard were superior in every aspect...

It's the most shaky attempt at upgrading that I've seen in a long time.

It's not a justification that I can support at all.

 

[SilentBob34]

Lmao, of course he's not gonna address what I asked.

 

[Damage3245]

Lmao, of course he's not gonna address what I asked.

Your comment's not really worth my time responding to.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's the most shaky attempt at upgrading that I've seen in a long time.

Ouchie my feelings are hurt

You're relying on the assumption of a shared history between them, to say that Liltotto must know Bazz-B's exact statistics, to then assume that she also knew all of the Royal Guard's exact statistics, and that she compared the two of them in her head and deduced that the Royal Guard were superior in every aspect...

The Sternritter share a history that spans at least 200 up to 1000 years, seeing how the first war happened 1000 years ago, and all the Quincy not with Yhwach died 200 years ago. So them having a shared history is fact.

Yhwach keeps and distributes detailed battle records, he likely does the same for his own soldiers.

Liltotto was right near Bazz as he fought Renji.

Prove to me she isn't aware of Bazz's capabilities, when the most likely option is that she is aware. Again, not to mention, the "unrivaled" comes from a narrative perspective.

 

[Damage3245]

The lack of hard evidence showing Liltotto knows exactly how fast Bazz-B is (when not even we know that for sure, seeing how his fight with Renji was off-screen) means that you can't use the statement to say each member of Yhwach's royal guard is faster than Bazz-B.

You were really relying on Liltotto knowing exactly how fast Bazz-B is for the statement you've found to be of any use, and you don't have any evidence for it. You've just posted additional assumptions.

Call in more members of staff if you want. My view on it right now is to reject using that statement to upgrade multiple characters.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Honestly, going off CFYOW, fodder Shinigami that got no diffed during the TYBW have lightning speed Zanpakuto. Lol everyone starting from at least the TYBW should upscale lightning, going off how we treat the Orihime feat.

If Lieutenants in the SS Arc are allowed to all upscale a 4th seat, because that 4th seat as a Mach 7.41 feat in the SS Arc. Then all Lieutenant class fighters and above should upscale lightning in the TYBW, since unseated no-named Shinigami have lightning speed scaling. Of course unless you want to say unseated Shinigami during the TYBW can blitz their captains in the same arc.

But but but why should we generalize this one fodder Shinigami? Ok cool then don't generalize the 4th seat from the SS arc. You can't generalize all 4th seats if you won't generalize unnamed Shinigami. So, either A) all Lieutenant+ level fighters upscale lightning in the TYBW Arc because at least one unnamed unseated Shinigami has lightning speed scaling or B) no one scales to the 4th seat since that 4th seat is the only one shown capable of reacting to Orihime and Uryu.

The lack of hard evidence showing Liltotto knows exactly how fast Bazz-B is (when not even we know that for sure, seeing how his fight with Renji was off-screen) means that you can't use the statement to say each member of Yhwach's royal guard is faster than Bazz-B.

You were really relying on Liltotto knowing exactly how fast Bazz-B is for the statement you've found to be of any use, and you don't have any evidence for it. You've just posted additional assumptions.

"Lack of hard evidence" uhhhh she's literally present when Bazz fights Renji but sure.

Call in more members of staff if you want. My view on it right now is to reject using that statement to upgrade multiple characters.

I mean preferably we'd save this discussion for the future thread on the FTL related calcs, but every time I suggest such I get ignored.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Here's my proposal for baseline's during the TYBW Arc: All characters that are ranked (or ranked above) Lieutenant level fighters scale to baseline lightning speed.

Reasoning:

• In CFYOW we learn that at least one unnamed unranked Shinigami possess lightning speed Zanpakuto.
• We know in Reijutsuin Academy the Shinigami train against each other, meaning that the fodder Shinigami spar using/against lightning speed Zanpakuto.
• In the SS Arc, a single 4th seat scales to Orihime and Uryu, so since he's ranked much lower than Lieutenants, we scale all Lieutenant+ fighters to that 4th seat as a baseline. So to maintain consistency with how we scale, we should do the same for the lightning speed fodder in the TYBW or not do it all even for the SS Arc.
  • Technically we scale 20% Lieutenants to that 4th seat, but I'm not even proposing we do that here, although I really should to maintain consistency with the accepted scaling of Bleach here.

Side note: I don't why I didn't just argue this before as opposed to back scaling the TYBW fodder to SS Arc fodder.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; we already rejected scaling based on that statement from the novel. Nothing new has been presented, so it is still rejected.

EDIT: If you bring it up again here, I will have to delete the posts for derailing.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; we already rejected scaling based on that statement from the novel. Nothing new has been presented, so it is still rejected.

No, we rejected using that statement to backscale characters from the SS Arc.

We never discussed using it to scale the TYBW Arc.

And I quite literally just presented something new...

EDIT: If you bring it up again here, I will have to delete the posts for derailing.

??? Discussing speed feats in a speed thread is derailing how? Oh wait, it isn't. If the only way you feel safe is to delete my arguments rather than try to argue against my points go for it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; the whole notion of it being the Shinigami being lightning speed instead of just shooting a lightning attack was what was rejected. There is no basis to scale it to anyone. Which includes SS Arc characters and TYBW Arc characters.

If you want to rely on statements from the novels, why not this from Candice?

As a quincy, Candice had always fought against hollows or soul reaper, however she knew next to nothing about the existence of fullbringers.
She felt as though Lil had told her something about them before, but after all, determining that they were a very small group of gifted individuals who weren’t even hostile forces, she didn’t pay enough attention to the topic.
Nevertheless, Candice had no intention of being regretful of that. This is because she strongly prides herself on the idea that no matter what kind of foe,they would all fail to to keep up with her lightning strikes, nor could they even hope to ward off such an attack.

If we go by this statement, then fodder Hollow and Soul Reapers wouldn't scale close to Lightning Speed because in her experience they would all fail to keep up with her lightning strikes.

It wasn't until she fought Ichigo that she actually met someone who could shatter her pride and keep up with her lightning.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

lightning strikes

By your own admission this is hyperbolic language.

It wasn't until she fought Ichigo that she actually met someone who could shatter her pride and keep up with her lightning.

Her same lightning that surpassed all natural lightning despite being nerfed compared to her TYBW Vollstandig form.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'd like to point something out for Candice's arrows.

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0582-011.png here they are said to contain 5 gigajoules (or 5 billion joules).

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lightning_Feats here one of the qualifications for being lightning speed is containing at least 1.6 billion joules, VSBW gives 4.4e5 m/s to lightning that is provably above 1.6 gigajoules, so her arrows in the TYBW should probably be upgraded. In the TYBW her lightning arrow carries more joules than the average lightning bolt, meaning it is likely faster than the average lightning bolt too.

So if anything this shows in the war arc Candice's arrows >= real lightning whilst in CFYOW they're <= real lightning.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Revisiting the Liltotto statement:

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0584-015.png

This shows Liltotto is familiar with Bazz's techniques, further implying she's aware of Bazz's capabilities as she says "one burner finger can't stop us"

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; that doesn't really impact anything.

Her arrows in CFYOW aren't implied to be any slower than her arrows in TYBW. If the point that will be raised is about her lacking her Vollstandig state in CFYOW, the calc for True Shikai Ichigo's feat is for her base state's arrows anyway.

And speed that is used for them is a real speed of lightning, from the same study that gives the 4.4e5 m/s figure.

This shows Liltotto is familiar with Bazz's techniques, further implying she's aware of Bazz's capabilities as she says "one burner finger can't stop us"

That shows she is familiar with his technique's name, and the AP for one of his attacks. (Which, to be fair, doesn't necessarily mean she knew the latter ahead of time, since they all on the spot took one of his Burnger Finger 1's and were standing back up immediately, showing that she at least knows now that he can't "stop them with a single Burner Finger").

 

[AppleLord]

Your comment's not really worth my time responding to.

So can we also do this an ignore any of your assumptions? And proceeded ourselves? There shouldn’t be any difference between us. Unless you are using the power at your disposal to ignore the very purpose you created the thread for, which is to discuss. Not make statements, ignore everyone else, and proced to add what you already had in mind before making the discussion thread in the first place.