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The Beast vs Toshiro Hitsugaya

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No, because Beast can RFB faster than he can freeze.

Which I have said more times than I can count, but you seem to be disregarding that.
 
@Teen you said ir took a second for the beast to launch RFB, Toshiro can swipe his sword to use flash freeze on him tto in the same amount of time.

The question is, can RFB overpowered Toshiro Flash Freeze which also has p.Null element inside of it? As I pointed out earlier, Toshiro can null someone attack withour freezing the user, only the attack itself.
 
It SPECIFICALLY says that the target has to be FROZEN before Power Nullification works.

The Ray Field Blast will kill him before he freezes him.
 
TeenAngel101 said:
It SPECIFICALLY says that the target has to be FROZEN before Power Nullification works.

The Ray Field Blast will kill him before he freezes him.
Click to expand...
Unnamedgsss
These scans...

8bce5d1095157a2bd9d3e63c15c870b1
....Says otherwise.
 
Flash-Freezing: In his matured form, Hitsugaya can flash-freeze extremely large objects with a simple hand gesture. Additionally anything that he freezes will have all it's functions and abilities negated.

That means that the ice doesn't have Power Nullification within itself. It means that it freezes the target to the point where it's abilities won't work.

Also, you are implying that The Beast will be stupid enough to take him on head on. You clearly do not know shit about InFAMOUS. The Beast's Ray Field Blast will engulf the entire battleground faster than he can freeze the entirety of it. The Beast leads with this in character. In fact, in character, he prefers to fight from a distance. So he will immediately teleport away from him and barrage him with blasts which will instantly negate his durability and kill him as soon as they make contact.

Not only that, but The Beast has far superior range. Allowing him to attack from a far more wider area, which will make it easier to surprise him and got a shot in.

The Beast can also teleport on a planetary range. And it's not like Toshiro will be able to instantly figure out where The Beast teleports to. The Beast can simply teleport behind him and RFB him while he's caught off guard.

The Beast can also manipulate gravity, and remove gravity from any and all things around him. Allowing him to simply remove Toshiro's gravity and let him hurtle into space.

He can also transform into a black-hole, which sucks in all Matter and Energy and breaks it down on a subatomic level. Toshiro has no defense against this, as any ice he attempts to freeze it with will get sucked in, rendering it null and void.

The ONLY thing Toshiro can do is Flash-Freeze him. Which he can only do from within his limited range that The Beast can and WILL easily escape from.
 
@Teen You do brings up some good points which I can agree with. But I'm afraid I have to counter some of that.

Flash-Freezing: In his matured form, Hitsugaya can flash-freeze extremely large objects with a simple hand gesture. Additionally anything that he freezes will have all it's functions and abilities negated.

The bold words will you. How it isn't a power null?

And teleporting away will only gives Toshiro time to use Shikai Hyoketsu which has the same property like flash freeze. Yes, it will kill Toshiro due it negates durability element, but this can only happen if it's really hit him. Flash freeze and Shikai Hyouketsu can deals with his barrages attacks....or perhaps using barrier with his Kido is also enough.

Enhanched sense can take cared of that.

Same as above. Also, having planetary teleportation range doesn't really help him if his attack is only city scale.

Good point. Throwing Toshiro to space would gives the beast win. But this can happen if the beast did starts attacking Toshiro with it. Since you said above that he starts attack is RFB, this won't likely gonna happen.

I also ageee with this. But again, he doesn't starts with it in characters.

Toshirp may only has power null ice in this fight. But this ability is quite useful since it can be as the means to attack hia enemy and defend himself.
 
The range for all his abilities are planetary. As I posted many comments above, he blasts destroyed the moon from Earth.

IMG 1174
Anyway, let's just let others read this and see what they vote. At any rate, this is going to get Inconclusive.
 
We got no proof if it's really the same attack he used. Hence, perhaps that's why I see his range is rated at least tens of kilometers instead of planetary. And again, distancing away will only gives Toshiro more times to acts.
 
No, that was removed for no reason. The only logical way he could've done that is with a Blast. Someone "debunked" by saying it doesn't make sense for the story, even though THAT makes no sense cause there's no other way he could've done it.

Also Toshiro's range is only dozens of meters. How's he gonna have time to act when he has no idea where The Beast will be when he teleports?

Also, Beast leads with the RFB in character. And if it doesn't work, he switches between all his other powers to see what does. Once he uses the black-hole, which is what he immediately uses after the RFB didn't work, Toshiro is finished.
 
1. Toshiro is a soul. Short of me using the "Beast can't see him" argument, he can't really affect Tosh with it, at least biologically.

"Shinigami are unearthly beings living in a world ruled by a different logic than the World of the Living. They possess high Reiryoku and a body of Reishi. They are invisible to those without spiritual powers."

Reishi (Ú£èÕ¡É, Spirit Particles) is the main component material of Souls and all spiritual matter.

When souls with exceptional spiritual energy train their bodies, they reach the level of Shinigami."

2. Beast's AP is unquantified, so like I said, it's not like he's one-shotting anybody because split the moon severely.
 
@Unite

And you don't seem to understand that it's not about AP. His Blast negates durability by draining all the energy from the targets body. That's how he oneshots.
 
And if you really wanna use that video, it shows the Beast at 0:21 with the flames in his hand, and at 0:26 the blast is released.
 
Dude, enough.

Stop trying to say his blasts are slow as shit. The time marker clearly says the Blast took 0:26 to 0:27 to completely engulf the city.
 
@Teen We we got no proof of his using the same attack to breaks the moon. I could have argue that Toshiro could freeze the black hole the beast can created but I got no proof of him doing that.

Enhanched sense. He can sense peo from afar.

And you think Toshiro would just stand there and let him used another of his tricks after seeing a City scale attack?
 
No the time marker shows that from 0:26 to 0:27 there was no blast and then there was. But he was clearly amped for the attack since 0:21.
 
You know what? I done.

I'm tired of you completely ignoring the fact that Beast has literally DOZENS more effective ways to defeat Toshiro, who only has one means of winning with very limited range.

And it seems other people are simply coming along and saying Toshiro FRA without even looking at what I say about how The Beast can easily manuver around his Flash Freeze and destroy him.

You also seem to be completely disregarding that the black-hole, one of his main moves that renders his freezing completely null.

Unite also seems hell-bent on proving The Beast's blasts are slow as snails when it clearly took one second to engulf an entire city and can be set off at will, using non-sensical reasons to try and disprove it.

I have frankly lost interest in continuing when my points keep getting shot down with ridiculous counter-arguments that make no sense and repeating the same thing over and over again.
 
For comparison, I want to point out that Cole who was on the same level as the Beast, covered the entire world within a short time frame. About a portion of the surface of the world being covered quickly. The Ray Sphere Blast has been compared to that.

Regardless of amp or not The Beast has more than enough ways to bypass conventional durability. Telefragging for example. Or charging up energy from a distance away, then reappearing at the same area and bombing the enemy. Black holes are also another option. And RFI radiation. And no it cannot influence shinigamis the same way it does to humans, but it does seem to have a negative effect on anyone else. The speed treatment here is quite unfair really. There's really minimal charge up for both contenders

Also now I'm wondering if that power nullification only works on items considering what happened to Gerard....


Also one more thing no one has mentioned. Toshiro will lose a battle of attrition. The Beast here is aware of things in a molecular level considering how he can regenerate from atoms even clearly defining what it does. So if he tosses in a fireball and sees Toshiro does some pretty crazy stunt like freeze it completely he'll understand he needs to stay the hell away.

And... that's when two factors come in.

Conduits grow stronger over time, and grow stronger the more they receive energy. In this case, The Beast is both and his power gets stronger over time. He was defeated by Cole's output in the beginning of the game and was knocked out, but recovered enough to destroy the city and some more. The second time he was knocked out, by a nuke, he recovered even faster than before. And that's only with a couple of days.

On the other hand I remember clearly Toshiro complaining that he can't keep his new form for long. In terms of stamina one has to side with the Beast with its real no limits. Whether or not Toshiro can keep going, well, it doesn't really matter since the Beast is just going to increase his stats as time passes. But that's the optimized route of him playing full defensive against an enemy which has haxx that could end him.

Which is, seriously, what anyone would do.

Or you know use a black hole or gravitational field to mess someone up.

Anyway siding with Beast here. His teleportation is really useful here anyway.
 
Also freezing energy like light particles and weapons are one thing.

But a black hole? Nah man. Just nah.

Especially when said black hole forms out of nowhere inside Toshiro's body.
 
(Sigh)

I never ignoring he has more methods. I just pointed out that Toshiro p.null ice is realy a bitch to deal with since it can act as both offense and defence. Toshiro can null an energy projectiles attack and a damage reflecting blade with a gesture of hand and a swipe of his swords, something that takes only a second at max to do so.

And again, distancing away from Toshiro wuld only gives him more times to act. Shikai Hyoketsu will freeze RFB.

Didn't I saay I agree with the blackhole argument. My only problem is that the beast doesn't lead with this.

Verse equalization. If you insist this doesn't apply in this fight, then I could argue Toshiro will Reiatsu crush him.

I also don't agree with him. The blast is really fast I give you that. But from the scans I post earlier, Toshiro can reacts to a blade that was about two meters away from him. Whether the beast will stikes him from the distance I have set or from anywhere else (which I will say it again, gonna gives him more times to act), Toshiro can still reacts to the RFB.

I'm sorry, but I already pointed out (several times already) at how Toshiro gonna counter the beast first attack. And you keep insisting that having more options would gives him a big help here. His smaller scales method hilariously can take down Toshiro, but as you pointed out several times already, he won't start being offensive with it.
 
At this rate,This might as well be listed as inconclusive with all these inputs

Both sides are clearly opinionated and view this fight differently.Dont see how we can even get a single victor without an strong objection
 
Yes but you do realize the Beast isn't Gerard who swings a giant sword with as much strategism as Kenpachi right? Aka going all in on melee? The Beast tosses fireballs at you and uses gigantic area of effect attacks. Both of which are pretty fast so I'm not sure exactly at what's being callsed slow.

They're about equal range with the environmental destruction being the only one pushing for Toshiro's advantage. Not to mention the Beast range with the moon being destroyed the moment he woke up.

Oh goodie-You serious? This is Zeref all over again. It's common strategy. When your opponent has an incredibly potent haxx, are you going to waste your time shooting off attacks you know are not going to work? It's not a matter of leading up. The Beast will realize what Toshiro can do, already explained why he can with molecules, and go for the most convenient attack right away.

What's the verse equalization directed to?

You do realize that it means that's just speed and reactions. Of course speed equalization kinda makes things black and white here... So yeah I concede on that.


Dude. The Beast isn't gonna get oneshotted. And the moment he realized he's freezing up, btw speed equalization, he's gonna teleport out of there. Or counter with an intense amount of heat. Likely the former. Don't compare the Beast to Gerard who can barely even think strategy like Kenpachi. Their playstyles are vastly different.
 
And if you're going to say flash freeze is going to be faster than anything Beast can react to, again, speed equalization, which really opens up a can of worms regarding speed equailzation. Teleporting beasts are going to be a pain to deal with.
 
(sigh) guess I have to say it again.

Projectile ain't gonna work. He can flash freeze them with a gesture of his hand and a swipe of his sword which both are pretty fast too.

His profile says that his range is at least tens of meters. Can you prove it that the beast used RFB for example to destroy the moon?

And you think Toshiro would just stand there and let him used another of his tricks? This isn't bloodlust whre a character will use any method that might be more useful than the thing they usually starts with. This is in character fight, and in character, Teen said the beast will starts with a city scale attack, which something Toshiro can defend with p.Null ice or kidp barrier.

The energy forms. On Fate vs Bleach thread, we threat Reiatsu as Magic. This happens to in this fight with...Whatever any forms of enerhy in the the infamous verse.

No. Once Toshiro freeze him, he is screwed. P.Null ice remember.
 
TeenAngel101 said:
You know what? I done.
I'm tired of you completely ignoring the fact that Beast has literally DOZENS more effective ways to defeat Toshiro, who only has one means of winning with very limited range.

And it seems other people are simply coming along and saying Toshiro FRA without even looking at what I say about how The Beast can easily manuver around his Flash Freeze and destroy him.

You also seem to be completely disregarding that the black-hole, one of his main moves that renders his freezing completely null.

Unite also seems hell-bent on proving The Beast's blasts are slow as snails when it clearly took one second to engulf an entire city and can be set off at will, using non-sensical reasons to try and disprove it.

I have frankly lost interest in continuing when my points keep getting shot down with ridiculous counter-arguments that make no sense and repeating the same thing over and over again.
Click to expand...
1. You've really only been arguing "ray field blast" the whole thread. You haven't said much else.

2. It took one second to engulf the city, but he was clearly charging for the attack 5 seconds earlier. This is what happens when you use cinematic timing as feats instead of actual stated time.
 
@Homu

Have I said they were going to be useful in damaging Toshiro? I've been arguing for the case that they will help The Beast identify what kind of things Toshiro can do.

Tens of meters- what... Well prove that Toshiro's haxx can affect people too and then we can start talking. Either way about all the abilities of the Beast are as it is. I don't get your argument. He destroyed the moon from afar. The first ability he used upon his awakening is the Ray Sphere blast.

No. You're twisting my words and I find offense to that. This isn't me assuming they're going to use their best abilities at once. This isn't bloodlust. It's them being in character. It's them logically concluding what are the weakness. I'm talking about strategizing for both accounts. Toshiro is well aware that anything he does, if his abiilty works on people too, to be enough to end the Beast.. The Beast on the other hand figures out that ALL HIS PROJECTILES WILL BE USELESS BECAUSE THE GUY HE'S FACING CAN FREEZE THEM ON A MOLECULAR LEVEL and will thus PLAY DEFENSIVE AND USE MOVES THAT TOSHIRO WON'T SEE COMING. And what move is that? It's summoning a black hole inside Toshiro. This isn't me saying Toshiro is gonna go hura durp, what is he doing, silly guy haha. This is me imagining Toshiro is regularly getting close trying to freeze the Beast, and the Beast btfoing with teleportation. This is them using their wits. This is them knowing how to beat the other. But in this case? Nothing is stopping The Beast from teleporting with a black hole inside Toshiro because oh hey....

"The Beast is at least a ranged fighter and isn't freaking rushing in like Gerard or Kenpachi". Bold are for emphasis since you seem to be ignoring that The Beast can just teleport out of the freeze mid freeze if speed is equalized.


Gotcha, well I'll concede since I doubt reiatsu would crush something that has equal energy only of a different type.

@Unite

2. I want to point out that his blast didn't just engulf the city. It engulfed a huge area around said city to the point that it got The Beast the Island Level range. And that's at his weakest, before he became his best.
 
@Homu

You are REALLY starting to sound biased, you've done nothing but argue in Toshiro's favor this entire thread, if you think a character wins, there's no point in making the thread.

You also completely missed Cores vote for the Beast
 
As for this black hole stuff...

  • Gravity Hole: Allows John to create a pseudo-black holes that pull anything close to it. It also breaks down and absorbs any matter sucked into it. Created when regenerating.
  • Gravity Lift: Allows the Beast to manipulate gravity and cause anything nearby to float.
So then this wouldn't be used? Also real black holes are just immense amounts of matter packed into a small space. Toshiro freezes these fake ones. If we're also talking about the ones he can make from his hand when Cole first fights him, all he has to do is fly away from the pull...something early Cole could do. Even he could survive getting sucked directly into one of these black holes, if we use gameplay. The range is also super limited. Black holes forming in people? Scans.

Same goes for the gravity thing. All Toshiro has to do is fly lol. But if we're taking this seriously, Dangai Ichigo casually slapped away a full incantation kurohitsugi, which was stated by Aizen to have enough power to warp time and space. Can't see Beast's gravity manipulation doing much here.

Any matter that touches Hitsugaya is froze(and if you break out of that you just get frozen even more), and anything he touches, no matter how small a piece, gets frozen entirely. Evidenced by when he sliced Gerard's sword, but instead of the cross section freezing, the whole entire sword froze, which was why it was no longer in Gerard's hand in the next scene.

All matter freezing means the Beast won't be capable of his regen. And it is very much in character for him to lead with fireballs rather than attacks he only uses when he's triggered, so he does get frozen and lose his abilities, quite fast. Then Toshiro shatters him and turns him into beast cubes.
 
@Core

There is one problem with this point, how could the beast know that Toshiro ice has p.null element into it? He has never face something like that before and most likely will assume that it just regular ice.

His profile says tens of meters. and it also said that it's unknown whether or not he used the same attack to destroy the moon.

First of all, if I offend you in someway, I apologize and can only say that it wasn't intentional. Secondly, while I do agree with how they are gonna execute this fight using their wits, you seems to forgot that once Toshiro freeze him, he cannot use any of his abilities (teleportation) since the ice negate that.

Flash freeze isn't the only way for Toshiro to defend himself from the beast attack. He still has Kido to create Danku, a Kido level 81 that has the form of a forcefield that allows the user to blocks their opponents attacks. Every captains (excluding Kenpachi and Mayuri maybe) are a kido master. They can used them without even need to move. Also, Toshiro could use some Bakudo to at least halt his movement for a moment and delivered a fatal blow. Enhanched sense can helps Toshiro to track him too.

Also, can you show me a scene where the beast creates a blackhole inside of his target?

@Gar I don't recall any rules that ban OP to make an argument in their own thread. I recall FateAlbane did what I do at Lucemon vs Lavos thread, why can't I do the same? Also, I have no idea who is gonna win this since I can't tell who's gonna vote who.
 
I have to go to work soon but I'll keep this simple and write a response to those that matter.

@Unite

Nope. Toshiro can't undo gravity. Otherwise we would be seeing rubble floating and whatnot. There's been numerous arguments as to why the black hole in The Beast's hands is legit. Not to mention it's a continuous attack that isn't just going to be halted. It's a continuous proccess.

Makes sense. But I still find that suspicious considering it only works once. If anything it looks encased and frozen in ice with the freezing spreading inside.

My argument is for Beast to teleport gtfo out there the moment he starts freezing and realizing his molecules aren't moving.


@Homu

Nice to know you ignored my posts regarding how the heck John figures it out


>Also one more thing no one has mentioned. Toshiro will lose a battle of attrition. The Beast here is aware of things in a molecular level considering how he can regenerate from atoms even clearly defining what it does. So if he tosses in a fireball and sees Toshiro does some pretty crazy stunt like freeze it completely he'll understand he needs to stay the hell away.


> The Beast will realize what Toshiro can do, already explained why he can with molecules, and go for the most convenient attack right away

Fair is fair but nothing is ever set in stone. Profiles are subjected to change all the time.

Thank you for apologizing. And yeah it's just not a good feeling being ignored when you've been repeatedly making points. The portion that's frozen at least. Just leave behind that arm. Or leave before his own body freezes up. The Beast has recovered without body parts before and it's not like he won't be able to react mid freeze, aka his arm being frozen first.

That's fine, I think he personally will survive against the Ray Blast. But the black hole forming inside him through his barrier would be the issue.


I think OPs are fine with arguing points to point out and continue the argument. But yeah OPs can't vote.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
I have to go to work soon but I'll keep this simple and write a response to those that matter.
@Unite

Nope. Toshiro can't undo gravity. Otherwise we would be seeing rubble floating and whatnot. There's been numerous arguments as to why the black hole in The Beast's hands is legit. Not to mention it's a continuous attack that isn't just going to be halted. It's a continuous proccess.

Makes sense. But I still find that suspicious considering it only works once. If anything it looks encased and frozen in ice with the freezing spreading inside.

My argument is for Beast to teleport gtfo out there the moment he starts freezing and realizing his molecules aren't moving.
Click to expand...
I'm confused...random rubble and even cars float. If they didn't, it wouldn't be gravity manipulation. It's what allows Cole to float around in close proximity to him. Toshiro can just fly around as it's weakening the force of gravity, not increasing it. That would actually be to Toshiro's benefit. And yeah, but John doesn't use it forever, he holds it for a few seconds.

The moment he starts freezing he's too late. That would be the equivalent of realizing you looked Medusa in the eyes and trying to close your eyes after the fact.
 
No, Unite, what I mean is that Toshiro himself can't negate gravity. I mean gravity manip by Beast won't slow him down for that long yeah, but that's not my main argument anymore. I cocede on that. And yeah that's the Beast at his weakest.

Speed equalized. And also the guy is made out of magma. I'd say that gives enough time to get away. Being frozen =/= Medusa's gaze. One is petrification, other needs to encase you in ice. But then again I can make the same argument for miniature black holes. So kinda equal?
 
Homu Sweet Homu said:
@Gar I don't recall any rules that ban OP to make an argument in their own thread. I recall FateAlbane did what I do at Lucemon vs Lavos thread, why can't I do the same? Also, I have no idea who is gonna win this since I can't tell who's gonna vote who.
Click to expand...
Because unlike you, Fate didn't try to disprove and go against every single point in favor of one character, Fate leaned on one character winning, but knew that Lavos had a good chance as well.

Literally any point made in the Beasts favor is "No, Null is better" or "He's more likely to strike first"

Also, Fate's one of the smartest people on this site, been here YEARS before I even knew of this site, at least on exception is fine.
 
This will be my last reply before going out for a night. It's one 1 A.M over here.

@Core

I see. That explains that.

but Core....
Flash-Freezing
Hitsugaya can do this.....

Shikai Hyoketsu
.....which doesn't really need to touch his opponent.

Toshiro can get John to his range and doing that. But his teleportation is bitch to deal with and again, Toshiro can sense someone from distance so it will at least give him the idea where John is gonna popped out next. Bakudo can be useful here to at least halt him for a moment. Also, the second scans shows that Toshiro is capable freezing a skyscraper sized guy in an instant.

I still need to the the blackhole feats first just to be sure.

Also, I know I can't vote, but the having discussion like this is pretty fun tho...
 
I didn't say he could negate gravity, I'm saying the levels Beast uses wouldn't matter to him.

Magma isn't stopping something that can freeze matter itself. And the analogy is correct. One needs to make eye contact and you're done for unless you butcher yourself and have insane regen. The other touches you in the slightest, and the same applies from above.

Though we are shown that it happens when he makes the cut, and not over time. Given his other freezing scans, it's likely the freezing happens instantly at once. There's no escape once touched.
 
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