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The Ancestor vs Emily Kaldwin

Stillwinston

Stillwinston

7,580
1,231
Well Dishonoured tier 9 stuff seems sorted, same with Darkest Dungeon. Now's as good a time as any I suppose to try this.

Speed is equalised. Both are of course 9-A, SBA Otherwise

Ruin has come to Dunwall: 0

The Empress: 1

Incon: 0

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The Ancestor

Note. This profile contains spoilers for the game Darkest Dungeon. Please do not continue if you have yet to play the game and do not want to be spoiled. The Ancestor is the descendant of a long line of high nobles who once held unimaginable amounts of wealth, and as implied by the name, the...
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Emily Kaldwin

Emily Kaldwin is a supporting character in Dishonored and one of the two playable protagonists in Dishonored 2. She is the daughter of the late Empress Jessamine Kaldwin and Corvo Attano, who was abducted by the Royal Spymaster Hiram Burroughs as part of a plot to steal Jessamine's throne. She...
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I'll say a few things

Ancestor's type 8 isn't combat applicable, the heart never bothered to bring him back after the heroes beat him. Ancestor starts with duplication in a fight also
 
What’s this guys starting move. Emily basically starts with CQC and various magic spells. Emily also has higher AP.

Edit: Does Emily have optional equipment?
 
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Ancestor starts by duplicating himself iirc, then he usually does things after. On the topic of his invulnerability he's damaged usually by killing his imperfect reflections although personally I view the hax of invulnerability with a grain of salt in general so take that what you will.

Ancestor can also throw out shields of absolute nothingness to make it harder to tag him
 
Stillwinston said:
Ancestor starts by duplicating himself
Click to expand...
  • Perfect Replication: Summons 3 Perfect Reflections. Killing them does not damage the true Ancestor.
Emily fought Delilah who can summon ~ 6 clones of herself that are relative. Using things like stealth, far reach, skill and the like, she can deal with this. She also has her own clones which function nearly identical to this.
Stillwinston said:
On the topic of his invulnerability he's damaged usually by killing his imperfect reflections although personally I view the hax of invulnerability with a grain of salt in general so take that what you will.
Click to expand...
Aight. Emily can still negate his dura with Fate + Clones would allow her to negate his dura if it comes up.
Stillwinston said:
Ancestor can also throw out shields of absolute nothingness to make it harder to tag him
Click to expand...
Are these shields omni directional? If not, I imagine she can use clones, teleportation, stealth, skill, and far reach to outmaneuver the shield. If not, could the shield prevent Domino hax? He’d still be physical and Emily could still link his physical body.

Edit: Does Emily have optional equipment
 
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AP wise Ancestor vastly upscales from the calc of 14.72 kg, the scaling chain would be Ancestor >>> End Game Heroes = Swine God > Mid Game Heroes = Swine King > Early Game Heroes = Swine Prince > 14.72kg

For the shields I'm not sure, they have movement resistance that makes it impossible to shift their position. Ancestor and his clones can move about around them though so take that what you will. Should also say Ancestor or his clones can raise their hands and do this to Emily and her clones

Still not sure about the optional equipment think Emily should be fine with it though tbh
 
Stillwinston said:
14.72kg
Click to expand...
That’s 0.01472 tons of TNT. Compared to Emily’s .13 Tons, that’s a difference of nearly 10 times. Emily may actually just one shot lmao. She should also upscale the .13 ton feat as Corvo performed the feat without his powers. His powers and mark should significantly amp his stats.

Will give a more in depth response/battle analysis soon
 
Ancestor is still much higher above that calc though keep in mind (As in he can start off no selling folks that are above that in his fight), plus he can just reduce her to a skeleton with a hand gesture so there's that lol
 
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I think that won't be used much, Ancestor mostly in his boss fight just does duplication, trying to mind/madness manip you and flaying you to the bone with a gesture. I assume Emily has 4D madness manip resist from Outsider (Darkest Dungeon has a pretty stupid scaling chain with its manip but meh), he could use Fear Manip on her though I suppose via Embrace Futility if that helps
 
Probably with using Clairvoyance I guess, stealth is a mechanic in DD and yet Ancestor can ignore it via Unmake Them All. AOE attacks ignore stealth pretty much because its a big radius of various things, yet for this he still flays their body despite being cloaked so its not them just being caught in a radius there if he's attacking the body directly.
 
Aight. Voting for Emily (mid-high diff) and here’s why
  • One shotting. Based on Calcs, The Ancestor is upscaling from 0.01472 Tons of TNT (14.72 KG of tnt = 0.01472 tons of TNT), Compared to Emily’s uspcaling from .13 Tons of TNT. That’s a difference of nearly 10 times (more specifically, 8.69732646311 times, the requirement for one shotting is 7.5 times). Based on calcs, Emily should be able to oneshot. She should also upscale the .13 ton feat as Corvo performed the feat without his powers. His powers and mark should significantly amp his stats. Whilst Ancestor seems to upscale significantly from his calc, but Emily also upscales to a significant level. For the purposes of this fight, Emily would be able to one shot, which is a huge advantage. Any attack from Emily should one shot here.
  • She should outskill and outstealth real hard. Emily can outskill groups of Witches, soldiers, and bandits easily. Mage type fighters like The Ancestor are things she has fought before. She has been trained by the worlds greatest swordsman, martial artist, and assassin since a young age. In pure combat, she definitely holds a skill advantage She can stealth around several robots with several cameras on their heads, and these same magically enhanced witches, who should have enhanced senses. All this in conjuction, I believe she should be able to use stealth in this fight, and sneak around The Ancestor. Stealth is a major advantage that Emily has often exploited (She is an assassin after all). Whilst the importance of skill can be debated, the importance of stealth can’t be debated, it’s a major advantage for Emily. I don’t see feats of the clairvoyance beating stealth on Emily’s level before. Emily, from what I’ve seen has better and more numerous stealth feats and statements than anything Ancestor has fought, so it’s not really fair to say he can beat it.
  • Emily can use far reach to avoid things like AOE by grappling onto buildings to dodge. This would also allow her to maintain stealth even in the face of AOE given the time slow effect. This is only in addition to abilities like Shadow Walk (which would make her harder to see and make her even more stealthy when moving), Numerous weaponry that would allow Emily to blind and distract Ancestor, Parkour, superior acrobatics would allow her to outmaneuver him, and Dark Vision which would let her know exactly where he’s looking, and where he will move, allowing her to make planned and calculated descions in this fight.
  • Type 8 is something Emily has fought against. Resurrection is common in dishonored, as seen with grave hounds. Emily can use stun mines or domino + knocking out clones to incap. Domino is also especially useful, as it would allow her to negate the invulnerability. Hell, apparently The Ancestors type 8 isn’t even combat applicable. One shotting alone should be able to net a win for Emily, even if that doesn’t work, she has methods of incap.
  • Clones and Duplication are again something Emily has dealt with before (As shown with Delilah) she also has her own clones to fight with her. They also release smoke when killed which can blind people. She can also use them for teleportation, which helps her maneuverability, which is especially useful for this fight. She can even summon clones from a far, allowing her to summon clones that should be able to one shot The Ancestor (They can harm characters like Delilah who scale to Emily, which gives them AP of roughly ~ .13 tons, which I’ve established can one shot Ancestor). This is also a counter to summoning.
  • Void shields get countered by Emily using Domino, which would be a non physical affect on his actual body (Which Emily can interact with and affect just fine).
  • Madness and fear Hax gets resisted. Emily has resistance to type 3, and type 2 and fear Hax can be resisted by mind manip resistance, which Emily has.
  • The flaying ability is definitely a good win on he has, but Emily using things like stealth should be able to counter it. She also has Shadow Walk to enhance stealth. Theres also the question if he’d use this before Emily uses clones, ranged attacks, or Domino to outright kill or incap Ancestor before he can flay her. I believe this is an equally likely possibility. Whilst the flaying can kill her, I believe that emily has more wincons, and in reliability and likelihood.
  • Emily can also end this fight with a single hand gesture, Mesmerize normally wouldn’t work due to resistance, but coupled with a bonecharm it gives her sleep Hax. By waving her hand, she can put the Ancestor to sleep by mesmerizing him. This gives Emily another wincon, and this one she can use as easily as the flaying from Ancestor.
With all this said, i believe this fight has two possibilities, both of which Emily should win more times than not.
  1. Emily uses stealth. With stealth, she’ll likely use far reach to grapple onto some of the buildings of new york. She can easily hide in these buildings, and use distractions to mask her escape. The buildings around NY are perfect for hiding, The time slow affect of Far Reach will certain help with escaping to stealth. With stealth, winning is as easy as domino linking and killing/knocking out a clone. She only needs a quick few seconds for that. I don’t think Ancestor can flay someone without eyes on, so he’ll have to look for her. Clairvoyance won’t really help him see her. He’ll certainly get killed either by ranged attacks, Domino, or clones that were summoned from range. She can also teleport with these clones to surprise him. Withnoptional equipment, killing clones and summons makes her invisible, making stealth even easier for her. Any ranged attack he throws first gets passively transmuted. Due to her luck Hax, ranged attacks have less probability of even tagging her as well. Emily wins in this scenario 8-9/10.
  2. Emily outright engages Ancestor. This fight seems like a draw or a close Emily win. I guess this scenario depends on how fast Ancestor uses flaying IC. If he doesn’t immediately do it, then much of the same strategies apply. She can use Domino or summon a clone right next to him for near guaranteed kills. The smoke of killing one of her clones can also confuse and blind ancestor, giving her some breathing room and an advantage. She can also far reach into CQC (range difference in SBA isn’t that big) in which she should handily dominate. She can also fling him towards herself with Far reach, as she has higher AP and LS, she can easily Ragdoll him without issue. He probably won’t even be able to wave his hand for the flaying do to the force he’s being pulled at. The only real thing stopping a CQC approach is the void shield, but the question just becomes whether or not he’ll use it before he gets one shot. If he does, Domino is still an opinion she can use quickly. She can even use it again apse any summons he may employ, linking them all to their deaths. If ancestor becomes a tentacle monster, he’ll instantly get shredded by Emily’s superior AP and sword. He can’t even use the tentacles to restrain Emily due to the LS gap. Flaying does net Ancestor a win, but I don’t think he’ll use it before getting mrked, which Emily can do quite fast. Emily in this scenario wins 7-6/10
In conclusion, this is a great fight, Ancestor does have the abilities to keep him going in this fight, but I think Emily has more consistent, more numerous, debatably more IC, and more certain win cons than Ancestor. Seemingly in both possible scenarios, Emily wins more often. Whilst Ancestor will fight hard, the queen ultimately prevails.
Click to expand...

Edit: My apologies for any typos, I wrote this quickly.

Edit 2: Extra Analysis:

Poison hax is resisted on both sides, so it doesn’t mean much in this battle.
Ancestors Necromancy, Death, and Life Hax seems non combat applicable from the profile. What use is it in battle and does he use it IC?
Apparently the Ancestor’s Curse/Fate manip is said to be non IC, and Its use still hasn’t been explained in combat, so it’s prolly not of use here
Click to expand...
 
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Jackpact said:
Emily fra, question tho can Emily target herself with Domino? I assume she can't but who know.
Click to expand...
We’ve never seen do that to herself. She can link her doppelgängers and the like, but you can’t actually target yourself with Domino. Not that it would be useful anyway.
 
Well, this does happen when you irl numbers into fictional series, I suppose. Personally, I understand. I have a few series that I think belong in a low-tier like 9-B but are much higher for some reason. You could try to ask the person who did the calls for 9-A+ Dishonroed and ask them how their numbers reached 9-A+ numbers, and if they aren't enough for you, you could possibly try to downgrade 'em.
 
It's not even pure numbers it's just like

An explosion which is probably also 9-A almost killed Corvo and kept him in a full body cast for like weeks, and he wasn't that close to the explosion and there was a barrier between him and the explosion.

I just think to look at that and still say he's 9-A+ based off one feat is silly.
 
I suppose that is one of the problems of battleboarding. Although, perhaps, due to the 9-A+ feat happening in the games, it is held up more as canon since a lot of the feats in the dishonored page stem from the games and not much from the side-stuff?

Btw, what is your opinion about this match, Jack? Want to vote for Emily or nah?
 
Jackythejack said:
An explosion which is probably also 9-A almost killed Corvo and kept him in a full body cast for like weeks, and he wasn't that close to the explosion and there was a barrier between him and the explosion.
Click to expand...
This was an older Corvo who was caught off guard btw. I don’t think this is really good for an anti feat.
 
Jackythejack said:
I really honestly don't believe that matters too much.
Click to expand...
?

Plenty of characters get hurt by lesser attacks specifically whilst off guard and caught by surprise by it. It’s a pretty common form of PIS in fiction and should be a perfectly fine explanation.

But anyway, we shouldn’t clutter the thread with this
 
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