The Absolute Evil against a Blue Hedgehog (Garou VS Sonic) (GRACE)

[McFriesGuy075]

Sonic's radiation resistance comes from being right next power plant energy inside of a giant tank and not being affected, as well as straight up touching it. I don't know what it's comparable to in terms of measurements tho

That's just a lesser instance of his resistance. He, Tails, Knuckles and Amy can withstand falling into a star, which is overwhelmingly superior to a power plant.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Sonic's radiation resistance comes from being right next power plant energy inside of a giant tank and not being affected, as well as straight up touching it. I don't know what it's comparable to in terms of measurements tho

Look below it, he has another resistance for black holes/stars

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

That's just a lesser instance of his resistance. He, Tails, Knuckles and Amy can withstand falling into a star, which is overwhelmingly superior to a power plant.

I totally forgot about that. God damn

Yeah that radiation shit is not gonna work here lol

 

[LaserPrecision]

Sonic's radiation resistance comes from being right next power plant energy inside of a giant tank and not being affected, as well as straight up touching it. I don't know what it's comparable to in terms of measurements tho

You know, weirdly enough, I looked up how much radiation a power plant emits. Apparently power plants don't even use radioactive materials. They just burn stuff and through a process create energy:

Power plants that burn fuels generally use steam boilers, combustion turbines, or both. Steam boilers burn fuel to heat water and produce steam. This steam is then channeled through a turbine, where it turns the blades and generates electricity

So I wonder if that'd need be revised as a resistance or not. Either way tho, the Sun and Black Hole bit should give him a decent resistance methinks.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Huh, all the fans I saw talking about it before made it sound a lot quicker. Are you sure that's real time seconds and not 20-60 seconds from the characters perspective? Because I'm pretty sure Child Emperor is like High Hypersonic or smth.

Nah, here's how long it took for a regular fodder kid like Waganma to fall unconscious

The fodder heroes could all asses the situation, start panicking, and then Garou could have a wholeass conversation with Bang, and only THEN the 4 foot tall child with no resistance fell unconscious.

And even after that, it took about 5 more pages for the fodder adult heroes to start falling unconscious. So I think it's safe to say it would take a solid minute to kill an adult without any extraordinary resistance.

Either way, fair point. Did wish we could quantify Sonic's resistance like Garou's radiation is quantified tho. I struggled to find anything for the potency of radiation around Black Holes or on/in the Sun. Just know that there's "a lot."

Garous main advantage on the wiki is that we prefer quantified values over unquantifiable ones and we don't have any real accepted methods of measuring radiation

 

[DavidTPPM]

I wonder what other W cons Garou has besides radiating Sonic's ass

He has a ton of durability negation hax and his other radioactive attacks hit with even more radiation (notably his GRB which would one tap Sonic) + Garou is insanely skilled so hitting sonic and avoiding his attacks should be very easy for him.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Garou is insanely skilled so hitting sonic and avoiding his attacks should be very easy for him.

Given Sonic's own exceptional combat skill, I'm not sure it'll be particularly easy for him

 

[Catbowtie]

Garou copies Sonic's combat skill then surpass it tenfold

 

[LaserPrecision]

The fodder heroes could all asses the situation, start panicking, and then Garou could have a wholeass conversation with Bang, and only THEN the 4 foot tall child with no resistance fell unconscious.

And even after that, it took about 5 more pages for the fodder adult heroes to start falling unconscious. So I think it's safe to say it would take a solid minute to kill an adult without any extraordinary resistance.

I'll take your word for it. Tho to me it didn't seem like he used his radioactive aura until the panel where Child Emperor started to feel it. But not smth I can confirm.

Garous main advantage on the wiki is that we prefer quantified values over unquantifiable ones and we don't have any real accepted methods of measuring radiation

I figured there'd be measured values from irl studies. But I guess that's also hard too. Which makes sense.

He has a ton of durability negation hax and his other radioactive attacks hit with even more radiation (notably his GRB which would one tap Sonic) + Garou is insanely skilled so hitting sonic and avoiding his attacks should be very easy for him.

Sonic is also very skilled. Just wanna note that. Extraordinary Genius combatant.

Garou copies Sonic's combat skill then surpass it tenfold

Sonic has easily beaten people who can do that. Listed in his skill section.

 

[Robo432343]

garou's passive radiation is 80-100 grays

 

[Catbowtie]

Sonic has easily beaten people who can do that. Listed in his skill section.

Garou will just copy Sonic again and again.

I'm looking at the profiles...Garou can't BFR and can't kill Sonic via radiation. It'd be easy for Garou to just punch Sonic three times for him to lose his rings...For Sonic, Garou's Type 2 Immortality and Growth would be a bother. They genuinely would make a particle accelerator of Skill.

I don't think Garou can actually win at all. Sonic's Powers and Abilities is stacked. I thought Garou could break Sonic's bones and incapacitate him but that feels too easy that I'm sure Sonic has something to deal with that too. Best he can do is delay the inevitable.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Given Sonic's own exceptional combat skill, I'm not sure it'll be particularly easy for him

I've read through Sonics profile and he doesn't seem to be Garou level skilled ngl. Worst case scenario he'd copy and perfect everything Sonic can do.

I'll take your word for it. Tho to me it didn't seem like he used his radioactive aura until the panel where Child Emperor started to feel it. But not smth I can confirm.

Garou doesn't "use" his aura is purely passive. He gets told to leave or he'll passively kill everyone, and when he wants to stop accidentally killing a kid he has to run away from it.

So it's not like he just didn't activate it

I figured there'd be measured values from irl studies. But I guess that's also hard too. Which makes sense.

That's what I thought but ig we don't usually send stuff to the surface of the sun or black holes to measure them.

Sonic is also very skilled. Just wanna note that. Extraordinary Genius combatant.

Yeah but his described skill seems to pale in comparison to Garous here. Garou constantly copies his opponent and improves their moves to its perfection, implementing them into his already insane martial art that's the aggregate of countless others capable of doing stuff such as turning people into dust with a mere graze and manipulating air as blades from long distances. Basically every time Sonic would finally adapt to Garou, Garou would just improve even further both physically and skill wise.

Sonic has easily beaten people who can do that. Listed in his skill section.

It lists Sonic beating Emerl but unless the profile undersells it, I don't think Emerl really comes near Garous level.

 

[DavidTPPM]

What exactly are Sonics win cons btw? I only played like 3 sonic games (technically 4 if we count the newest sonic x shadow as 2 games in 1) so I don't know what exactly he'd use besides basic physical attacks and spin dash

 

[LaserPrecision]

Garou will just copy Sonic again and again.

Yeah. Sonic beat someone who can do that. In 30 seconds. Someone who's possessed so much combat knowledge that supercomputers trying to unpack the data of it exploded. A robot who's stated to perfectly replicate and copy whatever he sees perfectly. And is stated to have infinite amount of possible combinations of skills he can make to use in combat. You can copy Sonic, over and over again, and he literally just beats the shit out of people who do it anyways low-diff.

I've read through Sonics profile and he doesn't seem to be Garou level skilled ngl. Worst case scenario he'd copy and perfect everything Sonic can do.

Sonic's skill is pretty stacked too I'd say. Particularly him taking on people who can do what Garo can do in terms of copying martial arts/skills/abilities/etc.

Look up Emerl's page. Sonic low-diffs him in 30 seconds at the end of Battle. Just as a frame of reference.

Yeah but his described skill seems to pale in comparison to Garous here. Garou constantly copies his opponent and improves their moves to its perfection, implementing them into his already insane martial art that's the aggregate of countless others capable of doing stuff such as turning people into dust with a mere graze and manipulating air as blades from long distances. Basically every time Sonic would finally adapt to Garou, Garou would just improve even further both physically and skill wise.

That sounds like Emerl, but minus the like 1000 years of experience and so much combat skill/knowledge that the data of it alone crashes supercomputers and the infinite amount of combination of fighting styles for any possible sort of battle and lost to a Sonic when he had a composite of said skill.

What exactly are Sonics win cons btw? I only played like 3 sonic games (technically 4 if we count the newest sonic x shadow as 2 games in 1) so I don't know what exactly he'd use besides basic physical attacks and spin dash

I'd assume Sonic just cutting Garou to pieces via a Spin Dash or Homing Attack, both of which are massive speed amps, and let him effortlessly cut through people comparable to him that could previously tank his blows. That's usually what he tends to do. Outmaneuvering opponents with his athletics and size, and peppering them to death. But with some of his equipment there are prolly other things.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Cosmic Garou is basically just Neo Metal Sonic, but with a death aura.

I don't see Sonic surviving long here.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Cosmic Garou is basically just Neo Metal Sonic, but with a death aura.

I don't see Sonic surviving long here.

That's disrespectful to Neo Very ironically enough, I'm pretty sure Neo beat Cosmic Garou in a previous thread

 

[Robo432343]

so what stops garou from either copying spin dash or evolving to it

 

[LaserPrecision]

so what stops garou from either copying spin dash or evolving to it

It's a physiological ability iirc. But uh, him just getting cut in half before he can mostly. And even copying it wouldn't give him the same amps it provides Sonic methinks. Plus Sonic easily beating people who can copy his stuff (Including Spin Dash)

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sonic's skill is pretty stacked too I'd say. Particularly him taking on people who can do what Garo can do in terms of copying martial arts/skills/abilities/etc.

Look up Emerl's page. Sonic low-diffs him in 30 seconds at the end of Battle. Just as a frame of reference.

Yeah I've read that, Emerl just isn't all that impressive. I mean it is impressive but not all that compared to Garou.
Perfectly copying moves and implementing them into his fighting style has been something Garou has been doing since his introduction, with cosmic fear mode allowing him to not just copy but perfect his opponents moves as he fights.

To add to that, Garous senses constantly evolve and help him predict plethora of possible actions the opponent could make meaning Garou would know how to counter anything Sonic could do before sonic even does it.

And to make matters worse his attacks are basically each a one shot because of his plethora of durability negation martial arts like attacking your organs with Fajin or Roaring aurora whatever fist that would break apart Sonics bones with a single graze.

That sounds like Emerl, but minus the like 1000 years of experience and so much combat skill/knowledge that the data of it alone crashes supercomputers and the infinite amount of combination of fighting styles for any possible sort of battle and lost to a Sonic when he had a composite of said skill.

I can definitely understand why that would seem to be the case but simply having a lot of experience and possible combinations of fighting styles doesn't inherently make you a better martial artist. Same way copying someone's moves doesn't instantly make you as skilled as them.

The deciding factor is how well you use that experience and knowledge which is what's kinda missing from Emerls page imo. Garou on the other hand has been shown using these skills and experiences to predict countless possible attacks, deflect attacks that should one shot him, and skill stomp insanely skilled fighters in a way where his attacks seemed to be unavoidable.

So to put it shortly, while Emerl may seem similar if not better than Garou on paper, I don't see anything that would suggest he can utilize these stats nearly as well as Garou does.

I'd assume Sonic just cutting Garou to pieces via a Spin Dash or Homing Attack, both of which are massive speed amps, and let him effortlessly cut through people comparable to him that could previously tank his blows. That's usually what he tends to do.

Garou should probably be fine then? Depending on how large of a speed amp they are, Garou has insane prediction hax as well as instinctive reactions and his main OG martial art specialized in redirecting attacks so if Sonic attacks in a ball he'd get slapped away.
Plus Garou can copy spin dash and homing attack to use on Sonic.

Outmaneuvering opponents with his athletics and size, and peppering them to death. But with some of his equipment there are prolly other things.

Garou is very acrobatic himself, being able to fight thousands of meters above ground without any flight while also utilizing portals for extra maneuverability so that shouldn't be an issue. Although small size could give Sonic a small advantage as Garou didn't really fight a lot of 1m tall people

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Would he even perceive the spin dash? It's something that literally reversed a blitz. Also I feel like people are forgetting Sonic's reactions are 4x above his other speed stats.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah I've read that, Emerl just isn't all that impressive. I mean it is impressive but not all that compared to Garou.
Perfectly copying moves and implementing them into his fighting style has been something Garou has been doing since his introduction, with cosmic fear mode allowing him to not just copy but perfect his opponents moves as he fights.

To add to that, Garous senses constantly evolve and help him predict plethora of possible actions the opponent could make meaning Garou would know how to counter anything Sonic could do before sonic even does it.

And to make matters worse his attacks are basically each a one shot because of his plethora of durability negation martial arts like attacking your organs with Fajin or Roaring aurora whatever fist that would break apart Sonics bones with a single graze.

Cosmic Garou just sounds like Emerl, but with far less combat knowledge icl. At least from that description. Again, crashing supercomputers with combat skill, having an infinite amount of variations of combat data for any possible situation, perfectly copied all of Sonic's moveset + his friends +1000+ years of combat experience (Where he single-handily won wars), and yet Sonic still prevailed in a mere 30 second bout.

Sonic has precog and enhanced senses himself that let him detect danger before it occurs. Would warn him to evade in advance which given his far better acrobatics (If you want to argue better skill, I can see that. But in terms of acrobatics, Sonic is like, the acrobatics god) should make evasion of any attack Garou throws relatively simple (Small size helps a little, but not the biggest factor). Speed amps also help too + reaction speed being 4x his combat speed. Sonic can counter predict people who can predict his own moves (Again, Emerl who was taught by Sonic to predict moves to easily evade them + perfectly replicated Sonic's entire moveset and composited it with numerous other combat data's).

Sonic similar has numerous one-shot options (Homing Attack, Spin Dash, Ichikiro Guage [Which can block damage by transferring it into energy to use an Ichikiro move], etc.) Bones won't be breaking either with the Rings Sonic has on him. I imagine Sonic's elasticity would also help with like... not having his bones breaking by just being cartoonishly squashed.

I can definitely understand why that would seem to be the case but simply having a lot of experience and possible combinations of fighting styles doesn't inherently make you a better martial artist. Same way copying someone's moves doesn't instantly make you as skilled as them.

The deciding factor is how well you use that experience and knowledge which is what's kinda missing from Emerls page imo. Garou on the other hand has been shown using these skills and experiences to predict countless possible attacks, deflect attacks that should one shot him, and skill stomp insanely skilled fighters in a way where his attacks seemed to be unavoidable.

So to put it shortly, while Emerl may seem similar if not better than Garou on paper, I don't see anything that would suggest he can utilize these stats nearly as well as Garou does.

I'd say having an infinite amount of fighting styles is a pretty damn good skill feat when all of said skills are at a baseline equal to the original. It's not an end all feat, yeah. But having an infinite variation of moves is going to make you more well-versed (varied) than... well, anyone who doesn't have infinite variations.

Emerl's page is admittedly a bit outdated. Emerl learned pretty early on while barely functional how to read and evade every attack from skilled people stronger than himself (Knuckles), defeat several people at once who are on his level (IIRC, he can fight like, 3 clones of himself simultaneously. He can also 1v2 Sonic and Shadow [A weaker Sonic than the one at the end of Battle]), parry/block attacks that should one shot him (Ichikiro gauge moves), and skill stomp other skilled character similarly. This is on top of having skill that can blow up Supercomputers, having accumulated countless fighting styles/stances/abilities/weapons/etc. for a thousand years where he has won wars single-handily, with an infinite amount of combinations of fighting styles.

Sonic himself has mastered swordsmanship like, instantly upon wielding a sword (within minutes at most IIRC), and proceeded to run a gauntlet on defeating the most skilled knights on the planet.

Garou should probably be fine then? Depending on how large of a speed amp they are, Garou has insane prediction hax as well as instinctive reactions and his main OG martial art specialized in redirecting attacks so if Sonic attacks in a ball he'd get slapped away.
Plus Garou can copy spin dash and homing attack to use on Sonic.

Well when the speed amp was calculated, it was over a 300x speed amp IIRC. But it basically lets him statue (literally, not figuratively) people who previously speed blitzed him (bare in mind Sonic's reactions are 4x his combat speed). But uh, slapping Sonic doesn't seem like a good idea. When he's curled up in a ball he basically has an energy dome around himself that explodes or slices anything it touches on contact. Pretty sure his hand would just get buzzed clean off even trying to parry it.

Would Garou even be able to copy it? He'd have to curl into a ball physically impossible for a human that's physiologically intrinsic to Sonic characters (Initially it used to be a Hedgehog only technique IIRC, but SEGA just seemed to extend it far past that). But he's very likely just getting killed before he has the chance to copy it. If Garou tries to AD to overcome the speed blitz, Sonic will also AD and immediately open the gap again and blitz regardless.

Garou is very acrobatic himself, being able to fight thousands of meters above ground without any flight while also utilizing portals for extra maneuverability so that shouldn't be an issue. Although small size could give Sonic a small advantage as Garou didn't really fight a lot of 1m tall people

Sure, I don't doubt his acrobatics. Just really doubt it's on the level of the dude who's body can literally bend impossibly to navigate any environment ever. You can take a look at Sonic's acrobatics section (and skill which covers it too). He can leap like, tens of kilometers into the air, fight while in mid-air, fight while inside of collapsing caves, navigate in pitch-black conditions where he can't see and is being attacked by several enemies at once, change his momentum in mid-air via (what will soon be vector manipulation) variations of the spin attack, teleportation via Chaos Control, skipping across water like a stone (though he can run on it as well), running up walls and ceilings, loop-de-loops, snow-boarding down a mountain doing tricks while a avalanche follows behind, just about damn anything you can think of acrobatics wise, he's done.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

That's disrespectful to Neo Very ironically enough, I'm pretty sure Neo beat Cosmic Garou in a previous thread

Two threads even

 

[DavidTPPM]

Cosmic Garou just sounds like Emerl, but with far less combat knowledge icl. At least from that description. Again, crashing supercomputers with combat skill, having an infinite amount of variations of combat data for any possible situation, perfectly copied all of Sonic's moveset + his friends +1000+ years of combat experience (Where he single-handily won wars), and yet Sonic still prevailed in a mere 30 second bout.

I think I explained how Garou's different pretty well.

Sonic has precog and enhanced senses himself that let him detect danger before it occurs. Would warn him to evade in advance which given his far better acrobatics (If you want to argue better skill, I can see that. But in terms of acrobatics, Sonic is like, the acrobatics god) should make evasion of any attack Garou throws relatively simple (Small size helps a little, but not the biggest factor).

What are Sonics best acrobatics feats? Because in terms of mobility pre-cosmic Garou was doing all this without any sort of flight abilities and cosmic Garou adds portal spamming to his acrobatic shenanigans, which gives him an insane mobility advantage.

Speed amps also help too + reaction speed being 4x his combat speed.

Wouldn't this actually mess up Sonic tho? Garou can copy stats so Sonic having higher reaction speed would just protect Garou from blitzing methinks

Sonic can counter predict people who can predict his own moves (Again, Emerl who was taught by Sonic to predict moves to easily evade them + perfectly replicated Sonic's entire moveset and composited it with numerous other combat data's).

Yeah that's pretty standard stuff in OPM. Flashy Flash can predict his opponents moves several moves ahead and Garou out outpredicted and stomped him before even gaining his cosmic form. And that's not even talking about how insanely skilled Flashy was himself.

Sonic similar has numerous one-shot options (Homing Attack, Spin Dash, Ichikiro Guage [Which can block damage by transferring it into energy to use an Ichikiro move], etc.)

Aren't those just AP amps? Because those can get redirected. Vibration based dura neg can't.
Also wouldn't Garou just copy them?

Bones won't be breaking either with the Rings Sonic has on him.

Doesn't he only have 3 in SE all of which he loses at once unless he reclaims? Idk how it's done in the story but that's how it worked in the games I played.

I imagine Sonic's elasticity would also help with like... not having his bones breaking by just being cartoonishly squashed.

Maybe with normal attacks but Garou destroys bones and organs with vibrations so Sonics squishiness probably won't affect that much (not sure tho)

I'd say having an infinite amount of fighting styles is a pretty damn good skill feat when all of said skills are at a baseline equal to the original. It's not an end all feat, yeah. But having an infinite variation of moves is going to make you more well-versed (varied) than... well, anyone who doesn't have infinite variations.

I mean it certainly sounds impressive but it's not all that. In theory I know all possible chess moves and combinations just by knowing how the pieces move, but that doesn't exactly make me a grandmaster.

What I'm getting at is that combat isn't just about knowing moves but mainly about utilizing them properly. Yk, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." type beat.

Sonic himself has mastered swordsmanship like, instantly upon wielding a sword (within minutes at most IIRC), and proceeded to run a gauntlet on defeating the most skilled knights on the planet.

I mean that's a pretty good talent feat but idk if it means anything relevant towards his general combat skill here.

Like beating masters is great but Garou does that for breakfast.

Well when the speed amp was calculated, it was over a 300x speed amp IIRC. But it basically lets him statue (literally, not figuratively) people who previously speed blitzed him (bare in mind Sonic's reactions are 4x his combat speed).

Is it like a canon value given by a statement or is it one of those "This one cinematic cutscene showed it far faster than usual and we calced it" type thing?

Either way Garou should be more than skilled enough to aimdodge him since at 300x speed Sonic wouldn't be able to keep up with his own speed and make changes to his movements.

But uh, slapping Sonic doesn't seem like a good idea. When he's curled up in a ball he basically has an energy dome around himself that explodes or slices anything it touches on contact. Pretty sure his hand would just get buzzed clean off even trying to parry it.

Water crushing whatever fist (god I hate OPM names) can redirect attacks that would normally pretty much one tap Garou including energy beams and Garou can coat his hands in gravity and nuclear energy so Sonic might actually suffer from direct contact more than Garou.

But worse case scenario Garou just opens a portal in front of him to make Sonic miss.

Would Garou even be able to copy it? He'd have to curl into a ball physically impossible for a human that's physiologically intrinsic to Sonic characters (Initially it used to be a Hedgehog only technique IIRC, but SEGA just seemed to extend it far past that).

Garou could grow wings, extra sets of arms, horns, etc, all before even getting the cosmic amp. Post cosmic amp he has universal understanding and can copy opponents even better. So he shouldn't struggle with that.

But he's very likely just getting killed before he has the chance to copy it. If Garou tries to AD to overcome the speed blitz, Sonic will also AD and immediately open the gap again and blitz regardless.

Garou wouldn't need to AD to overcome the speed. He'd probably just copy the speed itself by going mode Sonic. That's kinda his opening move anyway.

Sure, I don't doubt his acrobatics. Just really doubt it's on the level of the dude who's body can literally bend impossibly to navigate any environment ever. You can take a look at Sonic's acrobatics section (and skill which covers it too). He can leap like, tens of kilometers into the air, fight while in mid-air, fight while inside of collapsing caves, navigate in pitch-black conditions where he can't see and is being attacked by several enemies at once, change his momentum in mid-air via (what will soon be vector manipulation) variations of the spin attack, teleportation via Chaos Control, skipping across water like a stone (though he can run on it as well), running up walls and ceilings, loop-de-loops, snow-boarding down a mountain doing tricks while a avalanche follows behind, just about damn anything you can think of acrobatics wise, he's done.

That kinda sounds similar to Garous acrobatics ngl. He didn't fight in a collapsing cave but besides that he did everything else at least similarly good pre-cosmic.

And cosmic Garou now has flight and portal spamming to aid him even further which according to him now makes his attacks unavoidable.

 

[TauanVictor]

Following.

 

[Pyro9278]

Could Garou not one-shot Sonic using Black Holes? Well, initially he has a massively high LS and it could be an alternative if he notices that Sonic starts to surpass him in speed at the beginning

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Could Garou not one-shot Sonic using Black Holes? Well, initially he has a massively high LS and it could be an alternative if he notices that Sonic starts to surpass him in speed at the beginning

No? He outright resists Black Hole Creation.

 

[Pyro9278]

No? He outright resists Black Hole Creation.

Oh right, I had forgotten about that. Although how does that work, I suppose it resists the effects of the Black Hole, but does it also resist its LS?

 

[Epiccheev]

If it was Shadow he'd say
"You know Garou, i used to be like you, but one day i saw all of me"
Garou instantly reverts and begs forgiveness for all his evil.

 

[LaserPrecision]

What are Sonics best acrobatics feats? Because in terms of mobility pre-cosmic Garou was doing all this without any sort of flight abilities and cosmic Garou adds portal spamming to his acrobatic shenanigans, which gives him an insane mobility advantage.

The feat you linked for Garou is pretty identical to something Sonic did here. Sonic just kept it up for a shorter time period since he wasn't really fighting, but we know Sonic can fight in mid-air. You can watch some of Sonic's acrobatics here where he does so (Prime is weird place in the timeline, so dunno if it's Modern or Adventure era. But tbh, I never thought there was that much of a discrepancy between the iterations of them seeing as Classic keeps up with Modern just fine acrobatics-wise). But like, getting every acrobatics feat would take forever. I'd just say watch the opening and ending to Sonic CD, Sonic Superstars cutscenes, and the acrobatics listed on Adventure and Classic Sonic's page. Tho tbh, I'd also say it's worth looking at Modern Sonic's acrobatics too where he does shit like solo an entire army of people comparable to him while also avoiding danmaku gunfire and artillery fire simultaneously (On multiple occasions), Sonic being able to jump like 20 kilometers into the air in Frontiers above clouds, navigating complex environments (like previously mentioned making it through a collapsing cave without being touched by even a single piece of debris while also wielding a sword masterfully at the same time), etc.

Portals are nice, but Sonic has a Chaos Emerald. Which... just lets him teleport instantly rather than opening up a portal which takes more time.

Wouldn't this actually mess up Sonic tho? Garou can copy stats so Sonic having higher reaction speed would just protect Garou from blitzing methinks

Not really. Every time Garou tries copying Sonic, he'd just AD to close the gap again, and thus the reaction speed gap would remain constant as the two AD back and forth.

Yeah that's pretty standard stuff in OPM. Flashy Flash can predict his opponents moves several moves ahead and Garou out outpredicted and stomped him before even gaining his cosmic form. And that's not even talking about how insanely skilled Flashy was himself.

The "standard" here is the same feat I gave but just less impressive imo. Flashy is skilled, but like, I'm not putting him near Emerl's level of skill whom can do the same, that Sonic also stomped (in again, less than 30 seconds. Not real time seconds either, from their perspective). Just seems like a relative feat. And keep in mind Emerl, unlike Flashy Flash has all of Sonic's speed, acrobatics, strength, abilities, and recorded data of Sonic's skill and was still utterly defeated. Flashy Flash didn't have such intricate information on Garou, nor train with Garou.

Aren't those just AP amps? Because those can get redirected. Vibration based dura neg can't.
Also wouldn't Garou just copy them?

Some of them are. Homing Attack and Spin Dash are massive speed amps in addition to that. Ichikoro gauge doubles as a ap amp to one-shot, but can also work by putting a veil/barrier around the user with damage transferal hax which converts damage to energy for the user (Which works on a ton of shit including stuff like Shadow's hax).

He might be able to copy some of the stuff, but it's not like he'd be able to copy all the aspects of the ability if it's beyond what he's been shown to copy.

Doesn't he only have 3 in SE all of which he loses at once unless he reclaims? Idk how it's done in the story but that's how it worked in the games I played.

When he's hit he loses 1, yeah. But as you said he can pick them up again. Which given speed amps and whatnot should be rather simple.

Maybe with normal attacks but Garou destroys bones and organs with vibrations so Sonics squishiness probably won't affect that much (not sure tho)

Hmmm, I can see that maybe getting past it. Though I do feel like there are instances of Sonic tanking vibration or tremor shit that I can't recall off the top of my head from people like Knuckles or Shadow. Do keep in mind Sonic can literally be crushed completely paper flat and bounce back into shape though.

I mean it certainly sounds impressive but it's not all that. In theory I know all possible chess moves and combinations just by knowing how the pieces move, but that doesn't exactly make me a grandmaster.

What I'm getting at is that combat isn't just about knowing moves but mainly about utilizing them properly. Yk, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." type beat.

You don't know all possible chess moves and possible outcomes. You brain can't possibly come close to computing all that. Nor can you apply that and change combinations instantly to best face the threat currently ahead of you. You would have to be a supercomputer to do that. And as you may know, computers built to play chess are better than grandmasters. Emerl has infinite combinations of battle data stored in his head that is combat applicable, which he can change at a whim to best combat his current opponent.

But Emerl doesn't just "know" the moves. He can use them perfectly with the same mastery as the user. This isn't a "I don't fear the man who knows 1000 punches, but the one who has practiced 1 punch 1000 times", this is "the man who knows 1000 punches who practiced each one 1000 times". I get what you mean, but it's explicitly stated on Emerl's pages that his copying is exact and perfect, and has been shown to even improve upon them to an extent he can outskill the person he just copied.

I mean that's a pretty good talent feat but idk if it means anything relevant towards his general combat skill here.

Like beating masters is great but Garou does that for breakfast.

Was just adding onto general skill (Granted that one I remembered came from Modern era). Picking up a sword, and instantly being better at it than the best people in the world is talent worth note.

Is it like a canon value given by a statement or is it one of those "This one cinematic cutscene showed it far faster than usual and we calced it" type thing?

Either way Garou should be more than skilled enough to aimdodge him since at 300x speed Sonic wouldn't be able to keep up with his own speed and make changes to his movements.

It vastly upscales above other canon stated values like the 2x amp from speed shoes (Boost has a bare minimum 8x speed calc accepted based on an in-game speed system, but it upscales that), as well as other speed amps that aren't implied to be that impressive such as Sonic's parry being such a high perception speed amp it nearly statues people who were previously comparable + was also shown itself to statue and blitz opponents consistently in Prime that were previously equal/faster.

The speed amp affects Sonic's perception. He can also change his direction instantaneously during it as he has vector manipulation with it. So like, if Garou tries to block it, Sonic jusst redirects himself around the block and cuts him in half. You can even move around defenses in games with homing attack. So Sonic just activates it and kinda... cuts Garou up since he'd be too slow to block or dodge it when Sonic can easily change directions instantly while using them (As shown in clips I linked above).

Water crushing whatever fist (god I hate OPM names) can redirect attacks that would normally pretty much one tap Garou including energy beams and Garou can coat his hands in gravity and nuclear energy so Sonic might actually suffer from direct contact more than Garou.

But worse case scenario Garou just opens a portal in front of him to make Sonic miss.

Has he shown to redirect something that behaves like a buzz saw that cuts you up no matter what angle you grab/approach it from? Cuz it's not like there's a "non-sharp" part. Touch any part of it, and it explodes you, or cuts you to ribbons.

Portal is useful, but speed amps means he sees it coming and changes directions, or just teleports via Chaos Control.

Garou could grow wings, extra sets of arms, horns, etc, all before even getting the cosmic amp. Post cosmic amp he has universal understanding and can copy opponents even better. So he shouldn't struggle with that.

Hmm, I can maybe see that then. I don't see him copying all aspects of all abilities if they have some hax beyond what he's shown tho.

Garou wouldn't need to AD to overcome the speed. He'd probably just copy the speed itself by going mode Sonic. That's kinda his opening move anyway.

Fair enough. The speed between Base Sonic and Garou would remain constant though as every time one grows, the other grows, keeping the gap between Sonic's speed amps and perception constant.

That kinda sounds similar to Garous acrobatics ngl. He didn't fight in a collapsing cave but besides that he did everything else at least similarly good pre-cosmic.

And cosmic Garou now has flight and portal spamming to aid him even further which according to him now makes his attacks unavoidable.

I'll take your word for it. I dunno if I have the belief if Garou's exactly on Sonic's level who has 30 years of acrobatic feats though.

Sonic's vector manip via spin attack and teleportation via Chaos Control should mitigate the flight and portals methinks. On top of other stuff Chaos Control can do like time manip shenanigans.

 

[Omegabronic]

NGL, looking at Garou's skill section... not really seeing him outskilling Sonic at all, even if he was able to copy Sonic's fighting style, which i doubt since you know... he is physiologically impossibilitated to do, Sonic faced Emerl... who can do exactly as Garou does but far better, being able to combine finite fighting styles into infinite fighting styles, while also having all the combat data of everything on Earth, copying and improving on Sonic's fighting style won't do much, as Sonic is simply skilled enough yo breach that gap enormsly instanteneously. Being a far more acrobatic character also helps, and him being able to always blitz Garou to statue him with the Spin Dash and Homing Attack + having 4x greater reactions is a huge advantage

Outside of the Emerald Powets factors of him creating clones contantly, or becoming Water and Magma, which i believe would null the radiation stuff now that i think about, slowing or stoping time, BFR'nd Garou, Teleporting out of any attack with Chaos Control

Won't vote yet, will wait to see if Garou has good answers to those

 

[McFriesGuy075]

being able to combine finite fighting styles into infinite fighting styles,

About this, wouldn't this grant supergenius combat intelligence? It involves infinite amounts of information.

 

[Omegabronic]

About this, wouldn't this grant supergenius combat intelligence? It involves an infinite amounts of information.

Nope, in fact those type of ratings based on combat inteligence are being removed in the near future

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Seems to me a draw is brewing

 

[Pyro9278]

Bump

 

[TauanVictor]

Sonic dies from Garou's radiation?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Sonic dies from Garou's radiation?

Not from his passives, he can withstand falling into a star. The GRB might do him in if he gets hit though.

 

[Omegabronic]

He can also use Emerald powers to become Water or a Ball of Magma to ignore the radiation, at least the passive one

 

[Pyro9278]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

I kinda disappeared from the wiki for a week so sorry for the wait (I was busy af irl)

The feat you linked for Garou is pretty identical to something Sonic did here.

It's definitely similar but Sonic jumped around like 10x there to get to a portal.
Garou was doing that for over 500 jumps (according to the accepted calc) while fighting an opponent equal to him, across dozens of millions of meters. I'd definitely say Garou was more impressive, and becomes even more impressive with wings and portals giving him additional mobility.

Sonic just kept it up for a shorter time period since he wasn't really fighting, but we know Sonic can fight in mid-air. You can watch some of Sonic's acrobatics here where he does so (Prime is weird place in the timeline, so dunno if it's Modern or Adventure era. But tbh, I never thought there was that much of a discrepancy between the iterations of them seeing as Classic keeps up with Modern just fine acrobatics-wise). But like, getting every acrobatics feat would take forever. I'd just say watch the opening and ending to Sonic CD, Sonic Superstars cutscenes, and the acrobatics listed on Adventure and Classic Sonic's page.

Honestly I didn't find anything that would indicate Sonic can do anything more impressive than Garou did against PS in the feat I sent before.

Portals are nice, but Sonic has a Chaos Emerald. Which... just lets him teleport instantly rather than opening up a portal which takes more time.

From what I've heard (and seen in the handful of games I played) Sonic doesn't really use teleportation in-character a lot unlike Garou who spams tf out of the portals. And if Sonic does use the teleportation, Garou would probably just copy it.

Not really. Every time Garou tries copying Sonic, he'd just AD to close the gap again, and thus the reaction speed gap would remain constant as the two AD back and forth.

Is there any evidence he grows that rapidly? Because Garou has his own AD which let's him cross one shot blitz tier nearly instantaneously ON TOP of the stat copying.
So Garou could spam copying to catch up and his own AD to grow beyond Sonic the whole fight if he needs to.

The "standard" here is the same feat I gave but just less impressive imo. Flashy is skilled, but like, I'm not putting him near Emerl's level of skill whom can do the same, that Sonic also stomped

Flashy is definitely not on Emerls level in general (I'm a kind of a Flashy hater so I don't think we will disagree on that lmao) but I don't really see any evidence of Emerl predicting several moves ahead of his opponents.

Emerl can have better copying skills, adaptation skills, experience, moves, etc, but those are all separate skills from Analytical Prediction.

Just seems like a relative feat.

In one of the scans I sent Garou was dominating both Flashy and PS (who's stronger than Flashy) at once so I definitely wouldn't say that. And like I said this is pre-full monster pre-cosmic Garou. Garou far, FAR surpasses the level of skill he has here afterwards.

And keep in mind Emerl, unlike Flashy Flash has all of Sonic's speed, acrobatics, strength, abilities, and recorded data of Sonic's skill and was still utterly defeated. Flashy Flash didn't have such intricate information on Garou, nor train with Garou.

Actually Flashy did have info on Garou. After TTM got hospitalized by Garou the HA became aware of him and gained basic information about Garou. He's also stated to be the most skilled in HA which involves Garous master.
To add to that, Flashy has info analysis that allows him to find out things like an opponents weight from just their footsteps.

Now of course that's not the level of information that Emerl had but given that we brought him up specifically for Analytical Prediction, I think it's more than enough to give him a huge edge.

Some of them are. Homing Attack and Spin Dash are massive speed amps in addition to that. Ichikoro gauge doubles as a ap amp to one-shot, but can also work by putting a veil/barrier around the user with damage transferal hax which converts damage to energy for the user (Which works on a ton of shit including stuff like Shadow's hax).

That's all good but honestly it doesn't seem like anything Garou can't redirect. A far less skilled bang could redirect energy beams with one shot AP difference + Garou can cover his hands with gravity to avoid direct contact if necessary.

He might be able to copy some of the stuff, but it's not like he'd be able to copy all the aspects of the ability if it's beyond what he's been shown to copy.

I mean sure but does sonic have that's beyond Garous scope?

When he's hit he loses 1, yeah. But as you said he can pick them up again. Which given speed amps and whatnot should be rather simple.

That is a pretty big weakness that Garou could use to his advantage tbh. Besides the fact he can keep opening portals around rings until they either disappear or he grabs them first (which should give Garou their hax right?) it also means a 2 hit combo kinda cooks him.

You don't know all possible chess moves and possible outcomes. You brain can't possibly come close to computing all that.

I very much do. I know all possible ways chess pieces can move so in theory I do know all possible chess moves.

And as you may know, computers built to play chess are better than grandmasters.

Yeah but that's because they don't just know all possible moves but all possible games.

While I know every possible move an opponent could do on their move, a computer knows every possible way the entire game could go and pick the best moves based on that.

Emerl has infinite combinations of battle data stored in his head that is combat applicable, which he can change at a whim to best combat his current opponent.

That's quantity but what's more important is quality. Garou has lesser quantity of moves but so far seems to have far higher quality.

Hell even just picking the best option out of infinite options would take infinite amount of time and Emerl doesn't even have infinite speed so I don't think he has infinite quality as well.

But Emerl doesn't just "know" the moves. He can use them perfectly with the same mastery as the user. This isn't a "I don't fear the man who knows 1000 punches, but the one who has practiced 1 punch 1000 times", this is "the man who knows 1000 punches who practiced each one 1000 times". I get what you mean, but it's explicitly stated on Emerl's pages that his copying is exact and perfect, and has been shown to even improve upon them to an extent he can outskill the person he just copied.

You're not understanding me.
General "skill" isn't just about knowing how to perform a move but also utilizing it.

Imagine I go to punch you. You read my move and decide you can either dodge, block, redirect, or counter attack me. All of these options have 3+ individual sub-options (for example dodge right or left or below, block with you left hand or right hand or leg, etc).
That's over 12 different options all of which you can perform flawlessly. But skill isn't just about performing one of the options flawlessly, but picking the option that puts you in the most advantageous position.

So simply knowing moves and how to perform them accurately doesn't mean you can utilize them. I'd even say that knowing an INFINITE amount of options is self-limiting as you have to decide the most advantageous move out of the infinite amount of worse moves.

It vastly upscales above other canon stated values like the 2x amp from speed shoes (Boost has a bare minimum 8x speed calc accepted based on an in-game speed system, but it upscales that), as well as other speed amps that aren't implied to be that impressive such as Sonic's parry being such a high perception speed amp it nearly statues people who were previously comparable + was also shown itself to statue and blitz opponents consistently in Prime that were previously equal/faster.

I feel like an 8x/blitz amps should be manageable, especially since Garous first move would be to copy Sonics reaction speed.

The speed amp affects Sonic's perception. He can also change his direction instantaneously during it as he has vector manipulation with it. So like, if Garou tries to block it, Sonic jusst redirects himself around the block and cuts him in half.

So Garou just has to copy the attack itself and clash with sonic instead.

Has he shown to redirect something that behaves like a buzz saw that cuts you up no matter what angle you grab/approach it from? Cuz it's not like there's a "non-sharp" part. Touch any part of it, and it explodes you, or cuts you to ribbons.

Yeah like I said, Bang redirected energy beams before.

Hmm, I can maybe see that then. I don't see him copying all aspects of all abilities if they have some hax beyond what he's shown tho.

I mean that depends but given Sonic doesn't exactly spam esoteric haxes a lot and instead does shit like curl up in ball or punch people.

Fair enough. The speed between Base Sonic and Garou would remain constant though as every time one grows, the other grows, keeping the gap between Sonic's speed amps and perception constant.

Is there any evidence that Sonic can grow literally instantaneously without any sort of input forcing him to? Because if not Garou will catch up to him and after that they would just stay relative.

I'll take your word for it. I dunno if I have the belief if Garou's exactly on Sonic's level who has 30 years of acrobatic feats though.

Well idk either, but based on the feats I've seen so far I don't see a significant gap in acrobatic skills here.

Sonic's vector manip via spin attack and teleportation via Chaos Control should mitigate the flight and portals methinks.

Well that depends because Garou has many uses for portals. He uses them to confuse the opponent creating an "unavoidable" attack as well as to sneak up on you from behind, dodge attacks, redirect attacks, etc.
Teleportation (if Sonic does end up using it) will definitely help against some of that but idk if it really helps against everything.

On top of other stuff Chaos Control can do like time manip shenanigans.

Does Sonic do that tho? Because from what I've seen in most vs threads, the only reason every Sonic match up isn't just a 6D BFR stomp is that he doesn't actually use it.

Although like I said my knowledge on Sonic is limited to like 3/4 games (also technically Sonic X and the movie trilogy but those aren't canon to this version so I don't count them) so I'm really restricted to what you tell me

 

[LaserPrecision]

From what I've heard (and seen in the handful of games I played) Sonic doesn't really use teleportation in-character a lot unlike Garou who spams tf out of the portals. And if Sonic does use the teleportation, Garou would probably just copy it.

Sonic's teleportation is ia 6D Conceptual Energy. I don't think Garou could exactly copy that.

Is there any evidence he grows that rapidly? Because Garou has his own AD which let's him cross one shot blitz tier nearly instantaneously ON TOP of the stat copying.
So Garou could spam copying to catch up and his own AD to grow beyond Sonic the whole fight if he needs to.

Yes, it's on the profile. Classic Sonic went from High 5-A and FTL to 2-C (12 Universes) and Infinite speed instantly upon entering Modern Sonic's world when facing Chaos 0 (Which is listed on his profile). Needless to say his AD is far faster.

That's all good but honestly it doesn't seem like anything Garou can't redirect. A far less skilled bang could redirect energy beams with one shot AP difference + Garou can cover his hands with gravity to avoid direct contact if necessary.

Energy beams =/= buzzsaw quills surrounding Sonic. The gravity thing is fine, but it's unlikely he's going to be able to successfully block while Sonic has a speed blitz amp that amps his perception and can control his movement mid-air to attack where the enemy isn't blocking.

That is a pretty big weakness that Garou could use to his advantage tbh. Besides the fact he can keep opening portals around rings until they either disappear or he grabs them first (which should give Garou their hax right?) it also means a 2 hit combo kinda cooks him.

I think to absorb the rings you have to have some sort of absorption IIRC. Some people like Eggman need to build machines to channel their energy. I think someone else might remember though. I don't think he's beating Sonic to picking up rings tho giving speed blitz amps.

I very much do. I know all possible ways chess pieces can move so in theory I do know all possible chess moves.

You can know every possible chess moves. You don't know every single move simultaneously being processed in your brain.

Yeah but that's because they don't just know all possible moves but all possible games.

While I know every possible move an opponent could do on their move, a computer knows every possible way the entire game could go and pick the best moves based on that.

Which I said Emerl can do. He has an infinite amount of combinations to pick from, that's best based on the opponent he is facing.

I feel like an 8x/blitz amps should be manageable, especially since Garous first move would be to copy Sonics reaction speed.

Copying Sonic's reaction speed would just result in Sonic's AD making his own speed increase to overcome him copying it. I also said 8x was a minimum lowball, as the amp itself can turn people who were initially overwhelming him speed-wise into statues unable to move or react at all. And remember that Sonic can change his trajectory mid-air if Garou tries to open a portal or do anything to try and avoid his strike (It helps a bit that Homing Attack also instinctively homes on a weak-point, and will go around blocking enemies to damage them).

So Garou just has to copy the attack itself and clash with sonic instead.

I think he's getting speed-blitzed before he gets the chance to. But even if he's not and Garou is actually as troublesome as he's being made out to be, Sonic just uses Chaos Control to stop time and cut him up.

Is there any evidence that Sonic can grow literally instantaneously without any sort of input forcing him to? Because if not Garou will catch up to him and after that they would just stay relative.

I'm saying if Garou AD's or copies him in some way to grow stronger or faster than Sonic, his AD will kick in and it will put their base speeds on par with one another again. Though Sonic does have passive AD without input, yeah. He stated every second he gets stronger after he was shown to get many times stronger from just sitting in prison doing nothing. The roblox Sonic shit is also accepted, and Sonic gets faster from just moving in that game without any input.

Does Sonic do that tho? Because from what I've seen in most vs threads, the only reason every Sonic match up isn't just a 6D BFR stomp is that he doesn't actually use it.

Although like I said my knowledge on Sonic is limited to like 3/4 games (also technically Sonic X and the movie trilogy but those aren't canon to this version so I don't count them) so I'm really restricted to what you tell me

Sonic doesn't open up with Chaos Control. That's Shadow's thing. Sonic does use it if he's forced into a corner though. He uses it when being launched to Earth to avoid dying and get back to the ark. And he can spam it in the Shadow fight to avoid falling too far behind, he used it in 06 a few times to travel through time with Shadow and Silver. Obviously he's more likely to use it in Super or whatever when he's literally charged with Chaos Energy. But he's going to use Chaos Control if Garou is actually giving him as much trouble as you're making it out to be. He'd just teleport himself, or freeze time and cut him up into a thousand pieces.


Note that I didn't respond to everything because I want this to be the last, or one of the last replies I leave. I think other people will address further points. But I do think we've exhausted the points now and we've gotten things across pretty clearly.