Sonic vs. Meta-Cooler(s) (GRACE)

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

You know what? Screw it. After reading all the arguments, I'm going to switch my vote to the blue rodent.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

i still want to know where the 10 billion thing comes from


why not?


i mean, it did in mere minutes against a very much bigger gap, don't see why it wouldn't here


btw where is the source for the 10 billion thing? i cannot find any mention of it in the profile

regardless........how does Cooler counter being Frozen in Time with Chaos Control for Sonic to get to the Big Gete star and destroy it? or Teleporting there with Chaos Control as well?

Ring Time trasmutating all Coolers that come for Sonic while giving Sonic rings to protect himself from any blow Cooler does seems like the biggest counter for Cooler here ngl, i legit have no idea how Cooler could possibly deal with that

10 billion comes from the title, it's pretty blatant. You have to go out of your way to interpret it as refering to anything other than Cooler. For regen negation, I haven't been given any proof that he could negeate regen like Cooler's, so until I'm given proof I don't buy it. So far all I've got is 'he has regen negation' 'why would that work on cooler' 'i don't know you tell me why it wouldnt'. That's not an arguement

'Why not' isn't an arguement. You make the assertion, you prove it

And given the sheer number of Cooler's, mere minutes is a hell of a lotta time given they all know IT and can just overwhelm Sonic before the RE kicks in.

My vote hasn't changed based of the arguements used.

 

[Omegabronic]

10 billion comes from the title, it's pretty blatant. You have to go out of your way to interpret it as refering to anything other than Cooler. For regen negation, I haven't been given any proof that he could negeate regen like Cooler's, so until I'm given proof I don't buy it. So far all I've got is 'he has regen negation' 'why would that work on cooler' 'i don't know you tell me why it wouldnt'. That's not an arguement

Huh......Cooler's regen isn't anything different from other normal regen, his body heals/fixes itself.....that is pretty on point on classic regen

'Why not' isn't an arguement. You make the assertion, you prove it

.......me questioning why you beloeve something is something i need to prove now?

And given the sheer number of Cooler's, mere minutes is a hell of a lotta time given they all know IT and can just overwhelm Sonic before the RE kicks in.

Thing is, it is mere minutes to cover a Billions times difference gap, for Cooler he would need to cover like, 50 difference gap at most, which is.....significantly smaller, specially when sonic can teleport just like Cooler, and stop time to make the number advantage a non issue whatsoever

 

[Fezzih_007]

huh, aren't there like, several other Robots that are not Meta Cooler made by the Big Gete Star in the movie as well? saying it is only talking about the Meta Coolers is.....not based on anything, if the Daizenshuu really said only "Hundreds" then the other billions may just be all the other robots he has

Even then, if the BGS can produce 10 billions of the other robots, they could do 10 billions cooler too;

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Huh......Cooler's regen isn't anything different from other normal regen, his body heals/fixes itself.....that is pretty on point on classic regen


.......me questioning why you beloeve something is something i need to prove now?


Thing is, it is mere minutes to cover a Billions times difference gap, for Cooler he would need to cover like, 50 difference gap at most, which is.....significantly smaller, specially when sonic can teleport just like Cooler, and stop time to make the number advantage a non issue whatsoever

When you make an assertion, you need to prove it. This is basic stuff. When someone asks says I don't buy this because they didn't back up the assertion, going 'why not' isn't a response. "Why would this work?" "Why wouldn't it?"

That's just deflecting the responsibility of making arguements, it's lazy and dishonest.

I see that we've moved to grace so I won't continue with arguing the MU itself, but I've said my piece on that.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sonic FRA

 

[LaserPrecision]

Thing is, it is mere minutes to cover a Billions times difference gap, for Cooler he would need to cover like, 50 difference gap at most, which is.....significantly smaller, specially when sonic can teleport just like Cooler, and stop time to make the number advantage a non issue whatsoever

Tbf, you did kinda downplay his AD. He jumped from 4-B to 3-C the instant he started battling Emerl. Not minutes. Classic Sonic jumped from Tier 5 to Tier 2 literally like 1 second after popping out of a portal from the past and seeing a Chaos 0 that kept up with Modern Sonic. He went from being relative to Infinite (Won a 2v1), to fighting a robot right after, that easily had the power to creates tens of thousands of Infinite clones. Mere seconds after confronting him.

All gaps that are significantly larger than the gap between Sonic and Cooler here. I do agree with you that Sonic would literally close the gap instantaneously, but with how you described it, I can see why the dude you're talking with thought maybe Sonic couldn't grow in that time.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think Sonic wins, but I want to go more in-depth and give an analysis that addresses the concerns of those voting for Cooler.

Battle starts, Sonic sees the Big Gete Star (It's literally thousands of KM large. It would be easy to spot), and would take notice of the Metal Coolers coming from it. Sonic starts sprinting for the Star, and while doing so, he cuts up thousands of Coolers that get in his way via his ability to sharpen his quills which allow him to cut through people that scale to or above him like butter (Sonic is favored in AP, as his AD will immediately place him beyond Coolers level, and he will continue to grow, in addition to his amp via the Chaos Emerald). He will either get there quickly and easily because he can just saw through any attack that gets his way + he has speed amps that statue opponents faster than him that he can easily travel tens of kilometers with. Or Coolers will start to block his way. If Cooler's begin blocking his way Sonic can

1. Use Chaos Control to Freeze time and just go around them
2. Use Chaos Control to just teleport himself inside the Big Gete Star
3. Use speed amps and blitz through all the Coolers before they even perceive what happened

He doesn't even need his own ability to create clones, or seal to be honest. And whether Sonic can negate Cooler's regeneration or not doesn't matter since he's going to ignore all the clones he cuts into pieces and keep moving for the big ass Star blocking the horizon. And if it does work, then obviously they're less of a problem. Once inside the Big Gete Star, he will just start smashing that thing to pieces, and when he comes across Cooler in the heart of it, he will easily chop him to pieces too. If he for some reason can't, he'll just seal Cooler using the Magic Gloves.

Cooler's advantage:
1. 10 Billion clones (Potentially); They don't matter. Sonic just ignores them via amps that will let him just blitz past them, and will easily chop through any of them in huge hordes. Has Chaos Control to stop time, or teleport. He will never put himself in a situation where he gets overwhelmed, as he will always have an advantage in speed, strength, and skill, with the addition of hax.
2. Regeneration; Also doesn't matter as Sonic will simply ignore the enemy if they just regenerate and head for the Star. If he has to, he can also use Ring Time to just transmute the clones into Rings, which they cannot recover from. Though I don't think Sonic would resort to this unless absolutely necessary. But I don't think it gets to that point.
3. Infinite stamina; Same as the above
4. RE; Kinda a non-factor because of Sonic's AD which can create substantially larger gaps instantaneously, on top of granting him abilities in some situations.

I think Sonic takes a decisive win, because he's not a braindead punch merchant. He's a cocky, but gifted, tactical fighter. And will absolutely head for the massive Star literally attached to the planet they're fighting on.

 

[RanHover60]

Leaning to Sonic for now but I do think there’s a lot that’s being dismissed on Cooler’s side.

In character Sonic likely wouldn’t even use things like ring time (Has he ever even canonically used it?) meaning he’d start off the battle with no rings for Cooler to worry about.

Sonic would also more than likely start by trying to ram his way through the army of Coolers like he did to the Badnik army in Unleashed, but whereas the badniks were generally just fodder compared to Sonic, Cooler would initially be able to tank Sonic’s attacks going off their starting Ap. Cooler’s army is also likely vastly larger than the one Sonic faced in the beginning of Unleashed and there’s also the constant replenishment of troops being provided by the Big Gete Star leading to more Sonic would have to deal with.

Trying to weave his way through all the army of Coolers would also likely prove tough for Sonic due to the sheer quantity of them along with all of them being able to fly and spam ki attacks, explosions and nets to try and restrain Sonic. There’s also the fact that they astronomically outclass Sonic in LS meaning they could just restrain him or even steal the emerald from him once they figure out that's how he’s performing his time freeze.

So it kind of depends on if Cooler’s able to restrain Sonic before he reaches the Big Gete star and there’s nothing he can do if that happens

 

[Omegabronic]

Leaning to Sonic for now but I do think there’s a lot that’s being dismissed on Cooler’s side.

In character Sonic likely wouldn’t even use things like ring time (Has he ever even canonically used it?) meaning he’d start off the battle with no rings for Cooler to worry about.

Rings are standard equipment, he would have them

Trying to weave his way through all the army of Coolers would also likely prove tough for Sonic due to the sheer quantity of them along with all of them being able to fly and spam ki attacks, explosions and nets to try and restrain Sonic. There’s also the fact that they astronomically outclass Sonic in LS meaning they could just restrain him or even steal the emerald from him once they figure out that's how he’s performing his time freeze.

Chaos Emerald is in his hammerspace........there is no reason for him to take it out, plus for the quantity, Sonic can also clone himself constantly with Avatar

also even without the Chaos Emerald he can still time stop in other ways, be with his own move or with Time Break(don't forget, he has all Classic Sonic has in virtue of being his future self)

So it kind of depends on if Cooler’s able to restrain Sonic before he reaches the Big Gete star and there’s nothing he can do if that happens

he can still just attack them can he not? plus with his Analytical Prediction, 4x higher reactions, far greater skill and far greater acrobatics, it......kind of hard to get him in a hold that he can't just......destroy himself, btw if he is caught without option he will 100% use Ring Time, as i said, he ain't dumb

 

[RanHover60]

Rings are standard equipment, he would have them

Mb on that part

Chaos Emerald is in his hammerspace........there is no reason for him to take it out, plus for the quantity, Sonic can also clone himself constantly with Avatar

Don’t they need the emerald out in hand when performing chaos control? At least that’s how I remember them doing it.

also even without the Chaos Emerald he can still time stop in other ways, be with his own move or with Time Break(don't forget, he has all Classic Sonic has in virtue of being his future self)

he can still just attack them can he not? plus with his Analytical Prediction, 4x higher reactions, far greater skill and far greater acrobatics, it......kind of hard to get him in a hold that he can't just......destroy himself, btw if he is caught without option he will 100% use Ring Time, as i said, he ain't dumb

Except here’s the issue, just because Sonic can do it doesn’t mean he actually will. We literally have zero actual showing of how Sonic would use stuff like Ring time or time break in battle because he never uses them even in scenarios where they would have been extremely helpful. If Sonic doesn’t think to use them against his enemies he’d have no reason to here.

I was simply mentioning that the Cooler’s restraining Sonic could be a possibility of happening even if the chances were unlikely simply due to overwhelming size of the army. Assuming Sonic’s entire body was also restrained, I don’t really see how he could break out as a result of the ls gap.

Also from what I can see, Sonic’s ad for speed is not nearly as cracked as his ad for ap so it’s likely Cooler would be able to keep up in speed by creating more clones considering they could grow to match and eventually overwhelm super saiyan which is a 50x multiplier.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Leaning to Sonic for now but I do think there’s a lot that’s being dismissed on Cooler’s side.

In character Sonic likely wouldn’t even use things like ring time (Has he ever even canonically used it?) meaning he’d start off the battle with no rings for Cooler to worry about.

I addressed this in my last comment. I agree. He's not going to open with that. Only smth he'd use if pushed.

Sonic would also more than likely start by trying to ram his way through the army of Coolers like he did to the Badnik army in Unleashed, but whereas the badniks were generally just fodder compared to Sonic, Cooler would initially be able to tank Sonic’s attacks going off their starting Ap. Cooler’s army is also likely vastly larger than the one Sonic faced in the beginning of Unleashed and there’s also the constant replenishment of troops being provided by the Big Gete Star leading to more Sonic would have to deal with.

Sonic doesn't start by just ramming. He outmaneuvers with general acrobatics, homing attacks, spin dash, and ramming via boost. He mixes it up. Homing Attack and Spin Dash will easily cleave through Cooler instantly. Though you are right that Boost won't. It will cause significant damage and blast any Cooler that gets in his way away though. Same for any attacks directed at him while he's boosting. The replenishment won't be much of an issue though as Sonic isn't just going to sit there and fight clones all day. He was most certainly head directly for the Star very early on.

Trying to weave his way through all the army of Coolers would also likely prove tough for Sonic due to the sheer quantity of them along with all of them being able to fly and spam ki attacks, explosions and nets to try and restrain Sonic. There’s also the fact that they astronomically outclass Sonic in LS meaning they could just restrain him or even steal the emerald from him once they figure out that's how he’s performing his time freeze.

Sonic is extremely good at evasive maneuvers. Being able to navigate through hundreds and thousands of enemies while ALSO being shot at by an entire artillery of cannons and explosions without being hit even a single time despite said things downscaling to Sonic. In Frontiers he can easily evade Danmaku (You could argue that happens later, but I don't see why it wouldn't scale to his evasive feats now when that was his first time facing danmaku), he can evade attacks coming out of nowhere i.e. Shadow teleporting in and firing numerous Chaos Spears at him, etc. His small size and skill advantage will make evasion pretty simple. Especially when you consider Sonic's massive speed amplifications.

LS won't matter too much since he can use Chaos Control without pulling out the Emerald (He does so in the fight against Shadow in Adventure 2 fight when he falls behind). Also, they can't take the Emeralds from him, because as we see in Advance 3, Sonic can call the Emeralds back to him if they're stolen (Gemerl stole them to transform, and as he flew away, Sonic called them back to himself to go Super and pursue him). Chaos Emeralds IIRC have Immeasurable LS. (The Emeralds also unironically act in favor of Sonic as they have their own consciousness according to Rush 2)

So it kind of depends on if Cooler’s able to restrain Sonic before he reaches the Big Gete star and there’s nothing he can do if that happens

Tbf, if they do grab Sonic, he could use wind attacks, or his aura from boost to blow them off I would think. But he can also just use Chaos Control as mentioned by Omega and me.

I think Sonic has some difficulty against this weird opponent, but I think he handles it pretty well. It'd be like raiding a larger Egg-Base. Just minus the security measures.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sonic FRA. Cooler can adapt to Sonic's data, but Sonic's AD is a lot better than Cooler, is much more versatile and can also use chaos control to teleport himself to the star itself

 

[JJSliderman]

I forget, is Sonic naturally slower, cuz you can’t win with speed amps if you’re a slower character iirc.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I forget, is Sonic naturally slower, cuz you can’t win with speed amps if you’re a slower character iirc.

If I'm correct he's x1.16 faster than Cooler

 

[Omegabronic]

I forget, is Sonic naturally slower, cuz you can’t win with speed amps if you’re a slower character iirc.

only if said amp would blitz in a situation where he wouldn't normally blitz the opponent, else it is still valid

 

[LaserPrecision]

I forget, is Sonic naturally slower, cuz you can’t win with speed amps if you’re a slower character iirc.

I mean, would it matter if Sonic was naturally slower? Even if he were, Accelerated Development would close the gap and leave Sonic favored anyways. And that's only if speed is equalized. It doesn't really need to be equalized here because even if Sonic was slower, he'd have AD as mentioned before. But as far as I'm aware, Sonic naturally has the advantage anyways.

 

[JJSliderman]

Okay, I guess I’ll go for Sonic then.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

For the 999999th time I gotta remind people that AD scaling isn't valid on the wiki (e.g "Jumping from tier 4 to tier 3/2 l" and that kinda stuff. Yeah, you can't use that to prove an AD ability is better than another unless you argue the character can jump to higher tiers they've never reached. That + the fact AD is an inconsistent ability by nature).

Anyways,as far as I can see, this is :

Sheer numbers + AD + RE/Data analysis= Meta Cooler(s)

AD + RE + hax and infinite energy (and some other stuff ig?) = Sonic

They both have AD and RE. AD is probably the most important thing here. So it comes down to whether the MCs go for the kill and try to instantly overwhelm Sonic with the numerical advantage, and IF Sonic recognizes the danger he's in and goes for hax right off the bat or not before that happens.

So I'm voting Incon. Too many variables at play here.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'll vote for incov for now based on Ottavio's reasonings

 

[Robo432343]

INCON FRA

 

[LaserPrecision]

For the 999999th time I gotta remind people that AD scaling isn't valid on the wiki (e.g "Jumping from tier 4 to tier 3/2 l" and that kinda stuff. Yeah, you can't use that to prove an AD ability is better than another unless you argue the character can jump to higher tiers they've never reached. That + the fact AD is an inconsistent ability by nature).

Anyways,as far as I can see, this is :

Sheer numbers + AD + RE/Data analysis= Meta Cooler(s)

AD + RE + hax and infinite energy (and some other stuff ig?) = Sonic

They both have AD and RE. AD is probably the most important thing here. So it comes down to whether the MCs go for the kill and try to instantly overwhelm Sonic with the numerical advantage, and IF Sonic recognizes the danger he's in and goes for hax right off the bat or not before that happens.

So I'm voting Incon. Too many variables at play here.

I'm not sure what you mean by you can't scale AD. There's some pretty evient differences in pacing or limitations when it comes it AD in general. I don't think we're going to act like a dude who overcomes a 2x difference in the spam of a 10 minute fight is on the level of a person who overcomes a 1000x difference in 2 seconds. But if that somehow isn't valid, then yeah, Sonic has reached tiers via AD that the opponent hasn't.

Only other thing worth noting in Sonic's advantages that you missed is massive blitz speed amps.

Even if the MC's go for the kill right away, they wouldn't be able to do so. Sonic wouldn't stand there and let them. And it's not like it's difficult for Sonic to see he's not in a favorable situation if he sees a wave of literally millions of clones coming for him. I'm not sure what part of this has too many variables to account for. It's not like we're talking about two super-genius fighting with billions of individual inventions that would take forever to account for on each side. If it helps, I gave an analysis further up that covers both sides. Sonic can unironically just boost all the way to the Big Gete Star, and the Coolers couldn't do anything due to them being too slow to stop him. He can stop time, and they couldn't stop him. He can teleport straight to the Big Gete Star and they can't stop him.

It's not a no-diff, but it's a pretty clear/divisive match in Sonic's favor.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Sonic FRA, but I do think he would get his ass kicked a lot before pulling out his win cons in-character. Thankfully for him, rings are standard equipment, so he can tank a lot of hits.