The 3-A Triforce

[Antvasima]

Wokistan is correct.

 

[AshenCrow777]

@TLK if your just here to make the thread go toxic in order to close it forcefully in order to spit @Konaguna i think its in the interest of everyone if you kept your mouth shut or leave but if you actually have something smart to say or actually have anything good to contribute by all means you are welcome to stay.

But whatever beef you have with Kona stays between you two and no else cuz you know like wokistan said you cant go around and say to people to kill themselves.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Do people have rebuttals to the presented evidence?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They've already have been given rebuttals time and again in this thread, there are no sufficient feats or any conclusive statements that point to universal scale, just the wildest, highmost-end interpretation of various ambiguous quotes.

 

[TriforcePower1]

They've already have been given rebuttals time and again in this thread, there are no sufficient feats or any conclusive statements that point to universal scale, just the wildest, highmost-end interpretation of various ambiguous quotes.

"Chaos (Ancient Greek: ¤ç╬¼╬┐¤é, khaos) refers to the void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos"

"µÀÀµ▓îÒü«Õ£░ÒÇÇÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü½ Ú╗äÚçæÒü«õ©ëÕñºþÑ×ÒÇüÚÖìÞç¿ÒüÖÒÇé Three great golden goddesses descended to the land of chaos that was Hyrule." -Deku Tree

"ÒüùÒüïÒüùÒé¼ÒâÄÒâ│Òü»ÒüØÒéîÒüáÒüæÒüºµ║ÇÞÂ│ÒüøÒüÜÒÇü『ÕàëÒü«õ©ûþòî』ÒÇüÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½ÒéÆÒééµêæÒüîþë®Òü½ÒüùÒéêÒüåÒü¿õ╝üÒéôÒüºÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒüÖÒÇé

But Ganon isn't satisfied, so he proceeded to rule the "light world", Hyrule." -ALTTP manual

"It (the Dark World) mirrors the Light World" -Hyrule Historia

Which part of this is "high-end"?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I should note any time Hyrule is mentioned as the country in ALTTP, it'll say "The Kingdom of Hyrule" or "The Land of Hyrule", never just "Hyrule".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You trying to to link Hyrule to the universe and use the Greek concept of Chaos lol.

 

[ALRF]

Japanese idea of chaos isn't the "void that preceds chaos". Heck there's no such concept afaik.

In Japan, heaven and earth were mixed. All elements were in a state of chaos. From this chaos, the pure light ones rose to become Heaven, while the heavy mud became the earth

µ£¼µûçÒü½ÒéêÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÕñ¬ÕÅñÒÇüÕñ®Õ£░Òü»ÕêåÒüïÒéîÒüªÒüèÒéëÒüÜÒÇüõ║ÆÒüäÒü½µÀÀÒüûÒéèÕÉêÒüúÒüªµÀÀµ▓îÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒÇéÒüùÒüïÒüùÒÇüÒüØÒü«µÀÀµ▓îÒü«õ©¡ÒüïÒéëÒÇüµ©àµÁäÒü¬ÒééÒü«Òü»õ©èµÿçÒüùÒüªÕñ®Òü¿Òü¬ÒéèÒÇüÚçìÒüŵ┐üÒüúÒüƒÒééÒü«Òü»ÕñºÕ£░Òü¿Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒÒÇéÒüØÒüùÒüªÒÇüþÑ×ÒüîþöƒÒü¥ÒéîÒéïÒÇé

 

[TriforcePower1]

Japanese idea of chaos isn't the "void that preceds chaos". Heck there's no such concept afaik.
In Japan, heaven and earth were mixed. All elements were in a state of chaos. From this chaos, the pure light ones rose to become Heaven, while the heavy mud became the earth

µ£¼µûçÒü½ÒéêÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÕñ¬ÕÅñÒÇüÕñ®Õ£░Òü»ÕêåÒüïÒéîÒüªÒüèÒéëÒüÜÒÇüõ║ÆÒüäÒü½µÀÀÒüûÒéèÕÉêÒüúÒüªµÀÀµ▓îÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒÇéÒüùÒüïÒüùÒÇüÒüØÒü«µÀÀµ▓îÒü«õ©¡ÒüïÒéëÒÇüµ©àµÁäÒü¬ÒééÒü«Òü»õ©èµÿçÒüùÒüªÕñ®Òü¿Òü¬ÒéèÒÇüÚçìÒüŵ┐üÒüúÒüƒÒééÒü«Òü»ÕñºÕ£░Òü¿Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒÒÇéÒüØÒüùÒüªÒÇüþÑ×ÒüîþöƒÒü¥ÒéîÒéïÒÇé

Well, that's clearly not the case here. Elements got created, the Heavens were seemingly preexistent and there's actually someone creating those things.

 

[ALRF]

I was just clarifying to SomebodyData

 

[TriforcePower1]

I was just clarifying to SomebodyData

Oh, okay. Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Please try to be more polite when arguing with others. It is rude to laugh at them.

 

[AshenCrow777]

you guys know that Japanese Mythos does actualy use Primordial Chaos not just Greek Mythos hell the full concept of Shintoism was built on Primordial Chaos and in Fiction when the lore mentions Chaos before anything else (like loz did) they mean Primordial Chaos because The 3 GG's predates Time and Space and when they came to exitence they created the whole loz universe too assume that Primo Chaos dosent have the same meaning despite the game lore keep throwing it in our face is complet and i apoligies but it is frankly BS

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew
Please try to be more polite when arguing with others. It is rude to laugh at them.

We have been trying to be polite for over 300 posts by now, but the pro-upgrade side continues to bring forth the same arguments over and over as if they are infallible.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Matthew
Please try to be more polite when arguing with others. It is rude to laugh at them.

We have been trying to be polite for over 300 posts by now, but the pro-upgrade side continues to bring forth the same arguments over and over as if they are infallible.

But... I always brought up new things...

I'm going to write a reply, I'm just collecting my thoughts.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I gave up about 100 posts back so...

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I gave up about 100 posts back so...

Weak smh.

 

[Zeldasmash]

This is honestly getting nowhere...

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Matt

"In a Creation Myth context, The Goddesses creating the world from Chaos, specially in conjunction to the statement that they predate time itself, means that they formed the universe from a primordial state of chaos.

This is basic stuff. You are just arguing semantics."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it really doesn't.

They just say that Hyrule was chaos until the goddesses created the lands, the skies, and the laws of nature. It doesn't say that hyrule is a universe or that Hyrule = Light World = Universe. Even in the context of A Link to the Past the Light World is described as what can at most be generously called a planet, if not just a single land.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

If the light world is descrbied at most as a planet and dark world is it's parallel, then does the Dark World have a sun in the sky?

 

[TriforcePower1]

You do realize I've literally copy-pasted your comment from an another thread, right? Contradicting yourself now?

"Again, basic interpretation. The Chaos here is the typical chaos of Creation Myths, a formless state before the universe was created and / or ordered."

It's not Hyrule = Light World = Universe, It's just Hyrule = Universe. The Hyrule = Light World part is from a different quote. Light World = Dark World which is at bare minimum 2 Astronomical Units.

 

[TriforcePower1]

If the light world is descrbied at most as a planet and dark world is it's parallel, then does the Dark World have a sun in the sky?

Yeah, it does. Light World isn't used as planet.

[1]

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

My bad, I meant to say "then why does the Dark World have a sun?"

 

[TriforcePower1]

Oh, sorry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Sun thing to me seems exactly like the Touhou / Gensokyo situation. Gensokyo is an alternate reality but shares the same sun as Earth because of how things work.

Given how in A Link to the Past you don't travel to the Dark World by entering a portal or teleporting, but by shifting in place through song, I'm more inclined to believe that the Light World and Dark World are two aspects of the exact same space. Mirrors if you will.

Which is a lot more believable.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Matt Not that I'm an authority on Zelda but...two different realities sharing the same sun seems like what would need to be proved with evidence.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Matt That isn't implied anywhere. Like, at all. Even ALTTP manual refers to the fact that they were different world.

...You didn't play ALTTP, am I right? You get to the Dark World via portals. I can't even think of a Zelda game where you travel to different worlds via song.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

The Sun thing to me seems exactly like the Touhou / Gensokyo situation. Gensokyo is an alternate reality but shares the same sun as Earth because of how things work.

Going to ask, where are you pulling this from? At best, this is a headcanon to stop the upgrade unless you can give proof this is supported in canon.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Given how in A Link to the Past you don't travel to the Dark World by entering a portal or teleporting, but by shifting in place through song.

Uh...but you do travel to the Dark World by entering portals or being being teleported there by Agahnim/Ganon. You never play a song in the game for anything other than summoning a duck for fast travel.

Edit: Ninja'd by TriforcePower

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And that proves it's a universe how? It doesn't, nothing proves it whatsoever. And I have extreme doubts that the Dark world is ever intended to be more than a parallel to the country of Hyrule.

 

[Konaguna]

Because Sacred realm was never a part of Light world

I've already said that the only reason they are so alike and people mistake it for some mirror of the same world is because it's a result of Ganons wish, he wanted the light world, got the dark world.

>Literally says there are 2 overworlds in the game

This has been already discussed we're going in circles

 

[TriforcePower1]

True, ALTTP manual stating they're different worlds isn't nearly enough to prove it. But this is:

"µÀÀµ▓îÒü«Õ£░ÒÇÇÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü½ Ú╗äÚçæÒü«õ©ëÕñºþÑ×ÒÇüÚÖìÞç¿ÒüÖÒÇé Three great golden goddesses descended to the land of chaos that was Hyrule." -Deku Tree

"ÒüùÒüïÒüùÒé¼ÒâÄÒâ│Òü»ÒüØÒéîÒüáÒüæÒüºµ║ÇÞÂ│ÒüøÒüÜÒÇü『ÕàëÒü«õ©ûþòî』ÒÇüÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½ÒéÆÒééµêæÒüîþë®Òü½ÒüùÒéêÒüåÒü¿õ╝üÒéôÒüºÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒüÖÒÇé

But Ganon isn't satisfied, so he proceeded to rule the "light world", Hyrule." -ALTTP manual

You thinking something doesn't mean it is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Light World and Dark World are clearly separate realities; the Dark World is the Sacred Realm, which is separate from Hyrule. However, there still doesn't quite seem to be solid proof of Universal feats. Additionally, Kona's right that we're just arguing in circles at this rate; so it might be best to just change nothing and close the thread.

 

[TriforcePower1]

No, I think we should still discuss it.

@Dark Which is the part that doesn't convince you?

 

[Konaguna]

@Dark

No I disagree with this being closed, or else we're just going to restart this due to not having matters concluded at hand.

I also think statements and such are scattered everywhere on this thread and might give the wrong impression

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well at the very least, we should move to this thread since it's not cluttered with over 400 posts.

Anyway, even the Real Cal Howard gave up a long time ago above. And I initially said I was neutral, but I'm mostly just tired of arguing; especially since we have like three Zelda threads open. Still, is there any mentioning that Zelda has any worlds that are Infinite in size? Or at the very least has showings of many stars being effected?

Still, while I don't agree with everything Matt said, the parts about him refuting the Universal statements does make sense to me. Also, the Chaos argument seems too vague IMO. I can still guarantee that the Sacred Realm is a world containing a planet to sun radius at the very least.

 

[Konaguna]

Asking again, why are we even considering the observable space as the highest possible size?

By this logic every Verse that has no explanation of their Cosmology is by default a planet with a sun or a star and that's that.

Also, literally none debunked the timeline thing I brought up ƒñÀƒÅ╗ÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

 

[TriforcePower1]

After failing to upgrade the Zelda verse several times, Cal gave up MUUUUCH more time ago. And the other two threads are concluded, aren't they?

The Chaos argument seems pretty clear IMO. Chaos = Hyrule, and so, when the Chaos became the universe, Hyrule also became the universe.

I also think we may need to move it, but to a new thread and close that one you linked.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No one said it's the highest possible size, we simply said we need more elaborance. It's simply the baseline for size is Earth to Sun radius. It could be much bigger yes, but we need more solid proof to verify that. At least show some more context that isn't flowery language if there is any.

Also, having its own timeline doesn't automatically make it a universe; take Hyperbolic Time Chamber for example.