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Zelda: Massive Revisions

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ZephyrosOmega

ZephyrosOmega

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Well, this has been a long time coming.

As we all know, Zelda is currently rated at Solar System Level for Demise creating a realm with a sun. However, i'm here to make the unfortunate news that this is not an accurate representation of his actual dialogue. Let's begin.

"Solar System Zelda"

This is a concept that arose from the idea that Majora created a universe inside The Moon, and Demise created a universe for Link and him to battle in. It has been well documented for about a year and half now on VS Battles wiki. This is not real. It was never real. To clarify one more time, Majora's Mask's "Moon Dimension" is far too vague to actually understand what is happening and it really shouldn't apply to anyone at all. There is nothing indicating that this was created by Skull Kid, Majora, or anything of the like.

And on that note, Demise did not create a pocket dimension. That is fake. It is flowery language that was cooked up by Nintendo of America. It was vague enough as it was in the translation with "The World I will Create" (which implicates still that he's just going somewhere and he didn't make the place) and it is further invalidated in a more up-to-date Japanese-English translation, linked here.

https://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Thread/151525-Demise-s-Japanese-Speech-Re-Translated/

That's it for Solar System, but what about Large Planet? After all, Ganon did create an "Endless Night", right?

"Large Planet Zelda"

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dust_Collector/Ganondorf_rotates_the_planet_(Redone)

Here's the feat of Ganondorf supposedly rotating the planet. However, I suppose i should remind the wiki of what this was ruled at the first time this was accepted.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Ganondorf_Causes_Endless_Night

According to LordXcano, the person who created the calc thread, The direct quote (you can find in the comments from Antvasima) is "Now with my powers the flow of time is yours to command. For you I shall create a day that never ends."

Time manipulation is the most logical explanation, as it's happened multiple times before on a similar scale. For example...

-Nayru causes an endless day in Oracle of Ages

-Any song of the sun that helps make the day transition

-Stasis in BotW (a smaller scale, but it proves that selective time stops aren't far fetched in the verse)

And also there's the fact that nothing even remotely implies something as outlandish as a stop in the Earth's rotation, which would also make it impossible for there to exist atmospherical changes and tides.

Overview

As shown, there's no actual statement of Demise creating this world nor Majora creating his, and it can't be applied to destructive power. Seeing as these are the only feats that put Zelda at this level, it's clear the verse is in for a heavy downgrade. Here's what I suggest.

Attack Potency And Durability: Thanks to Skyward Sword, Link has feats of being Multi-Continental. Being undoubtedly superior to Levias should put him on this level. Alternatively, Planet Level can scale from Majora, which shouldn't be a large problem. However, do keep in mind that it's canon that Fierce Deity was required to defeat Majora from this statement:

"The mastermind behind these events was none other than Majora's Mask. Link pursued the mask to the center of the moon. There, a strange battle unfolded. Link transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books), pg. 112)

At least Multi-Continent Level, Planet Level with Fierce Deity Mask.

That should be it. Relativistic shit is fine. And link has a shitton of stat amps and hax and shit that doesn't really need changing. In either case... Discuss.
 
Solar system comes from the TF warping the Sacred Realm which has centre on the planet which upgraded the calc to 4-B. they're probably going to be downgraded due to pocket realities stuff if the 3-A upgrade is rejected.

Majora DID create the moon (it disappears when Majora is defeated), and iirc that translation was wrong.

What XCano was talking about was Veran's feat, which is time manipulation, but Ganon was done via TK. That has aready been discussed in an another thread.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Solar system comes from the TF warping the Sacred Realm which has centre on the planet which upgraded the calc to 4-B. they're probably going to be downgraded due to pocket realities stuff if the 3-A upgrade is rejected.
Majora DID create the moon (it disappears when Majora is defeated), and iirc that translation was wrong.

What XCano was talking about was Veran's feat, which is time manipulation, but Ganon was done via TK. That has aready been discussed in an another thread.
Click to expand...
Reality warping isn't a feat of destructive power.

It's not the moon that's the problem, it's the realm inside the moon.

Nothing has shown the translation is wrong.

What implies ganon did this via TK.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Reality warping isn't a feat of destructive power.

It's not the moon that's the problem, it's the realm inside the moon.

Nothing has shown the translation is wrong.

What implies ganon did this via TK.
Click to expand...
1. Reality Warping has been used to measure AP before, for example, Gremmy Thoumeaux.

2. So he made the moon, but not the pocket dimension that was inside it? What kind of logic is that? How does any of that make any sense?

3. I don't know about any translations so I can't comment here.

4. I don't remember the exact reasoning, but there was a really big thread about it months ago, I'd suggest searching for it and looking at the reasoning presented.
 
Warren Valion said:
ZephyrosOmega said:
Reality warping isn't a feat of destructive power.

It's not the moon that's the problem, it's the realm inside the moon.

Nothing has shown the translation is wrong.

What implies ganon did this via TK.
Click to expand...
1. Reality Warping has been used to measure AP before, for example, Gremmy Thoumeaux.
2. So he made the moon, but not the pocket dimension that was inside it? What kind of logic is that? How does any of that make any sense?

3. I don't know about any translations so I can't comment here.

4. I don't remember the exact reasoning, but there was a really big thread about it months ago, I'd suggest searching for it and looking at the reasoning presented.
Click to expand...
1. Gremmy Explicitly used his to create something, not alter something that already existed. And his ability was far different from the triforce.

2. Literally nothing implies that it's real. Since it's inside the moon, There's no reason to assume that the star is real, and the same goes for the dimension as a whole.
 
4. Time manipulation is the most logical explanation, as it's happened multiple times before on a similar scale. For example...

Nayru causes an endless day in Oracle of Ages

Any song of the sun that helps make the day transition

Stasis in BotW (a smaller scale, but it proves that selective time stops aren't far fetched in the verse)

And also there's the fact that nothing even remotely implies something as outlandish as a stop in the Earth's rotation, which would also make it impossible for there to exist atmospherical changes and tides
 
1. Altering a solar system-sized realm instantly is a Solar System level feat. And Imagination realization, or making your deepest desires become reality, is something both Gremmy and the Triforce can do. The ability isn't "far different". What are you talking about?

2. Why would you make the assumption that it isn't real? When you saw the moon at the beginning of the game, did you assume that it wasn't real until you ran out the timer and was killed by it? The Moon Majora created is magical in nature, and it having an inside that is bigger then the outside with a star in it isn't beyond belief. It's more of a jump in logic to assume what you are looking at isn't real?
 
1. The full Triforce has only been used to directly grant wishes, not grant power, and when it's been used, it's either discarded immediately (Skyward Sword) or just never used again (A Link to the Past and its sequels)

2. Because it's backed up by statements about it being the moon. The "dimension" inside the moon should logically be the same size, as nothing else majora has shows any destructive power near that level.
 
yeah because the idea of a sun being inside the moon (that's smaller than the real moon) makes so much more sense. there's not even any proof that Majora created the moon (since we don't see any other moon in the game, it's likelier that it was already there)
 
In either case, being magical in nature is no justification. There's no reason to assume the contents are the same size as their real life counterparts, especially since there's evidence to the contrary.
 
I'll give my own thoughts in a more detailed comment later, but for now I will say I'm also not 100% convinced of the High 5-A stuff, even Azzy said he finds it iffy. The tier 4 stuff I'll need some time to gather my thoughts.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Don't use fallacies to try and prove an argument that's already flawed, please.
Click to expand...
You never claimed what the fallacy was and just randomly called what he said a fallacy. Elaborate on this.
 
It's a huge leap in logic to assume that the sun inside the moon is real than it is a simple illusion or projection. I'd also like to point out that even on his profile, it's listed that Majora pulled the moon from orbit and didn't create the moon himself.
 
That wouldn't be a fallacy though, just bad reasoning. Haven't read anything else here, though.
 
Ant this thread is a downgrade. The stuff they were talking about above is their current 4-B justification.
 
1. Ganon didn't simply warp the Sacred Realm, he basically created the Dark World via RW

"Ooh, I'm really surprised. I didn't think that I'll ever see someone that is not insane. It's been few hundred years. Well, let me talk with you for a sec. Do you know this story..... They say that this world was created to grant Ganon every wish he chooses to make. What is Ganon's wish, you say? To be King of all worlds of course. He can do it with magical energy of the Dark World, can't he?"

2. Majora created the moon. Saying it didn't create the dimension inside of it is borderline ridiculous. You say it's an illusion? Try using the lens of truth on the sun, then. Spoiler, it's still there.

About Demise's feat these are some quotes from the thread that upgraded him:

Úé¬Ú¡öÒüîÕàÑÒéïÒü¼Õá┤µëÇÒüºþø©µëïÒéÆÒüùÒüªÒéäÒéìÒüå.

Okay then. I shall make a space where we will have no distractions exist. If you have the guts to fight me, you will find me there.

3. Ganon can't manipulate time. He tried to obtain the power of the composer brothers' "song of sun" which is explicitly stated to manipulate time but failed. He wouldn't have tried to obtain it if he could do that.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
It's a huge leap in logic to assume that the sun inside the moon is real than it is a simple illusion or projection. I'd also like to point out that even on his profile, it's listed that Majora pulled the moon from orbit and didn't create the moon himself.
Click to expand...
What? No it isn't. It's a huge leap in logic to assume the sun isn't real.
 
1. There is literally no reason to assume this tree is telling the truth or correct about the situation. This is a statement from someone who doesn't know any better, and it contradicts what's already on the wiki anyway.

2. Saying there's a full-fledged dimension with a SUN inside the moon (which is already smaller than a real moon) is a bigger leap in logic than assuming that it's not real. Saying it's real is based on semantics and assuming that Nintendo intended the lens to be used in there, when it serves no real purpose.

3. As i've already stated: the "created a space where no distractions against" is a mistranslation, and you can find it in the link that I posted up top.

4. This is also an outlier, and we can't go anywhere with this until somebody digs up the original thread about it being TK
 
I should ask here, people here seem to agree that the moon was created by the mask but what is the evidence for that? I don't recall, best I could find immediately would be claims that the mask created Termina. If that is the reason why, I'm not sure why the rating isn't higher exactly because iirc Termina is a parallel universe and contains stars and stuff. Idk if I outright support that idea though.
 
It's doesn't have to be destructive capacity to be an attack potency feat; that's like one of the most overused and cliche ways to argue against a tier upgrade. Here, we do generally treat reality warping feats and creating feats as attack potency because quite frankly; it's still manipulating massive amounts of energy. And if anything, it should be better than destruction since it requires more control.

The Sacred Realm's 4-B calc is legit since Inverse square law in which even the sun being at the edge of the miniature big bang or reality warping wave; whichever is prefered, would yield high results. If the edge exceeds the suns GBE, then the center point would be much higher and calc'd at 4-B.

As for Majora's feat, it has been discussed multiple times to be legit. Because once again, reality warping is still attack potency even if it isn't destructive capacity. One of the definitive examples of "Reality Warping" is "Destruction and re-creation with your imagination." Which the Majora's Mask was legitimately stated to have created the realm by making their imagination reality.

As for Demise, I did hear mixed results, but I'm leaning towards him remaining High 4-C. Hyrule Historia did heavily imply him to be the strongest foe aside from Complete Triforce Ganon. Unsure if his "Star creation feat" was legit though, but I did hear he could scale from Majora.

Also, as for the Ganondorf's High 5-A feat in Wind Waker; I'm also unsure about that. Cal's input would be important as would Azathoth's though. Also, much of us learned the hard way not to really trust LordXcano's sense of judgement; especially recently. These days, 99% of his logic is like Wall level Boros, Wall level Thanos, Street level and Subsonic Superman, and a bunch of other stuff. Even if it's just time manipulation as oppose to flipping the world; that would still imply though whole planetary wide reality warping and possibly effecting the moon and/or sun. Sun is stretching it, but Earth and Moon both seem clearly effected.
 
Thanks DDM

About the High 5-A feat, this is Cal's comment from last thread.

"I mean, OoT makes it very apparent that Ganon can't switch betweeen day and night in the way Link can, so the idea that Ganon did it via time manipulation is out. And the day/night...clock(?) changes when Ganon does the endless night feat."

And, honestly, everything sans Time manipulation would scale to his magical power.

This was the thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1949363
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Sacred Realm's 4-B calc is legit since Inverse square law in which even the sun being at the edge of the miniature big bang or reality warping wave; whichever is prefered, would yield high results. If the edge exceeds the suns GBE, then the center point would be much higher and calc'd at 4-B
Click to expand...
We don't use inverse square law for pocket realms anymore unless explosions are actually involved, so the 4-B calc is no longer legit.
 
I don't recall that being agreed; I remember quite the opposite. Plus we still got to consider the space between the sun and the Earth, so if we aren't going to accept the 4-B calc, then High 4-C at bare minimum is legit. Still leaning towards accepting 4-B.
 
It does seem kinda weird to have a pocket realm to scale to multiple kiloFoe simply for existing with a sun and planet when no explosion is involved whatsoever, despite the fact that baseline Solar System level would be an omnidirectional explosion starting from the sun that's capable of wiping out the furthest planets in our solar system.

But whatever. I'll let other people decide on that.
 
Perhaps we should rate it as High 4-C instead then?
 
Would probably be consistent, considering Majora's moon realm, which consists of a planet of entirely unknown size and a star, is considered to be High 4-C. But idk what people have agreed on.
 
To be fair, it's at least an Earth to Sun radius in which the sun rotates around the Earth. Assuming it rotate around the Earth every 24 hours would give it a High 4-C result. It could be much larger for all we know. However, one with a Complete Triforce could basically destroy and recreate the Sacred Realm as many times as they desire.

I still want to hear Cal's input; though, he's admittedly bean through a lot with other Zelda revision threads, and I too have been rather tired of them.
 
I just wanted to confirm if you had seen the thread or not.

I'm not actually sure what the final conclusion was...or if there even was one.
 
I don't even think there was a conclusion; and it seemed divided between the staff to be fair. Doing it by size was agreed to be a lowball though.
 
Tfw this thread turns from a downgrade thread into a "Is the Triforce really 1 KiloFoe" thread. Man Zelda threads have a hard time staying on track lol. In any case it looks like most people agree that the Majora and Triforce stuff are still tier 4. Demise should have his "creation" feat removed from his AP description due to it being an mistranslation (He'd also need to lose Pocket Reality Manipulation).

@Azzy You mentioned before that you also found the High 5-A ratings iffy, have your thoughts on that changed?
 
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