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The 3-A Triforce

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Are you 100% sure that kanji is the one that would so much as have a chance of getting your case anywhere? I'm not sure I see the appllication to your case, for that matter.
 
Follow Doctor Freeman said:
Leaving others to piece together the context and application of this quote isn't doing a favor for yourself.
Click to expand...
Sometimes people understand things better when they understand that in their own way rather than slapping it on their face.
 
Why are using the cosmogony definition, especially given the Japanese, as far as I know, don't even use that definition? (It's a mostly Western/Arabic concept)

The modern definition fits just fine too, if what you're implying is that Hyrule was a void before the Goddesses came. (Though not sure why that matters?...)
 
No offense to present company, but, yes, you are going to have to be extremely obvious. Otherwise people will make the weakest possible assumption about what you're saying, and, worse yet, you and they will be arguing on different pages. That's the main reason I'm in this thread; I'd like to steer the conversation to the most communicatiuve and clear state, whatever its conclusion may be.
 
It calls the yet-to-exist universe Hyrule, Hyrule = Light World = Dark World. As it's stated above, that's what "Chaos" is. Freeman was right.
 
"Chaos (Ancient Greek: ¤ç╬¼╬┐¤é, khaos) refers to the void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos"

"µÀÀµ▓îÒü«Õ£░ÒÇÇÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü½ Ú╗äÚçæÒü«õ©ëÕñºþÑ×ÒÇüÚÖìÞç¿ÒüÖÒÇé Three great golden goddesses descended to the land of chaos that was Hyrule." -Deku Tree

"ÒüùÒüïÒüùÒé¼ÒâÄÒâ│Òü»ÒüØÒéîÒüáÒüæÒüºµ║ÇÞÂ│ÒüøÒüÜÒÇü『ÕàëÒü«õ©ûþòî』ÒÇüÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½ÒéÆÒééµêæÒüîþë®Òü½ÒüùÒéêÒüåÒü¿õ╝üÒéôÒüºÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒüÖÒÇé

But Ganon isn't satisfied, so he proceeded to rule the "light world", Hyrule." -ALTTP manual

"It (the Dark World) mirrors the Light World" -Hyrule Historia
 
The creation myth isn't the best source to use. It has the land of Hyrule being created before the sun.

You are just trying to force a literal interpretation that Hyrule is a universe now, it seems... Is this an elaborate prank?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The creation myth isn't the best source to use. It has the land of Hyrule being created before the sun.

You are just trying to force a literal interpretation that Hyrule is a universe now, it seems... Is this an elaborate prank?
Click to expand...
...At most you proved that the visuals are inconsistent. The statements themselves are stated by one of the most knowledgeable guys in the Zelda verse.

Ah, the good ol' trick of denigrating the argument instead of debunking.
 
@Matthew -- Erm, not that my mind's made up on this piece of evidence, but could you elucidate (kudos if you get the pun) what would be problematic about the sun not being made first? Or are you saying the text itself is unreliable in-verse? Sorry to badger you.

Ninja'd by edits, though I'm still confused.
 
If I remember correctly, Hyrule is used interchangeably with the kingdom, continent, planet, and universe, so going off the high-end seems disingenuous.
 
Dust Collector said:
I agree with pretty much everything Azzy has said, the overall argument for 3-A Triforce is shaky without any explicit evidence or statements to back it up and is based on using the absolute highest interpretation for almost every statement.
Click to expand...
Agree 100% with this.
 
@Follow

I don't think the sun was made after the land of Hyrule.

It just goes to show that these in-universe sources aren't the most reliable thing when it comes to talking about the universe.

Makes sense, it's a medieval fantasy setting.
 
SomebodyData said:
If I remember correctly, Hyrule is used interchangeably with the kingdom, continent, planet, and universe, so going off the high-end seems disingenuous.
Click to expand...
No, it's only used for kingdom, Light World (and the mirror of other worlds like Termina), and the combination of Light World and Sacred Realm (assuming all those statements don't simply mean that the connectio between the two is in Hyrule).
 
So why do you try to argue universal by quotes which clearly say "Hyrule".

Never mind that Light World is synonimous with Hyrule more often than not.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Follow

I don't think the sun was made after the land of Hyrule.

It just goes to show that these in-universe sources aren't the most reliable thing when it comes to talking about the universe.

Makes sense, it's a medieval fantasy setting.
Click to expand...
You "don't think", but you haven't shown anything proving that. This is just you refuting evidence for the sake of it.

You're denigrating basically the most knowledgeable character of the verse just because you disagree with a statement?

Anyway, I won't be capable of replying for a bit.
 
I'm not denigrating a character, chill out. These people don't even exist.

"Refuting evidence for the sake of it" ... Uuuh, yes? This is what we should do. Fairly analyze and refute evidence wherever possible. What you're basically saying is asking me not to think or debate and just accept the statement blindly.
 
I doubt the writers would put info in the game in purposefully unreliable context, but I digress. And reminder for the sake of everyone being on the same page: we're still on my point #2, being "When text says the Triforce can mess with the whole Dark World/Light World, do they mean the whole universe or the kingdom or the planet or what?" I'll go ahead and say what I was typing earlier so I can go start watching a four-hour Russian movie or something.

Personally, I like a good circumstantially evidenced case even if there's no single "zinger" in it, but unlike, say, the U.S. legal system, people here don't operate on convincing cases built on circumstantial evidence as opposed to direct confirmation. If there's even the most minute possibility something doesn't mean what your case wants it to, it gets dismissed, regardless of how consistent or sensible your case is. So you'll have to provide info with a bright red neon sign that reads "3-A"; no theorizing or reasoning based around anything less than watertight, only something totally unambiguous and leaving nothing to chance. Whether people like it or not is no business of mine; I like the thought exercises more than the results, anyway.

@Matthew -- Would you say my above paragraph is accurate? Less what TP just referred to as "Refuting for the sake of it" and more like "There's a possibility this isn't watertight"? I don't want to speak for anyone else if I'm being disagreeable.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I'm not denigrating a character, chill out. These people don't even exist.

"Refuting evidence for the sake of it" ... Uuuh, yes? This is what we should do. Fairly analyze and refute evidence wherever possible. What you're basically saying is asking me not to think or debate and just accept the statement blindly.
Click to expand...
Okay, denigrating was a strong word, but yeah. You got what I meant.

I'm not telling you to blindly accept, it's just that you're basically blindly disagreeing. That's not much better. You're saying that "It just goes to show that these in-universe sources aren't the most reliable thing when it comes to talking about the universe." when this is basically WoG put in the mouth of a character. One of the most knowledgeable ones.
 
I don't know anything about any Cell, but what I'm saying is this. Your case is built on evidence that, all together, point to the same conclusion. Matthew and Azathoth -- correct me if I'm wrong here, gentlemen -- have issue with it because they find room for diverging interpretations on each individual piece, even if the pieces make a coherent picture when put together. "Do these terms refer to a universe being affected or just a kingdom?" "What's the meaning of the choas term, and is the source reliable?" Et cetera. What they want from you is for you to get some evidence that has no room for any interpretation except one favoring your case.

Personally, I'm fine with a good circumstantial case, and I think Occam would agree, but it isn't my call.
 
Well, Zelda has tech, too, and Cal means the method of delivery rather than the aesthetics, but I think the more important thing is if the primordial chaos quote can be applied meaningfully, rather than the quote's reliablility (the latter is probably fine).
 
It's not like Zelda has tons of Technologofal constructs and literally an entire civilization which are non living mechanisms
 
I think the source is reliable unless proven otherwise; why have it in the story unless it's true or expressly untrue to the lore? So I guess now it's time to discern if the source is reliable and, for that matter, applicable. Anyway, now Imma watch some dusty old movie, as soon as I hit Cal's animation thread with a short mind-blower...
 
@Triforce I'll say this again, going with the high-end of Hyrule meaning universe rather than kingdom, continent, or planet (Also you sure? Pretty sure it was used in continent / planet context before, @Cal help with that)

And again, only the Western world / Arabic one uses Chaos in that context, there is no reason to assume that the developers used Chaos like that.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
My main point is that I don't think that myth is 100% reliable proof of universal scale.
Click to expand...
Just a note that Zelda isn't the kind of game that treats in-universe creation myths as unreliable. It is fairly straightforward in that manner, as far as I have understood.
 
@The Legendary Kurac

Such statements are definitely not allowed in this wiki. Consider this as a strict warning that you will get banned if something like this happens again.
 
SomebodyData said:
And again, only the Western world / Arabic one uses Chaos in that context, there is no reason to assume that the developers used Chaos like that.
Click to expand...
Japanese doesn't even use the word "chaos" in creation myths (ASAIK) at difference of this one.

Also,

Matthew Schroeder said:
Makes sense, it's a medieval fantasy setting.
Click to expand...
No, Hyrule's only used as the kingdom and as the "Light World", which is at absolute bare minimum 2 astronomical units from being = to the Dark World, a parallel world that has a sun and the planet is at the center (which is the reason we know the two meanings are separated, as Hyrule isn't all that big of a kingdom). These are the only meanings it assumed through the series. At most it's stated that the SR is inside Hyrule but those statements probably refers to the fact that the CONNECTION is inside Hyrule.
 
Why was my comment deleted? I did not even do anything bad.

I disagree with everything regarding OP. He is very unreliable and I do know what he has done in the past so I wouldn't trust him one bit. He seems to have thrown some random statements around and tried to make it work.
 
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