Tensura CRT: Possible Layers in Tensura

[Berga14]

Agree with 2nd metods, i don't dislike the first though

 

[Ultimuru]

I am fine with method 1 since Ifrit go trough few power ups.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Agree with 2 but 1 is still fine
Ifrit needs that upscaling fr

 

[Cipher72]

Ifrit needs that upscaling fr

Clayman 2.0

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Clayman 2.0

Lol

 

[PrimeHydra64]

After reading through, I'd prefer method 1 but i'd still be okay with method 2.

 

[Ultimuru]

Now when I think about it. EP doesn't influence one single resistance. It influences person in general. Shouldn't the rest of resistances also get additional layers?

 

[Berga14]

Now when I think about it. EP doesn't influence one single resistance. It influences person in general. Shouldn't the rest of resistances also get additional layers?

I believe we shouldn't exagerate things. For now we can stick to EE.

 

[Cipher72]

Now when I think about it. EP doesn't influence one single resistance. It influences person in general. Shouldn't the rest of resistances also get additional layers?

Wanker stop Wanking,
Not rlly, EP is just quantification of combat power. The reason why EP is granting layers of resistance to EE is because it's shown or demonstrated in this case. We see characters with higher EP value resist EE that would erase them at lower EP value thus we can infer that EP grants resistance to EE. The same can't be said for other resistances unless shown otherwise. Since it hasn't been shown (for now) we can't simply apply the resistance. It's a very unique case imo since EP is mostly meh.

 

[Elizhaa]

I shared SomebodyData;s view on the methods.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Hmm, well I’m usually more conservative when it comes to these topics so I’ll stick with method 2 (especially when it comes to adding layers of resistance); that said, if it does bring about consistency issues - and more people think method 1 works better, I wouldn’t have an issue there.

Hello, this thread received all needed votes and more members came to vote, so I'm now (kind of) obliged to ask your opinion on which method to use
If we count the votes of members in a fashion where "I agree with method X" gives 1 vote to that method and "I'm also not against method Y" as 0.5 votes for that method, the current vote tally of supporters would look like this:

Method 1: 6.5 votes
Method 2: 4.5 votes

But in the end, it's up for you to decide, since both other Staff share your stance
I apologize for the trouble

 

[Noobish2006]

method 1 look best no?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Method 2 seems fine.

Method 1 has the implication that Layers and Potency are tied, which defeats the point of differentiating potency based on hax and layer-based hax.

Though if we can get confirmation that there are certain mechanisms involved that make potency not necessarily required. Method 1 works
but atm i cannot see it

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

For the second one ; Even though we do not know the exact difference, we know his EP before being absorbed and after being named.

we do know that Ifrit was Special A-rank when absorbed by Rimuru, meaning his EP at that point should have been at least around 100,000. After being named, his EP rose to a level higher than even Carrion’s who has 690,000 EP
This means that when he was released and not yet named, he was still within the Special A-rank range, whose upper EP limit is 400,000.
[Source]
Method-1
So, if we assume that the EP increase after each training was linear, then the energy increase per step is 100,000. This means you’d need 100,000 EP difference to resist Veldora’s aura that had erased the previous, weaker target.

Edit: So, this would grant layer of resistance to those who have equal EP to Ifrit will get 3 layers and those with 100,000 more EP than Ifrit will get +1 layers and so on.

Method-2
For those who disagree with the above method for any reason, we can use an alternative approach. By assuming that each step was not enough to fully resist Veldora’s aura (which isn’t actually true, Since the second instance explicitly states an increase in ability, which in turn increased the difficulty, we can assume that Ifrit was already able to handle Veldora’s aura by that point), we can instead use the EP gap between Ifrit’s pre-sealed and post-released states as the required difference needed to resist Veldora’s aura. Which would be 300,000 EP.

Edit: So layer to those who have equal amount of EP to Ifrit will get 1 layer and those who have 300,000 EP more than Ifrit will get +1 Layers and so on. It would also grant True Dragon haki layers of existence erasure and corresponding resistances, since they are immune to their own haki.

---

Istg this wasn't there when I first commented on this CRT
(Maybe it got added later?)

Anyways I agree with method 1. The essence of "Ifrit resisted Veldora's aura" is because his EP increased, which is true as increasing So does increase one's layers, as EP takes into consideration the resistances of a target directly. That means increase in EP (existence points) = natural increase in resistance

To Zarario, keeping an opponent pinned down via conversation was preferable to forcing some action and getting hurt. His enemy wasn’t only Leon—Soei, that troublesome ambusher, was there, too. He had a knack for attacking Zarario right when it’d annoy him the most. Lower-ranked or not, Zarario couldn’t let his guard down around him.

One’s existence point score—a calculation based on the elements of your body structure, the amount of energy, your resistances, and many other factors—was still, after all, only a rough estimate. If two mismatched fighters were brought together, the match could turn out to be a toss-up—just like how Jahil, a powerhouse, just couldn’t keep up with a speed specialist. V20C4

I'd like to ask the staff if this work in favor of Method 1 based on the above and this post.

Snip

And same to other users

Snip

 

[AlexSamDen]

Though if we can get confirmation that there are certain mechanisms involved that make potency not necessarily required. Method 1 works
but atm i cannot see it

If it helps, different concentrations of Auras in-verse do produce different effects
Demon Lord haki (massively inferior to the True Dragon one) normally only kills people. Same with True Dragon haki if you go really far enough

However, if you concentrate DL haki into something more dense it now directly does EE. Same with TD haki if you get closer

So in the specific case of auras in the verse, concentration results in a quality leap in ability and not a quantity one

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

And same to other users

Well, the follow-up sentence seems to disagree in someway though, saying
even if the EPs are mismatched. One can still somehow gain the upperhand in some way. like there is a form of rock, paper scissor to certain traits a person specializes in.
So someone with strong magic affinity would definitely have more resistance to haxes that those who are purely physical but has a bit more EP as an example

If it helps, different concentrations of Auras in-verse do produce different effects
Demon Lord haki (massively inferior to the True Dragon one) normally only kills people. Same with True Dragon haki if you go really far enough

However, if you concentrate DL haki into something more dense it now directly does EE. Same with TD haki if you get closer

So in the specific case of auras in the verse, concentration results in a quality leap in ability and not a quantity one

Concentrating on adding another different ability effect is not quality in the sense we are looking for
So I don't think this is sufficient. It simply shows that EP is flexible and malleable to be used differently in various ways

Though it being potency or layer doesn't really change anything, since in an actual match-up
We compare different ways of categorizing abilities, capability layers, or potency based on their effect.

It would be more accurate to say it has improved potency, thus having these extra effects, and having stronger resistance to it than arguing layers

 

[AlexSamDen]

Well, the follow-up sentence seems to disagree in someway though, saying
even if the EPs are mismatched. One can still somehow gain the upperhand in some way. like there is a form of rock, paper scissor to certain traits a person specializes in.
So someone with strong magic affinity would definitely have more resistance to haxes that those who are purely physical but has a bit more EP as an example

As outlined in this thread before, we don't argue and will never be arguing that increase in EP leads to an increase in all abilities, as this isn't true. EP just means the strength of a person's existence, a mass of brute force, if you'd like that explanation. Skills are just tools to put that brute force to actual use and they are the things that create specialty
In the example in the scan, if Jahil could hit even one attack, he would've won, but his dominance in brute force couldn't bridge the gap
The point made in the OP is that Ifrit gained more EP as a result of strengthening his existence and due to people of similar Existence Value (alt TL) possessing similar general characteristics, this is a general mechanic
This is a point about a very specific ability that has specified relation to Existence Value and nothing else

Concentrating on adding another different ability effect is not quality in the sense we are looking for
So I don't think this is sufficient. It simply shows that EP is flexible and malleable to be used differently in various ways

It seems you misunderstood me
They don't concentrate on anything, I was talking about concentration in a sense of density

Let me make an example to simplify:
Let the 2 types of haki's be vapor generators, the DL one releases X amount per second, the TD one 10X per second:

The general condition is that if any amount of vapor touches you - you die (Death Manip)

However, there is also another condition: if 3X of vapor touch you at once - you get your existence erased

So the TD Aura has high density of vapor around it, so if you get any close - you are erased. However, on outskirts, the density drops, so you just die, but are not erased

The DL Aura doesn't have enough density to erase you, even up close. However, you put a cap on top of it and wait for 10 seconds. Now 10X of vapor is gathered under the cap, so if you open it - you get hit with higher-density vapor and therefore get erased



I hope that helps to understand the mechanic better
Then we return to the previous point. The process Ifrit was going through was that he was first exposed to 3X of vapor. After some time, he now fully resists it because his existence has strengthened. And, reflecting that, his EV increased (please don't mix the cause and the effect. EV is just a measurement system). Then he was exposed to 6X, which now gives him the same effect as 3X did. And then repeat the process up to 9X
This would just normally be potency, but the verse has an extensive system on how auras work based on their density, with clearly defined jumps, rather than just a plain more = more

 

[Curcuma_x_curcuma]

I'll see where this all leads.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I'll see where this all leads.

Rn method 2 is universally agreed upon, so if Data chooses so, we will go with it.

I believe Jedi just misunderstood some points due to being unfamiliar with the work

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

When I said concentrate i meant to condense it into a stronger form, which you basically agreed with by saying you increase its density
also i never said it would increase in all abilities
But it develops an existing ability to become more potent.
Furthermore, an ability changing its effect is irrelevant whether something is layered or not (in this case death to EE)

What you also basically explained is once again increasing potency.

Layering should not be applied when an ability overpowers a resistance through magnitude or a quantitative threshold.

If a piece of fiction is unclear about whether an ability overcomes a resistance through magnitude or layering, we will by default assume it's by magnitude for abilities where that is continuous

So I ask again, why are you so convinced it is Layers rather than potency when examples point more towards potency and layers

And why are you so hyper-focused on it needing to be layered? rather than increasing potency.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Method 2 seems best to me.

Also yea stronger doesn't necessarily mean more layered.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Method 2 seems best to me.

Also yea stronger doesn't necessarily mean more layered.

Thank you!


Now as four staff members have agreed on Method 2, may I request that this be closed?