Tensura CRT: Possible Layers in Tensura

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Introduction
Hello everyone. First of all, Happy New Year! I hope this year is a positive and productive one for everyone here.
This is undoubtedly my biggest CRT so far and it is about Layers .

True Dragons can erase existence with their aura, but the fact is that their aura can be resisted by any A-rank or above,

albeit only to the extent that it is enough to kill normal humans or lower ranks.

The reason I said “only to the extent that it is enough to kill normal humans or lower ranks” because, just below this line, Ifrit (the first key), who is above A-rank, or rather Special A-rank, was unable to withstand Veldora’s aura and had been getting his existence erased. So we can say that Veldora was releasing his aura at a level greater than what A-rankers can handle.

Possible EE resistance Layers
So, as discussed, True Dragon aura can erase existence, and A-rank and above can normally withstand it, and Veldora was releasing his aura at a level greater than what Ifrit could handle.

Finally, after Ifrit’s magicules (energy) increased, or rather, after his existence became more powerful, causing his energy to rise, he was able to resist Veldora’s aura, which had previously been erasing him.

But here’s the catch: it didn’t stop there. This process was repeated at least three times to make Ifrit stronger.
 one:

Two:

Three:

So we can say that Ifrit, who was initially being erased by Veldora’s aura, became stronger as his magicule count increased and was then able to resist it. Great Sage subsequently increased the pressure even further, and this process was repeated multiple times.
Because of this, I think it is reasonable to argue for some form of layered resistance for characters who has an equal or greater energy count than Ifrit ,at least (the reasoning for excluding A-ranks is explained below).

Problems
However, there are some problems with this.

 First, there are instances where Veldora’s aura is only stated to cause death and leave corpses behind, which is a major anti-feat for existence erasure, though this applies only to those below A-rank.

“GA—HAHAHA! When that thing is installed, I can release my aura however I wish!”

As such, it is Veldora who announced these words without shame.

“No, you can’t, you idiot!! If you do that, most of the people in this country will die!”

I rebuke back with my genuine thoughts after hearing his shocking declaration .

Even Vesta’s smile faded as his face turned pale.

“That’s not a good idea indeed. We may still hold up, but it won’t be the same for the citizens in the town.”

“Even if he were to go somewhere else, Veldora-sama’s immense power would have the same effect no matter where he goes.”

Even Benimaru and Shuna’s expressions changed after hearing Veldora’s words.

Which is only natural.

Most people were not even able to approach him due to the magicule leakage when he was still sealed. Corpses would probably pile up in this nation if Veldora releases his aura without a care.

“No, but… I’ve been suppressing my aura all this time, it’s getting tiring…”

“Then endure a bit more.”

Veldora begins to find excuses, which I rejected on the spot.

Second, the exact amount by which Ifrit’s energy increased is unknown. So I have some suggestions

Solution
For the first point, there are a few possible interpretation.

Either we discard Rimuru’s statement due to the use of the word “probably,” which mean that even he was unsure, OR we take the amount of aura Veldora released to overwhelm Ifrit ,a Special A-rank monster, as the baseline for existence erasure, and says that lower amounts of aura only induce death.

Alternatively, we could remove existence erasure altogether and instead classify it as Conceptual Destruction (Type 1) and Information Destruction (Type 2), since Ifrit did not possess a physical body while inside Rimuru’s stomach, where these events took place, but I am not a fan of this one.

---

For the second one ; Even though we do not know the exact difference, we know his EP before being absorbed and after being named.

we do know that Ifrit was Special A-rank when absorbed by Rimuru, meaning his EP at that point should have been at least around 100,000. After being named, his EP rose to a level higher than even Carrion’s who has 690,000 EP

—

“Understood. I shall henceforth be known as ‘Charys.’ I pledge my loyalty to the servitude of the great Veldora-sama!”

Ifrit accepted her ‘name.’ At that instant, Raphael shutdown ‘Soul Corridor’ and cut off Veldora’s power.

It worked. Veldora successfully named Ifrit. The flame giant began to evolve—it was practically exploding with magicules, rapidly reaching the level of a demon lord-class. Ifrit not only surpassed Treyni-san, but seemed to have even surpassed Karion and Frey.

«Report. Greater spirit ‘Flame Giant Ifrit’ has evolved into ‘Flame Lord.’»

Raphael-san dutifully notified me.

A flame lord, you say?

This race was a spiritual life-form that gained a physical body through monsterfication—essentially, exposure to a massive amount of magicules.

“GAHAHAHA! Well done! I knew I could count on you, Rimuru.”

Veldora-san sounded particularly pleased, yet he frowned as soon as he saw Ifrit. Her appearance had greatly altered once again. Or rather, it was restored to its original form. Its hair was still the same pattern of black and red, but its body had reverted back to more masculine proportions. Although some changes remained, Ifrit’s will might have strongly influenced this physical transformation

This means that when he was released and not yet named, he was still within the Special A-rank range, whose upper EP limit is 400,000.
[Source]
Method-1
So, if we assume that the EP increase after each training was linear, then the energy increase per step is 100,000. This means you’d need 100,000 EP difference to resist Veldora’s aura that had erased the previous, weaker target.

Edit: So, this would grant layer of resistance to those who have equal EP to Ifrit will get 3 layers and those with 100,000 more EP than Ifrit will get +1 layers and so on.

Method-2
For those who disagree with the above method for any reason, we can use an alternative approach. By assuming that each step was not enough to fully resist Veldora’s aura (which isn’t actually true, Since the second instance explicitly states an increase in ability, which in turn increased the difficulty, we can assume that Ifrit was already able to handle Veldora’s aura by that point), we can instead use the EP gap between Ifrit’s pre-sealed and post-released states as the required difference needed to resist Veldora’s aura. Which would be 300,000 EP.

Edit: So layer to those who have equal amount of EP to Ifrit will get 1 layer and those who have 300,000 EP more than Ifrit will get +1 Layers and so on. It would also grant True Dragon haki layers of existence erasure and corresponding resistances, since they are immune to their own haki.

---

Thus, the CRT is complete, and this is my proposal. Though I am unsure whether it is sufficient to justify layers, I have at least made the attempt, and now I can only Pray.

---

Agree @SomebodyData (Agree with Method 2, but is fine with Method 1 if most people think it works better), @King Tempest( Same as @SomebodyData), @Elizhaa (Same as @SomebodyData )

Disagree:

I don’t care:

 

[PrimeHydra64]

It looks good on a glance, though I will come back later to thoroughly read through it (Since I am very hungover lol).

 

[Cipher72]

Alright just read the entire thing and it's rlly well made, I agree with a lot of these points. I agree with the removal of layered EE via upscaling from the Disintegration magic however I would like one thing to be noted.
TD's are generally resistant to magic or have been stated to be completely unaffected by Magic used by humans, although this might be attributed to the fact that Magic is bound by the laws of the world and you need Art to affect TD. So take this with a grain of salt. I am open to arguments about EE being Layered though. For now I will agree with the removal of that. (Also I can add scans but most of my scans are from Slime reader and I am unsure on whether those are accepted or not)

First, there are instances where Veldora’s aura is only stated to cause death and leave corpses behind, which is a major anti-feat for existence erasure, though this applies only to those below A-rank.

As for the whole corpse thing I personally think that haki loses potency with distance so the people that are closer to Veldora would get erased whereas the people that are further away would only die from magicule contamination. That's my two cents on that matter.

So, this would grant +1 layer to those who have 200,000 EP more than Ifrit.

I can also see this but I am leaning more towards the latter just to be safe.

So +1 layer to those who have 590,000 EP more than Ifrit. It would also grant True Dragon haki layers of existence erasure and corresponding resistances, since they are immune to their own haki.

You can put me in agreement with this.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Alright just read the entire thing and it's rlly well made, I agree with a lot of these points. I agree with the removal of layered EE via upscaling from the Disintegration magic however I would like one thing to be noted.
TD's are generally resistant to magic or have been stated to be completely unaffected by Magic used by humans, although this might be attributed to the fact that Magic is bound by the laws of the world and you need Art to affect TD. So take this with a grain of salt. I am open to arguments about EE being Layered though. For now I will agree with the removal of that. (Also I can add scans but most of my scans are from Slime reader and I am unsure on whether those are accepted or not)

We have permission to use Slime Reader, so feel free to proceed. As for magic, Disintegration falls under Ultimate Magic (this was mentioned somewhere, though I can’t recall the exact source). Nihility Magic is considered the counterpart of Disintegration.

As for the hold corpse thing I personally think that haki loses potency with distance so the people that are closer to Veldora would get erased whereas the people that are further away would only die from magicule contamination. That's my two cents on that matter.

This could make sense, considering that magic density decreases with distance, as seen for example in the labyrinth floors. However, more knowledgeable members may be able to provide a better and more detailed explanation.

I can also see this but I am leaning more towards the latter just to be safe.

Okay, tbh both of these are lowballs, considering that his EP after getting named is being used, even though this was supposed to be before he got named, when he should still be weaker than a Demon Lord Seed.

 

[Cipher72]

We have permission to use Slime Reader, so feel free to proceed

Noted
Alright so these are the feats I am talking about. I will cite the important stuff.

Disintegration falls under Ultimate Magic (this was mentioned somewhere, though I can’t recall the exact source). Nihility Magic is considered the counterpart of Disintegration.

I do remember something along those lines so I will agree but my memory is also vague. Anyways

Spoiler: V15 Velgrynd vs Primordial Trio

“It’s rude to call His Lordship a slime,” Carrera roared indignantly and unleashed her magic.
She opened with her trump card, ‘Gravity Collapse,’ right out of the gate. The scale was
reduced in size as much as possible, thus increasing the intensity. The strongest attack that
Carrera could currently muster hit Velgrynd, who was focused on Testarossa.
Velgrynd was enveloped in a jet-black pillar that seemed to connect heaven and earth. The
circular pillar, which was only big enough to hold a single person, was like a prison from which
there was no escape.
However…
Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.
“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long
as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”

Spoiler: Carrera stating that “Magic itself doesn't work” she can use Nihility magic

“Hahaha! As expected of Veldora-sama’s sister, you’re making it seem like a joke. If
magic doesn’t work, then there’s nothing more I can do, huh? No! I have a sword technique I’m
learning from Agera. It may be useless, but I’ll give it a try!”
Carrera seemed to be enjoying herself, even though her best move had just been defeated.
Without any sign of distress, she raised the sword she had created with magic. The beautiful
sword had a fierce presence that was unbecoming of a demon. Carrera’s magical energy flowed
directly into the blade, giving it a radiant glow.
“This is most likely our only choice. It is not simple magic nor Skill, but a technique
you have developed and improved yourself. It may work even against the True Dragons, the
source of the world. Veldora-sama says that a woman named Hinata has proven this approach
effective.”

Spoiler: V14 Rimuru doubts that Magic is useful against TD

What I was interested in was the name ‘Velgrynd.’ The name ‘Velgrynd,’ could it be—
“What a surprise. I didn’t know that White Primordial Blanc—No, Testarossa-dono had so
much respect for the ‘Scorch Dragon’ who lives in the ‘burning mountain of the gods.”’
Testarossa smiled as if to say, ‘What was that?’ and Minits hastened to change his words.
This convinced me of Velgrynd’s true identity. She is one of only four True Dragons in this
world, and the sister of Veldora. The ruler of the ‘scorch’ and the hidden gem of the Empire…
“’Respect’ is not the word I would use. My relationship with the True Dragons was some-
what complicated. However, since our lord Rimuru-sama and Veldora-sama are allies, it is only
natural that I should pay my respects to Veldora-sama’s sister as well, isn’t it?”
In other words, if it weren’t for the relationship between me and Veldora, Testarossa would
never have paid any respects to the ‘True Dragons,’ right?
“Does that mean that Testarossa was quiet because she couldn’t win against Velgrynd? Even
so, can’t you beat Guy?”
“If you have to decide whether you can win or not, you cannot win. Not mentioning Guy,
it is impossible for me to win. It is not a question of strength or weakness, but the fact that the
‘True Dragons’ are an incomprehensible and indestructible existence.”
Just what is the ‘True Dragon’ race for Testarossa, the incarnation of ‘incomprehensible,’
to speak of them as being that way…
I could picture Veldora proudly laughing out loud, so I hoped she would never say this in
front of him.
“Yes, the ‘True Dragons’ are not even a threat to Guy, but it is impossible to destroy them,
right?”
“Well, I’m not sure. At least with magic, I don’t think so.”

And for the final important quote;

Spoiler: V7 Ruminas talking to Hinata about Veldora

While you may be able to take down Demon Lord Rimuru, but you can’t win against
Veldora—Luminas asserts.
“That’s right, Hinata. That evil dragon is truly powerful. He is the real Rank-Catastrophe
threat.”
With his many years of experience, Louis agrees with Luminas.
“Is he really that strong? Wasn’t he sealed by the “Chosen Hero”?”
Since someone was able to seal him, Hinata believes she can do so as well. Yet, Luminas
and Louis reject her this without hesitation.
“Heed this, Hinata. He is the summation of natural energy. You can contain a frenzy storm
using magic, but unlike natural phenomenon, that evil dragon has a will of his own. You can’t
kill him with your sword or magic. In addition, that guy would go on a rampage if you did so,
sending shockwaves and highly destructive magic to shatter the earth.”

Now albeit this is true that it's in respect to Hinata but Hinata can still use Disintegration moreover considering In prior loops Ruminas couldn't affect Veldora with Disintegration I think you can genuinely have an argument for TD's being resistant to Disintegration also this statement in particular

Looking at it this way, damaging him was out of the question. In fact, I was a little scared
now when I thought about the beating I just gave him… It was difficult to think of Veldora as so fragile as I had thought he would be difficult to defeat or even damage. A shot or two of
magic would not even scratch him and punching and kicking would be useless. Only by adding
the effects of an Ultimate Skill to the various attacks would I be able to do any real damage at
all. Even the most powerful holy magic, ‘Disintegration,’ could only do insignificant damage
to Veldora’s massive body.
This showed that the high durability of the True Dragon race was not a fluke.

Albeit emphasizes on size it also emphasized on durability as well so yea that's all. I am pretty much neutral on this just leaning towards OP because of the current Justification using Rimuru.

 

[Noobish2006]

people who are erased can't exacly be called alive

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Noted
Alright so these are the feats I am talking about. I will cite the important stuff.

I do remember something along those lines so I will agree but my memory is also vague.

okay

Anyways

Spoiler: V15 Velgrynd vs Primordial Trio

“It’s rude to call His Lordship a slime,” Carrera roared indignantly and unleashed her magic.
She opened with her trump card, ‘Gravity Collapse,’ right out of the gate. The scale was
reduced in size as much as possible, thus increasing the intensity. The strongest attack that
Carrera could currently muster hit Velgrynd, who was focused on Testarossa.
Velgrynd was enveloped in a jet-black pillar that seemed to connect heaven and earth. The
circular pillar, which was only big enough to hold a single person, was like a prison from which
there was no escape.
However…
Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.
“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long
as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”

This one scan isn't needed btw.

Spoiler: Carrera stating that “Magic itself doesn't work” she can use Nihility magic

“Hahaha! As expected of Veldora-sama’s sister, you’re making it seem like a joke. If
magic doesn’t work, then there’s nothing more I can do, huh? No! I have a sword technique I’m
learning from Agera. It may be useless, but I’ll give it a try!”
Carrera seemed to be enjoying herself, even though her best move had just been defeated.
Without any sign of distress, she raised the sword she had created with magic. The beautiful
sword had a fierce presence that was unbecoming of a demon. Carrera’s magical energy flowed
directly into the blade, giving it a radiant glow.
“This is most likely our only choice. It is not simple magic nor Skill, but a technique
you have developed and improved yourself. It may work even against the True Dragons, the
source of the world. Veldora-sama says that a woman named Hinata has proven this approach
effective.”

This statement comes from Carrera during the fight with Velgrynd, and I’m pretty sure she said it because magic did not work on Velgrynd. Generalizing it to all magic, especially Disintegration, which she herself cannot use, w would not be so correct but....

Spoiler: V14 Rimuru doubts that Magic is useful against TD

What I was interested in was the name ‘Velgrynd.’ The name ‘Velgrynd,’ could it be—
“What a surprise. I didn’t know that White Primordial Blanc—No, Testarossa-dono had so
much respect for the ‘Scorch Dragon’ who lives in the ‘burning mountain of the gods.”’
Testarossa smiled as if to say, ‘What was that?’ and Minits hastened to change his words.
This convinced me of Velgrynd’s true identity. She is one of only four True Dragons in this
world, and the sister of Veldora. The ruler of the ‘scorch’ and the hidden gem of the Empire…
“’Respect’ is not the word I would use. My relationship with the True Dragons was some-
what complicated. However, since our lord Rimuru-sama and Veldora-sama are allies, it is only
natural that I should pay my respects to Veldora-sama’s sister as well, isn’t it?”
In other words, if it weren’t for the relationship between me and Veldora, Testarossa would
never have paid any respects to the ‘True Dragons,’ right?
“Does that mean that Testarossa was quiet because she couldn’t win against Velgrynd? Even
so, can’t you beat Guy?”
“If you have to decide whether you can win or not, you cannot win. Not mentioning Guy,
it is impossible for me to win. It is not a question of strength or weakness, but the fact that the
‘True Dragons’ are an incomprehensible and indestructible existence.”
Just what is the ‘True Dragon’ race for Testarossa, the incarnation of ‘incomprehensible,’
to speak of them as being that way…
I could picture Veldora proudly laughing out loud, so I hoped she would never say this in
front of him.
“Yes, the ‘True Dragons’ are not even a threat to Guy, but it is impossible to destroy them,
right?”
“Well, I’m not sure. At least with magic, I don’t think so.”

And for the final important quote;

Spoiler: V7 Ruminas talking to Hinata about Veldora

While you may be able to take down Demon Lord Rimuru, but you can’t win against
Veldora—Luminas asserts.
“That’s right, Hinata. That evil dragon is truly powerful. He is the real Rank-Catastrophe
threat.”
With his many years of experience, Louis agrees with Luminas.
“Is he really that strong? Wasn’t he sealed by the “Chosen Hero”?”
Since someone was able to seal him, Hinata believes she can do so as well. Yet, Luminas
and Louis reject her this without hesitation.
“Heed this, Hinata. He is the summation of natural energy. You can contain a frenzy storm
using magic, but unlike natural phenomenon, that evil dragon has a will of his own. You can’t
kill him with your sword or magic. In addition, that guy would go on a rampage if you did so,
sending shockwaves and highly destructive magic to shatter the earth.”

Now albeit this is true that it's in respect to Hinata but Hinata can still use Disintegration moreover considering In prior loops Ruminas couldn't affect Veldora with Disintegration I think you can genuinely have an argument for TD's being resistant to Disintegration also this statement in particular

Albeit emphasizes on size it also emphasized on durability as well so yea that's all. I am pretty much neutral on this just leaning towards OP because of the current Justification using Rimuru.

For this point, I can agree, though to correct you, Hinata cannot use Sanctuary Disintegration. And now that I think about it, It can work:
Normal Disintegration is too limited in size to be effective against True Dragons who has sucha Massive size and their durability is also something else, but the statement I linked was referring to a maximized Disintegration.

“Now perish. ‘Sanctuary Disintegration ’!!”
Filled with the deadly intent to kill, it was the crystallization of the prayers of the people of the Holy City—that would have sounded good, but in reality, this was the product of Demon Lord Luminas’s ability, ‘The secret of faith and grace,’ which had caused a limit break in the computational domain and gathered the sacred power of the congregation. The greater the number of believers, the greater the power that could be gathered. It took some time, but it was well worth it. The fact that the most powerful anti-personnel magic could be increased in range was an astonishing feat. With the strongest ‘Disintegration’ unleashed in this way, even a giant like Charybdis could be obliterated in an instant. Dagruel, who had been caught off guard, had nowhere to run and had to take a direct hit from ‘Sanctuary Disintegration.’
“Hmph, you let your guard down, Dagruel. Guys like you create an opening the moment you are sure of your victory.”
Dagruel had gotten more chances than she expected. Luminas was worried that Shion might have been killed if the “fight” had continued. No matter how powerful Dagruel was, a direct hit of ‘Disintegration’ would kill him. However, Dagruel’s defensive membrane of fighting aura was so thick that it was difficult to break through it. That is why she set up a maximized ‘Disintegration’ that could envelop Dagruel.
Luminas did not like the idea of hiding and watching, but she had no choice but to do so in order to win the war. Luminas had been observing the war situation for a long time, patiently waiting for the right moment to make a move. That patience paid off, and she was rewarded with the best result.
“Don’t take this personally.”

So, Disintegration =True Dragons < Sanctuary Disintegration. What do you think?

 

[Noobish2006]

okay

This one scan isn't needed btw.

This statement comes from Carrera during the fight with Velgrynd, and I’m pretty sure she said it because magic did not work on Velgrynd. Generalizing it to all magic, especially Disintegration, which she herself cannot use, w would not be so correct but....




For this point, I can agree, though to correct you, Hinata cannot use Sanctuary Disintegration. And now that I think about it, It can work:
Normal Disintegration is too limited in size to be effective against True Dragons who has sucha Massive size and their durability is also something else, but the statement I linked was referring to a maximized Disintegration.

So, Disintegration < True Dragons < Sanctuary Disintegration. What do you think?

disintigration can hurt td tho, not gonna kill one but can hurt one
edit its cos of their size

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I'm sure that EP is more than just magical energy (magic, or something else), so I wouldn't combine them. Although its existence is mentioned . I'm not sure I understood correctly, but Ifrit's rearing process was at least 3 or 4 times. And I see that Ifrit gained more and more resistance each time. Wouldn't that be at least 3 layers of resistance? Also, when Ifrit emerged from Rimuru's stomach, it wasn't yet a Special Rank S (that happened when Veldora named it). So its EP must have been lower when it withstood Veldora's aura. So I disagree with methods 2 and 1. In my opinion, why did you rule out at least 3 or 4 layers of resistance?

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

I'm sure that EP is more than just magical energy (magic, or something else), so I wouldn't combine them. Although its existence is mentioned . I'm not sure I understood correctly, but Ifrit's rearing process was at least 3 or 4 times. And I see that Ifrit gained more and more resistance each time. Wouldn't that be at least 3 layers of resistance?

That would be determined later in a CRT, including how many layers each would receive.

Also, when Ifrit emerged from Rimuru's stomach, it wasn't yet a Special Rank S (that happened when Veldora named it). So its EP must have been lower when it withstood Veldora's aura. So I disagree with methods 2 and 1. In my opinion, why did you rule out at least 3 or 4 layers of resistance?

I know but we need........ yeah let me just edit it.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

@Cipher72

Wanted to ask if you are find with this

New Method

When Ifrit was freed from Rimuru’s stomach, he was not Demon Lord Seed level, even after being named.

This means he was still within the Special A-rank
range, the upper limit of S-A rank is 400,000 EP

Because I’m replacing the values, if you’re okay with it; otherwise, I’ll move it below the other two as a new method,

 

[Cipher72]

This statement comes from Carrera during the fight with Velgrynd, and I’m pretty sure she said it because magic did not work on Velgrynd. Generalizing it to all magic, especially Disintegration, which she herself cannot use, w would not be so correct but....

Well it's not all magic but rather Nihility magic, it's because of what you said previously that Disintegration ~ Nihility magic as both are of the ultimate class.

Disintegration falls under Ultimate Magic (this was mentioned somewhere, though I can’t recall the exact source). Nihility Magic is considered the counterpart of Disintegration.

So, Disintegration =True Dragons < Sanctuary Disintegration. What do you think?

That makes a lot more sense and I am inclined to agree on that.

I'm sure that EP is more than just magical energy (magic, or something else), so I wouldn't combine them

Iirc EP is everything as in a combination of literally everything as in magicule, physical etc

Spoiler: V16 EP

Alpha regained his composure when Treyni rushed him.
“The first one has an existence value of over three million. The next five have been mea-
sured at between 400,000 and 700,000 each.”
Alpha’s statement succeeded in freezing the Control Room. It was the hidden purpose of
the labyrinth to quantify the ‘level’ of lifeforms and construct relevant databases. The main idea
was to help with crisis management by accumulating the necessary information about the battles
within the maze as they were displayed on the screen. The numerical representation that was
common to the entire process was called the ‘existence value.’
It was a numerical value of magicule quantity and physical ability, plus the energy content
contained in the equipped armor, however, it was different from actual combat ability. Since it is
impossible to completely measure a person’s ability or level of skill, it should be considered only
as a reference, but it was still useful. If used properly, the operation was expected to strengthen
the defense of the labyrinth. For example, dispatching people of similar level to deal with an
enemy based on their existence value, or roughly guessing what level of combat skill the enemy
was based on their existence value. However, this system was still in the trial stage, and it was
difficult to say that we had accumulated enough data.

Fuse first hinted this in V13

Spoiler: V13 Empire ranking system

If a person’s power was considered to be 1, the physical ability of a person who was desig-
nated as A rank was at least 10 or more.
For a greater majin, it was close to 100.
An archdemon had a record of 140.
If one was a demon lord, they must be at least 300.
True dragons were unmeasurable, but they were estimated to be over 1000.
And now, Calgurio realized that his power exceeded 1000.
This was a world where only those who have awakened to sainthood could reach. Moreover,
Calgurio was clad in a mythical-grade armor that contained energy comparable to his own

And here's Fuse's own explanation

Spoiler: Fuse replacing the Claymam system

In this volume, I’ve finally implemented the forbidden quantification of combat power. I
wanted to do it earlier, but I-san, the editor in charge, was adamantly against it. I could under-
stand I-san’s point of view, so I tried to keep it out until now… But I thought it was unreasonable
to use Clayman-san as a guideline. Alas, Clayman-san did his best. He was used along with
Gelmud-san and Karion-san to explain the power levels of the story. Even though he has left,
his name appeared quite a few times.
But by now, that scale has reached its limit. Even if I say, “a hundred Claymans,” it doesn’t
convey the difference at all. Good work! And so, the number of Clayman’s appearances will be
drastically reduced. The existence value, which has been adopted this time, also appears as an
EP in the web version. It is called “EXISTENCE POINT” in the story, but it is actually energy
points. So, please be aware that it is not directly related to combat power, but it can be helpful.

I still prefer the Claymam system though because EP isn't everything as a matter of fact there's a very popular trend where people with lower ep are somehow beating people with more EP lol.

 

[Cipher72]

@Cipher72

Wanted to ask if you are find with this

Because I’m replacing the values, if you’re okay with it; otherwise, I’ll move it below the other two as a new method,

Sure I don't rlly mind.

 

[Mido02]

I still prefer the Claymam system though because EP isn't everything as a matter of fact there's a very popular trend where people with lower ep are somehow beating people with more EP lol.

" How many clayman do I need to become true dragon level " system

 

[Cipher72]

" How many clayman do I need to become true dragon level " system

At least 5

 

[Impartial_Euler]

Don't know if my word counts for anything but I have to ask, has it been established that sufficient magicule/EP increase can cause layering to abilities? If not, this may result in a future downgrade when it's accepted.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Don't know if my word counts for anything but I have to ask, has it been established that sufficient magicule/EP increase can cause layering to abilities? If not, this may result in a future downgrade when it's accepted.

It doesn't lead to an automatic increase in abilities and it will never be such. This is a very specific case with a very specific ability

 

[Berga14]

I disagree with the downgrade part. Rimuru barrier can resist disintegration but not td full aura. That is a layer via the barrier.
I don't really take part in crt about layers but as far as i know having a layer via a barrier is okay.

neutral on the rest but rimuru barrier is far above A class so maybe:
Td aura for A class < disintegration < full td aura

 

[Impartial_Euler]

It doesn't lead to an automatic increase in abilities and it will never be such. This is a very specific case with a very specific ability

Not arguing against layers completely just the ones gained using the premises of ifrit and veldora. I don't see anything that suggests it isn't just a matter of potency, especially when veldora isn't trying to eliminate ifrit.
Something along the lines of veldora increasing the potency every time ifrit grows strong enough to not be instantly erased.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Introduction
Hello everyone. First of all, Happy New Year! I hope this year is a positive and productive one for everyone here.
This is undoubtedly my biggest CRT so far and it is about Layers . However, before getting into that:

downgrade
Currently, True Dragons haki have one layer of Existence Erasure (EE) due to its ability to erase Rimuru , who has resisted Disintegration. However, this reasoning is just wrong.There are  two main issues with this.

disagree with this for the reasons below:

First , Rimuru’s resistance to Disintegration stem from blocking the attack using Uriel’s Absolute Defense. This defense prevents spiritrons, the particles responsible for erasing the target, from ever reaching his body.

The barrier is always active, passively, so in that instance Veldora's aura was said to be able to erase Rimuru despite his barrier (Uriel). I think this is likely because of Veldora's nature as storm, destruction and annihilation (which also messes with probability) since even earlier the same volume, Uriel could block velgrynd's strongest attack but not Veldora's.

At worst, we'll need to put the layered EE only on Veldora (and Veldanava for obv reasons)

Second, Disintegration is implied, and in some instances explicitly stated, to be capable of erasing True Dragons, despite their immunity to their own Haki.

Veldora is safe due to his size.

True Dragons would have needed to be reborn.
That's why, it's illogical to scale the latter above to Disintegration. So, Disintegration would instead gain one layer.

I'm pretty sure this is just "as a spiritual lifeform", not "as a true dragon". Plus we see the likes of Dagruel resisting Disintegration fully in the latter volumes (Volume 20).

Edit: So @Cipher72 brought up a point here, and I mostly agree with it, especially the last part, for the reasons I mentioned at the end of my reply.
That said, the layering still needs to be removed, since we have no proof that True Dragon aura is superior to Disintegration.

Upgrade
So, coming back to the actual content: True Dragons can erase existence with their aura, but the fact is that their aura can be resisted by any A-rank or above,

albeit only to the extent that it is enough to kill normal humans or lower ranks.

The reason I said “only to the extent that it is enough to kill normal humans or lower ranks” because, just below this line, Ifrit (the first key), who is above A-rank, or rather Special A-rank, was unable to withstand Veldora’s aura and had been getting his existence erased. So we can say that Veldora was releasing his aura at a level greater than what A-rankers can handle.

Btw, this is a sealed veldora's aura, not an unsealed one, so we could get another layer for the unsealed version (?)

Possible EE resistance Layers
So, as discussed, True Dragon aura can erase existence, and A-rank and above can normally withstand it, and Veldora was releasing his aura at a level greater than what Ifrit could handle.

Finally, after Ifrit’s magicules (energy) increased, or rather, after his existence became more powerful, causing his energy to rise, he was able to resist Veldora’s aura, which had previously been erasing him.

But here’s the catch: it didn’t stop there. This process was repeated at least three times to make Ifrit stronger.
 one:

Two:

Three:

So we can say that Ifrit, who was initially being erased by Veldora’s aura, became stronger as his magicule count increased and was then able to resist it. Great Sage subsequently increased the pressure even further, and this process was repeated multiple times.
Because of this, I think it is reasonable to argue for some form of layered resistance for characters who has an equal or greater energy count than Ifrit ,at least (the reasoning for excluding A-ranks is explained below).

This seems fine. On that note, this could also mean that Veldora wasn't unleasing the full extent of his (sealed version) aura initially, but that was enough to erase ifrit (baseline)
Ifrit got stronger and resists it (baseline resistance)
Great sage raised the level (layered EE)

and the amount of layers is proportional to the amount of times GS raised the level.

Problems
However, there are some problems with this.

 First, there are instances where Veldora’s aura is only stated to cause death and leave corpses behind, which is a major anti-feat for existence erasure, though this applies only to those below A-rank.

I think this applies to "those in the far vicinity" since we have several statements that it could create a wasteland. Or it could be that he's not releasing it in a concentrated way so to not cause EE

Second, the exact amount by which Ifrit’s energy increased is unknown. So I have some suggestions

Solution
For the first point, there are a few possible interpretation.

Either we discard Rimuru’s statement due to the use of the word “probably,” which mean that even he was unsure, OR we take the amount of aura Veldora released to overwhelm Ifrit ,a Special A-rank monster, as the baseline for existence erasure, and says that lower amounts of aura only induce death.

I think the latter works, since we were given visual details of what it looks like for the first one.
Though, still, that was rimuru's imagination (perspective), and as we all know, he likes to underestimate or overestimate a LOT of things.

Alternatively, we could remove existence erasure altogether and instead classify it as Conceptual Destruction (Type 1) and Information Destruction (Type 2), since Ifrit did not possess a physical body while inside Rimuru’s stomach, where these events took place, but I am not a fan of this one.

I'd say I share the same opinion as you here

 

[Lycoris4812]

Bros back, finally.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bros back, finally.

Just using another device rn to check on here
I'll take a few more hours to maybe a day to come via my own discord acc

 

[Lycoris4812]

Just using another device rn to check on here
I'll take a few more hours to maybe a day to come via my own discord acc

Why, what happened? Is it true you got engaged?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why, what happened? Is it true you got engaged?

I'll remain silent on this
Now let's move on to the thread

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

disagree with this for the reasons below:

The barrier is always active, passively, so in that instance Veldora's aura was said to be able to erase Rimuru despite his barrier (Uriel). I think this is likely because of Veldora's nature as storm, destruction and annihilation (which also messes with probability) since even earlier the same volume, Uriel could block velgrynd's strongest attack but not Veldora's.

Maybe, yeah, but I don’t know whether a barrier counts or not. I even made a Q&A about it, but got zero replies. So yeah, I agree then.

At worst, we'll need to put the layered EE only on Veldora (and Veldanava for obv reasons)

I'm pretty sure this is just "as a spiritual lifeform", not "as a true dragon". Plus we see the likes of Dagruel resisting Disintegration fully in the latter volumes (Volume 20).

I know that .

Btw, this is a sealed veldora's aura, not an unsealed one, so we could get another layer for the unsealed version (?)

This seems fine. On that note, this could also mean that Veldora wasn't unleasing the full extent of his (sealed version) aura initially, but that was enough to erase ifrit (baseline)
Ifrit got stronger and resists it (baseline resistance)
Great sage raised the level (layered EE)

I personally don’t think sealing or unsealing makes much of a difference, since in the end it’s still about amount.
Btw, heard you got engaged. Marriage when?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Maybe, yeah, but I don’t know whether a barrier counts or not. I even made a Q&A about it, but got zero replies. So yeah, I agree then.

If its passive/always active, then yeah

I know that .

Which means true dragons can resist disintegration if they actually use their aura to protect themselves (or are just not actively suppressing their aura).

I personally don’t think sealing or unsealing makes much of a difference, since in the end it’s still about amount.

I mean, Veldora got an Ultimate after unsealing, so I think it does.
Even when Veldora was sealed inside INS, his aura still leaked to an extent and caused B or A rank monsters to be born, so likely the opposite is also true (especially given the erasure statement about A ranks).

 

[DrunkMan04]

Bump

 

[AlexSamDen]

Bump

 

[SomebodyData]

I was asked to comment here, but it does seem like the debate is a bit lore-heavy and requires knowledge on the series.

Would it be alright if I return (I’ll watch the thread, but anyone can message me on my wall), once the debate is done? That way I’ll comment my support or disagreement after both sides have come to a conclusion.

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I would recommend that you delete the degradation and put it in another thread and let's concentrate on the layers, Since the title deals with layers of resistance .

 

[Cipher72]

I was asked to comment here, but it does seem like the debate is a bit lore-heavy and requires knowledge on the series.

Would it be alright if I return (I’ll watch the thread, but anyone can message me on my wall), once the debate is done? That way I’ll comment my support or disagreement after both sides have come to a conclusion.

Looks like the debating has mostly concluded and only some points are actively being discussed so you can weigh in on the ones that have been agreed upon ig if you want that is.

 

[SomebodyData]

Looks like the debating has mostly concluded and only some points are actively being discussed so you can weigh in on the ones that have been agreed upon ig if you want that is.

Ah I see, its a bit hard to tell what were the exact changes accepted now.

From what I understand of the comments, it seems like the downgrade portion of the OP has been disagreed upon. Whereas the more conservative method 2 of layered EE resistance has been agreed upon as well? Is that correct?

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Ah I see, its a bit hard to tell what were the exact changes accepted now.

From what I understand of the comments, it seems like the downgrade portion of the OP has been disagreed upon. Whereas the more conservative method 2 of layered EE resistance has been agreed upon as well? Is that correct?

Well, I’ve removed the downgrade part of the OP for now. As for the question, Chipper is kind of okay with Method 1, but he prefers Method 2 for better safety, while Astral is okay with Method 1. Since the others haven’t given their opinions yet on which method they agree with, it’s basically just up to you. I’m okay with whatever method you choose, based on the scans and what you think is possible.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Well, I’ve removed the downgrade part of the OP for now. As for the question, Chipper is kind of okay with Method 1, but he prefers Method 2 for better safety, while Astral is okay with Method 1. Since the others haven’t given their opinions yet on which method they agree with, it’s basically just up to you. I’m okay with whatever method you choose, based on the scans and what you think is possible.

I'm more in line with method 1. Method 2, while safer, has its own consistency problems, so I'm unwilling to agree to it

 

[Cipher72]

Chipper

If I had a cent for everytime someone called me that I would have 5 which isn't a lot but also weird.

From what I understand of the comments, it seems like the downgrade portion of the OP has been disagreed upon.

I agree with the downgrade as proposed in the OP because of the logic being used but I don't agree with the concept of the downgrade, essentially I want the justification to be changed it's irrelevant now that OP has removed that and yea what he said.

okay with Method 1, but he prefers Method 2 for better safety,

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmm, well I’m usually more conservative when it comes to these topics so I’ll stick with method 2 (especially when it comes to adding layers of resistance); that said, if it does bring about consistency issues - and more people think method 1 works better, I wouldn’t have an issue there.

 

[KingTempest]

Hmm, well I’m usually more conservative when it comes to these topics so I’ll stick with method 2 (especially when it comes to adding layers of resistance); that said, if it does bring about consistency issues - and more people think method 1 works better, I wouldn’t have an issue there.

Same

 

[AlexSamDen]

Snip

Hello, sorry for bothering you, but can you please tag some staff members here? Namely @LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus?

I tried reaching out to different staff on their walls for quite the time, but only you and @KingTempest responded

My request and the urgency of it are further amplified by the closure of that Tier 2 Staff Thread you reviewed just recently, as it will require a follow-up implementation CRT and we need to make space for it

 

[SomebodyData]

Hello, sorry for bothering you, but can you please tag some staff members here? Namely @LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus?

I tried reaching out to different staff on their walls for quite the time, but only you and @KingTempest responded

My request and the urgency of it are further amplified by the closure of that Tier 2 Staff Thread you reviewed just recently, as it will require an follow-up implementation CRT and we need to make space for it

@LephyrTheRevanchist,
@Elizhaa, and @Celestial_Pegasus are any of y'all willing to help out?

 

[K'rimuru]

I completely agree

Both methods suit me, with a preference for the first one.