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Sword Art Online (Post-Aincrad) Kirito Power Downgrade

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DMUA

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He's aware of this, if he comments at any point is up to him
 
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The Night Sky Sword doesn't even have telekinesis as one of it's abilities
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🤷‍♂️
 

DMUA

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"Ten thousand dots"

This doesn't really imply he's moving the wholesale stars as opposed to just balls of luminous elements.

As per actually valid discussions...

Even if Kirito's stats aren't stated to have actually reached the maximum, he should still scale to the Goddesses to some degree, considering he was able to fight Gabriel for a little bit (Though clearly not with an advantage, even before he transformed), and Star King would be way more powerful than that

I dunno, the more I think about it I'm pretty sure 7-B should be what high tiers should scale to, considering a random sword made from the wood of a tree out in the boonies is pretty unlikely to surpass the person adminstrating the entire known world or goddesses
 
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It's trait is to absorb spatial resources man, that is basic knowledge. You cannot take sentences out of context to make such claims... And also, the spatial resources were literally generated on the blanket anyways, so in this case, it's not even pulling the energy to itself...
 
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It means it's not literal aka it did not actually happen but we use it nonetheless as a possibly tier
I have everything covered in the original post. If you have a claim to make that contradicts that, you will actually need to make arguments. Not a "They are real stars though"

It is literally explained in the text that they are not stars. A star below the clouds would not show up as a glittering dot... This is basic stuff really.
 
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I have everything covered in the original post. If you have a claim to make that contradicts that, you will actually need to make arguments. Not a "They are real stars though"

It is literally explained in the text that they are not stars. A star below the clouds would not show up as a glittering dot... This is basic stuff really.
I mean... I know that the stars are described as prayers/hopes/wishes from the people of Underworld in the first place... Again. The feat is kinda weird. I mean... I'm fine with removing the War of Underworld Solar System level feat since it's extremely flowery. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Forgive me for using the Anime as a frame of reference (AGAIN), but what in 19 hells do you call this?

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It's called Incarnate Arms and is a recurring technique for multiple characters in Alicization. You can pull a sword that you have a bond with towards you from a nearby place. It is not an ability of the Night Sky Sword, it's one of the many incarnate techniques. It is very hard to classify a very specific act with as broad of a term as "telekinesis". That's like calling a simple ripple on the water that was created with a single water droplet a "tsunami".
 
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It's called Incarnate Arms and is a recurring technique for multiple characters in Alicization. You can pull a sword that you have a bond with towards you from a nearby place. It is not an ability of the Night Sky Sword, it's one of the many incarnate techniques. It is very hard to classify a very specific act with as broad of a term as "telekinesis". That's like calling a simple ripple on the water that was created with a single water droplet a "tsunami".
I knew that

I was just trying to patronise DMUA
 

Xmark12

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As for scaling, Star Queen Asuna also becomes 7-B via scaling to that feat and dealing critical damage to the Abyssal Horror. Subtilizer is also obviously affected by this, becoming 7-B in his final key.
 

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So have you more or less reached an agreement here, with an accepted calculation that you can scale from?
 

DMUA

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I want to wait until @Kaantantr states his opinion on it

If he has one in particular, at least, otherwise I think we're mostly good to go
 
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Uhmmm, on what exactly am I to state my opinion on? I checked the personal sandbox page but I am not exactly sure what I should be looking for. All the categories and stuff, that's more your specialty. I can only check if an assumption has any basis in the series or not ^^'
 

DMUA

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Ah,

Right now the idea is scaling the Night Sky Sword to the high tier characters like the Goddesses, considering that a random sword made from a tree probably wouldn't be significantly more potent than them (at least, without also absorbing Incarnation in the process)
 
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There are key differences between a Divine Weapon (a weapon that possesses Memory Abilities) to the weapons of the Super Accounts. The Super Accounts have max tier weapons alright with native abilities as well, however those weapons do not possess Memory Abilities. Those weapons were simply generated out of nothing, thus they do not possess what is a "Memory of the Sword", a past existence/life to draw power from.
 

DMUA

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Yeah, but would that necessarily mean they're completely incomparable in power?
 
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It's not that they are completely incomparable, but there is a decision to be made. If you ask for an average, a Divine Weapon could be considered on the same level, but they just work on completely different levels.

When a traditional swordfight takes place, a Super Account weapon will likely triumph.

When a Memory Ability is used, the Super Account weapon will likely not be able to compete/block. But on the other side, using a Memory Ability also hurts the durability of the weapon using it as it's being unleashed etc.
 

DMUA

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Yeah, that's sorta what I'd figure.

I think that covers about everything we need to, save for Sub-Rel speed.

You mentioned that the next best if scaling to Mechadragons in terms of combat was invalid would have been a bullet blocking feat, right?
 
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From a combat perspective, yeah. Considering magic projectile blocking in ALO is mentioned to be much easier to do by Kirito himself.
 

Xmark12

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So what else needs to be done here? The stats are as such:
  • WoU/EoA/SK Kirito: City level with Incarnation and the Night Sky Sword's Release Recollection (calc'd and should be somewhat comparable to Gabriel's own Incarnation)
  • Goddesses and Administrator: Town level with Super Account Powers or Sacred Arts in Administrator's case (calc'd and scaling from Asuna's Super Account power feat)
  • EoA/SQ Asuna: City level with Incarnation and Super Account Powers (or just Super Account powers at the bare minimum; comparable to SK Kirito; majorly damaged the Abyssal Horror)
  • Gabriel: City level with Incarnation (Tanked most of Kirito's Starburst Stream while empowered by the hopes and dreams of everyone; lobbed off Kirito's arm)
I guess the speed of the EoA characters has to be determined too, but Sub-Rel is abouuuuut what we got so far.

Also for the love of God remove Nigh-Omnipotent from SK Kirito, SQ Asuna, and Administrator's profiles. They're not Nigh-Omnipotent, they don't know everything or know nearly everything.
 
Also for the love of God remove Nigh-Omnipotent from SK Kirito, SQ Asuna, and Administrator's profiles. They're not Nigh-Omnipotent, they don't know everything or know nearly everything.
It's Nigh-Omniscience, not Nigh-Omnipotent, but it still needs to be removed.

Also remove the likely universal range for Kirito since it has been established that the underworld is not universe in size.
 
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  • EoA/SQ Asuna: City level with Incarnation and Super Account Powers (or just Super Account powers at the bare minimum; comparable to SK Kirito; majorly damaged the Abyssal Horror)
There is no reason to assume Stacia is any more powerful at the end than she was before. She already had max stats as a Super Account, so she remains at the same power.

  • Gabriel: City level with Incarnation (Tanked most of Kirito's Starburst Stream while empowered by the hopes and dreams of everyone; lobbed off Kirito's arm)
Gabriel only tanked the physical portions of the attack. It's the final hit that delivers the mnemonic data stream to his brain, utilizing the drained spatial resources.
I guess the speed of the EoA characters has to be determined too, but Sub-Rel is abouuuuut what we got so far.
There is no way to determine it at the moment really. The range is "Slower than a transport jet, faster than a normal dragon" which is incredibly large of a range.
 

Xmark12

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There is no reason to assume Stacia is any more powerful at the end than she was before. She already had max stats as a Super Account, so she remains at the same power.

Am mostly scaling from the Abyssal Horror, as it took hits from EoA Kirito, but got majorly damaged by Stacia.

Unless we consider EoA Kirito to not be on the same level of power as he was back in WoU, which would honestly make sense considering you said that in all subsequent dives, Kirito wasn't connected to the root of Incarnation like he was during WoU.

That would mean we'd truly gotta separate EoA and SK into different keys.

Gabriel only tanked the physical portions of the attack. It's the final hit that delivers the mnemonic data stream to his brain, utilizing the drained spatial resources.

What tier would be satisfactory for Gabriel then? Pretty sure he'd be higher than Wall level, considering Starbrust Stream's showings, esp in the anime where it's shown that the air pressure alone cut through land.

There is no way to determine it at the moment really. The range is "Slower than a transport jet, faster than a normal dragon" which is incredibly large of a range.

Leave it as Unknown for now before we get some solid feats? Or at least calc Kirito's flight speed since that seems decently solid.
 
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Unless we consider EoA Kirito to not be on the same level of power as he was back in WoU, which would honestly make sense considering you said that in all subsequent dives, Kirito wasn't connected to the root of Incarnation like he was during WoU.

That would mean we'd truly gotta separate EoA and SK into different keys.
That is correct, however the reason I never properly recommended this is because we never really got enough screentime in the novels to make a properly documented distinction between the two. We know they are supposed to be different, but we are never shown in specific ways as to how they are different. The biggest difference I can provide given the currently available content is that in WoU, when Kirito picks up Asuna to fly off, he already knows the exact location of Alice and Gabriel due to being connected to the Main Visualizer, whereas he does not possess such an ability later in Unital Ring.
What tier would be satisfactory for Gabriel then? Pretty sure he'd be higher than Wall level, considering Starbrust Stream's showings, esp in the anime where it's shown that the air pressure alone cut through land.
Tiers are your specialty. I'm just trying to clarify things so you can pick a tier as accurate as possible. And as explained earlier, the Anime's depiction is not visually faithful, as they made the correct choice in following the novel and make their visuals in such ways to convey the intensity of the scene. As shown in the excerpts I have provided from the books, it's never about describing an actual situation, it's about describing the intensity of the moment. In written media, you achieve this with emotional and strong words. In a visual media, you achieve this via intense camera shakes and exaggerated visual depictions to focus on the energy of the moment.
Leave it as Unknown for now before we get some solid feats? Or at least calc Kirito's flight speed since that seems decently solid.
The calc is just an upper ceiling limit, not his actual flight speed. Seeing a lot of people thinking it states an actual speed, so maybe we should further change the description of the tier on Kirito's article to be more specific to highlight that it is "Unknown within the range of "Transport Vehicle - Normal Dragon".
 
The calc is just an upper ceiling limit, not his actual flight speed. Seeing a lot of people thinking it states an actual speed, so maybe we should further change the description of the tier on Kirito's article to be more specific to highlight that it is "Unknown within the range of "Transport Vehicle - Normal Dragon".
I think the speed should be an "At most Sub-Relativistic" or "Unknown; possibly Sub-Relativistic"

The "At most" would mean that it is the upper ceiling limit so that people will know that he can't possibly go any faster than that.
 
What tier would be satisfactory for Gabriel then? Pretty sure he'd be higher than Wall level, considering Starbrust Stream's showings, esp in the anime where it's shown that the air pressure alone cut through land.
He should at least be above his previous key which was town level. Or maybe just town level+
There is no reason to assume Stacia is any more powerful at the end than she was before. She already had max stats as a Super Account, so she remains at the same power.
Is it possible she got stronger through incarnation?
 
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Would it be a good idea to just make Alic/Star King just it’s own separate profile? Kirito has like, 6 bloody keys or something and half of it is just Alicization. Plus, everyone only comes to visit the profile JUST for that one key.
 
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Would it be a good idea to just make Alic/Star King just it’s own separate profile? Kirito has like, 6 bloody keys or something and half of it is just Alicization. Plus, everyone only comes to visit the profile JUST for that one key.
I don't think it'd be worth it. At the risk of sounding like I'm exerting nursery logic, Kirito is Kirito, and I think it's easier to associate this with his page.

Unless you're saying that Alicization treats him like Archie Sonic, which isn't really an argument when you consider that everything from Aincrad to WoU is canon for him.
 
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Would it be a good idea to just make Alic/Star King just it’s own separate profile? Kirito has like, 6 bloody keys or something and half of it is just Alicization. Plus, everyone only comes to visit the profile JUST for that one key.
I guess we can go with Kirito (Aincrad) | Kirito (Post-Aincrad/Pre-Alicization) | Kirito (Alicization)
 
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But things like GGO / ALO are a completely different tier and powerset, don’t think we can just group that into one key

(Also GGO is the best purely because they switch to the superior weapon: gun)
 

DMUA

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I remember it being talked about, then SomebodyData just said "Samus is all compressed into one key so nah"

frankly I don't really care as much, either way

On the topic of Sub-Rel, honestly I'd be fine just leaving it as is but it also implies that the Goddesses and Gabriel would scale, which feels a little bit easier

Not that they really have any anti-feats against it from my recollection, but

Honestly it may be better to just go for "At least Subsonic/Supersonic, possibly Sub Rel"
 
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There is no way to determine it at the moment really. The range is "Slower than a transport jet, faster than a normal dragon" which is incredibly large of a range.

I hold the opinion that being slower than someone isn't a feat. I'm slower than a spaceship, that doesn't mean I should be given "At least Average Human, possibly/at most Hypersonic".

Just index them based on the stuff they're as fast as/faster than.

For everyone else in the thread, there is no possibility that Kirito hits that speed, because we know he is slower.
 

DMUA

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I definitely wouldn't scale his travel speed, but in combat he should be comparable to the abyssal horror
 
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I mean, there is no reason for Abyssal Horror's combat speed to be high. Again, it uses Umbral Elements to attack and drains resources around. It's just another game monster.
 

Xmark12

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So for now, EoA Kirito should have Town level Release Recollection via scaling from Stacia's own terrain manipulation feats; both of whom are able to damage the Abyssal Horror, so.

As for speed, wasn't there a feat where Kirito crossed some kind of long distance quickly via flight? Like heading to the Dark Territory via flight really quickly while holding Ronye in Moon Cradle. Maybe we can even calc Kirito holding Asuna and heading to the World End Altar. Pretty sure it was when he was connected to the Main Visualizer, but he should at least be somewhat comparable to that, so "Subsonic normally, [Insert whatever speed the calc would yield] flight speed ([insert the calc here]. EoA Kirito would be slower than this, but still comparable)"
 
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Maybe we can even calc Kirito holding Asuna and heading to the World End Altar.
The problem is that a lot of people won't accept that because it's even before the 200 year period. Kirito carried Asuna to the World's End Altar in "over 5 minutes", which is a short distance on its own in the grand scheme of things. You'll hear the same complaint for the MC flight as well. It's somewhat justified of an argument, but it also completely blocks off any kind of actual speed feat to be featured which I find troublesome.
 

Xmark12

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The problem is that a lot of people won't accept that because it's even before the 200 year period. Kirito carried Asuna to the World's End Altar in "over 5 minutes", which is a short distance on its own in the grand scheme of things.

Then we can just put it in his WoU key. Honestly I think people would accept it. It's a feat and could still be used.

You'll hear the same complaint for the MC flight as well. It's somewhat justified of an argument, but it also completely blocks off any kind of actual speed feat to be featured which I find troublesome.

What do you mean by blocking off any kind of actual speed feat to be featured? If you're talking about any future speed feats, then the flight speed calc won't block off any feats. Essentially, if a speed feat in the future is faster, we'll just use that feat instead and have the original feat be supplementary. For now, I think it's okay to at least try calcing the speed feat and see if it can be used.
 
Is it possible that we can calc the speed of the normal dragons from where Bercouli and Vecta fought to the distance they traveled to reach to world's end altar?

If so we can have a lower limit to Kirito's speed since he's faster than a normal dragon.

The upper ceiling limit is currently Sub-Relativistic due to being slower than a transport vehicle but not knowing how much slower. (It's possible they're in the same tier just that their speed values are different)

If we can calculate the speed of the dragons it could be like this "Unknown; At least [Whatever speed the dragons are]; At most Sub-Relativistic"

The at least and at most would mean he is in-between those two tiers or faster than the former but slower than the latter.

It would also be a good indicator since the "at least" would mean that he can't be any slower and the "at most" would mean he can't be any faster.

I know that he is faster than a normal dragon but by how much is not clear. The same is also true for the transport vehicle. (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
 
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is this legit

When Kirito woke from his comatose state, he had used maximum-speed wind-element flight to chase after Emperor Vecta, who had abducted Alice. At the time, Asuna knew nothing about the geography of the Underworld, so it was only afterward that she understood how far he’d flown them. In fact, he’d flown a distance of more than six hundred miles in just five minutes, carrying Asuna in one arm. That would be nearly 7,500 per hour, ten times the speed of sound

SAO Volume 20, Moon's Cradle: Chapter 7.
 

Xmark12

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is this legit


When Kirito woke from his comatose state, he had used maximum-speed wind-element flight to chase after Emperor Vecta, who had abducted Alice. At the time, Asuna knew nothing about the geography of the Underworld, so it was only afterward that she understood how far he’d flown them. In fact, he’d flown a distance of more than six hundred miles in just five minutes, carrying Asuna in one arm. That would be nearly 7,500 per hour, ten times the speed of sound

SAO Volume 20, Moon's Cradle: Chapter 7.
Yeah, that sounds legit. Honestly can be used for WoU Kirito's flight speed, then maybe put "At least" for the EoA/SK key until we get better speed feats.
 
is this legit


When Kirito woke from his comatose state, he had used maximum-speed wind-element flight to chase after Emperor Vecta, who had abducted Alice. At the time, Asuna knew nothing about the geography of the Underworld, so it was only afterward that she understood how far he’d flown them. In fact, he’d flown a distance of more than six hundred miles in just five minutes, carrying Asuna in one arm. That would be nearly 7,500 per hour, ten times the speed of sound

SAO Volume 20, Moon's Cradle: Chapter 7.
Yeah I remember reading that. That can used to easier determine his speed so his speed would be hypersonic?
 
While I have to state it is explicitly mentioned as "over 5 minutes" in v18, this topic has nothing to do with the speeds, so I am going to ask the talk to be saved for another thread.
We'll have make another CRT for speed after this thread is over but it's for Kirito's WoU key this time. So I'll refrain from talking about speed on this thread from now on.
 
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Seriously? Are the profiles that messy?
With so many new information pop right now, i think we should also revise some of his power/hax section, for example his probability manip he have, the description for the ability could be from, again a mistranslation, leading to misunderstand the feat. well i mean some of hax like Freezing hax is fine, but higher hax i think we should revise them to have accurate information on his profile and SAO profile as whole. As i roaming among vs community like comicvine and spacebattle, i saw many of SAO debaters scream about our SAO profile especially Kirito's, and to be honest i think they did have some good point, so i think we should also revise Kirito hax, if everything currently he have is accurate then it fine, not like i want to remove his abilities because of others said about us.
 
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With so many new information pop right now, i think we should also revise some of his power/hax section, for example his probability manip he have, the description for the ability could be from, again a mistranslation, leading to misunderstand the feat. well i mean some of hax like Freezing hax is fine, but higher hax i think we should revise them to have accurate information on his profile and SAO profile as whole. As i roaming among vs community like comicvine and spacebattle, i saw many of SAO debaters scream about our SAO profile especially Kirito's, and to be honest i think they did have some good point, so i think we should also revise Kirito hax, if everything currently he have is accurate then it fine, not like i want to remove his abilities because of others said about us.
I mean that is fair, I just meant that im moreso surprised that the profiles could potentially have so much messy use of info on it.
 
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The current issues on the profiles (which there are many) are basically a lot of isolated paragraphs being presented here completely out of context and imagination filling the blanks.

Kirito has no hacks. Even the way the freezing of Blue Rose Sword is described here by some people makes me feel there is a massive misunderstanding of what it does, with people thinking it freezes below 0 degrees Kelvin or something against the Abyssal Horror, whereas it just traps things in physical ice, which plenty of powerful people can just break out of as the people are not frozen at all, they are just trapped in a chunk of ice.

But again, please do not derail thread with what is to be done etc. Iirc, we basically had come to a conclusion here a couple days ago. Let's finish it here, commit the changes and then we'll see what happens next after that.
 

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Are any editors who know what they are doing willing to apply what you have agreed about here?
 

Antvasima

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Thank you for helping out. Are the rest of you fine with if DMUA applies some agreed upon edits now?
 

DMUA

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Oh, yeah

Considering the Goddesses have maximized stats I should just compress the Star Queen and Stacia keys into one thing, right?
 

Xmark12

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Hmmm, but SQ has added immortality and a few other things, so probably just keep them separate but the same tier.

Maaaaaybe 7-B scaling to Kirito, since her meteor did critical damage to the Abyssal Horror.

Did we ever decide 7-B terrain manip for SQ Asuna?
 

Xmark12

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I think so
Aite, then 7-B terrain manip for EoA/SQ Asuna.

EoA Kirito will just have 7-B Release Recollection via the NSS, but SK will have both 7-B RR and Incarnation via being hooked onto the main visualizer.
 
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Mind you, "immortality" is just "pausing the aging process", it is not exactly an ability or something.
 

DMUA

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That is a power on this site

It's not widely usable but it would mess with age manipulation, for one thing
 
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They still can die if they live too long due to filled memory though. It's literally just a single stop of numbers. They even "died 30 years ago", which implies they just went into a sleep so they would not die.

That was what I was getting at. They are not "immortal", they just have an age stop on them.
 
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Again, stopping the "age stat" from going up does not actually stop their actual aging process. Age is not just a number in a system, they will still die of old age at some point because their brain ages whether they stop a meaningless system number or not.
Star King and Star Queen aged mentally for at least 200 years. That would be enough to qualify for Immortality (Type 1). Actually, this is Kirito we are talking about, not Kazuto. Star King and Star Queen should definitely have Immortality (Type 1).
 
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Again, stopping the "age stat" from going up does not actually stop their actual aging process. Age is not just a number in a system, they will still die of old age at some point because their brain ages whether they stop a meaningless system number or not.
the first I have heard of it, people might go insane over time but the function of the mind does not die.
 
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Star King and Star Queen aged mentally for at least 200 years. That would be enough to qualify for Immortality (Type 1). Actually, this is Kirito we are talking about, not Kazuto. Star King and Star Queen should definitely have Immortality (Type 1).
They aged mentally for no more than 170 years. And most of that time, it is implied they just slept to not accumulate strain.

Kirito is still very much limited by the constraints of Kazuto just the same. There are things you just cannot separate like that.

Again, it is a completely separate topic and I do not want to spend half an hour trying to refute irrelevant misconception
 
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They aged mentally for no more than 170 years. And most of that time, it is implied they just slept to not accumulate strain.

Kirito is still very much limited by the constraints of Kazuto just the same. There are things you just cannot separate like that.

Again, it is a completely separate topic and I do not want to spend half an hour trying to refute irrelevant misconception
Please read this at least. We can stop derailing after this.
 
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Just include Immortality (Type 1) and add a weakness that accumulating too many memories can cause them to die.

Someone using Age Manipulation to age them up wouldn't do anything, but experiencing too many things would.
 
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I think youa re misunderstanding. Yes, something like Kirito's musclature is irrelevant for his power in Underworld.

But you are missing the point where Kazuto's limitation literally carries over to Kirito in this case of memory limit.
Just include Immortality (Type 1) and add a weakness that accumulating too many memories can cause them to die.

Someone using Age Manipulation to age them up wouldn't do anything, but experiencing too many things would.
^ You're basically saying this? Gamerturk?
 
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