Superman vs Jin Mo-Ri

[Grudgeman1706]

Superman no longer has molecular destruction. Any superman voters want to change, based on this and my last comment?

Supermans heat vison at concentrated levels has molecular destruction. You can't debunk that with the evidence provided. However his disperse heat vison doesn't have molecular destruction of course( should not have assumed that, had my info wrong or mixed.) doesn't change still his heat vison is still much hotter than the sun could ever reach and would be able to disperse Jin mo rid clones.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Superman due to reasons above.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

...

Did you both miss the bit above where Jin is already 18 times stronger than Superman?

The high end of superman's compressed solar system calc places him at 13.515 X 10^ 36 tonnes in AP and Dura

Jin's strength with acupuncture places him as at least 2.47 X 10^38 tonnes in AP and Dura

His clones all have this level of power.

Superman's heat vision will not be able to disperese them

 

[Grudgeman1706]

...

Did you both miss the bit above where Jin is already stronger than Superman?

The high end of superman's compressed solar system calc places him at 13.515 X 10^ 36 tonnes

Jin's strength with acupuncture places him as at least 2.47 X 10^38 tonnes

I'm severely questioning your methods around god of high school, for example you failed to mention that hui mo ri had enormous help from safe robed Han dae wi. I will point out how hui no ri was in a dying state but that only warrants the at least symbol. However the result of 19 tenatons should be at least cut in half as a good half of that was on Han dae wi's part

Second Jin capable of fighting X52 phase 2 Satan is something I need to look at cause I'm not sure how he fought back(either with skill or used his ryu Jin and or yeoi to push back. Will probably find reason to scale but that only means monkey king Jin no ri is large star level.

You still haven't argued the fact superman had hax to counter Jin mo to with like phasing through his physical attacks( which he can do indefinitely as he used it to fight doomsday and mogul and his sister.) or even the fact that superman has the far superior stamina due to the fact he absorbs sunlight and recharges his powers, and worst comes to worst he can literally enter the sun and increase his strength ten fold and Jin will try to either fight him on the inside of the sun or superman will wait their and eventually Jin will enter to attack him. Either way superman will last the longest in the fight and had more ranged and area per attacks.

I like Jin and he will put up one hell of a fight but the winner is still superman in my book.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Han was failing to push back Jupiter until Hui helped so that calc still stands.

Jin can expand his staff inter stellar distances and continent sized widths, so the range and area advantage is pretty much nulled at this level.

Phasing isn't something superman does normally from the get go. And Jin is hardly going to let superman just stick his hand through his head to kill him.

And if Supermanis vibrating so much that energy attacks pass through him, so will sunlight so he won't be getting recharged while he's doing that, and the moment he stops, Jin and his clones will kill him. That's assuming they don't simply surround him from every angle and literally block out the sun with their sheer mass.

And Jin could just destroy the sun if he wanted

 

[Reppuzan]

@Grudgeman

We're aware of the fact that he needed help so we split the value accordingly in half.

Superman's feats are still significantly greater and Mo-Ri will eventually have to suffer the backlash of using his Limit Remover.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The fight will likely end before limit removal backlash happens.

And what of Superman's feats are greater? From the calcs done, Jin is 18 times stronger when he uses Na Bong Chim acupuncture?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Han was failing to push back Jupiter until Hui helped so that calc still stands.

Both literally work together to use their full power to help push back Jupiter. You can't assume just because one of them alone wasn't enough that Hui could have done it himself

Jin can expand his staff inter stellar distances and continent sized widths, so the range and area advantage is pretty much nulled at this level.

Supermans heat vision range is far wider and about the same in length to mo ris. The guy heat vision vaporized a whole planet versus continent diameter. Yah it ain't null not by a long shot.

Phasing isn't something superman does normally from the get go. And Jin is hardly going to let superman just stick his hand through his head to kill him.

He phases against foes equal or stronger than him(i.e. Mongol siblings and doomsday.) On weaker villains he's holding back on sure he won't think of using it, doesn't bother, but in a fight like this one he's for sure using it. You can't assume otherwise. In versus threads we use every ability a character has to their disposal.

And if Supermanis vibrating so much that energy attacks pass through him, so will sunlight so he won't be getting recharged while he's doing that, and the moment he stops, Jin and his clones will kill him. That's assuming they don't simply surround him from every angle and literally block out the sun with their sheer mass.

Okay now you are just over analyzing the ability itself, you do realize photons(light if you don't know) still hit atoms and superman is still very much recharging his solar cells even while intangibile m8. You won't be able to disprove this fact.

And Jin could literally just destroy the sun if he wanted.

Okay.... Not like he initially would, supermans powers increases the close he is too the sun, so him being in the core will dramatically be increasing all his stats exponentially and it will take a while before Jin realizes this, and by the time that happens superman will have already killed him either vaporizing him, labodomizing him(he still can do that you know), freeze breath, or just phase his fist into Jin mo ris skull(characters like flash has done so in the past, his intangibilty works the exact same way as superman so he could do the same) or just tear him apart with his new increased speed and strength.

You forget Jin mo ri has 5 minutes in this fight to beat superman and every second that passes in that sun superman grows stronger and faster and heals while Jin is losing time. Not to mention his clones also speed up the stamina consumption so no forgetting that.

5 minutes later superman will tear part de powered Jin if Jin mo ri survives long enough to do so.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Like Rep said. The AP values were split accordingly, so Hui is still 19 tenatons.


If photons, which are energy, can still hit Superman when he is intangible, so can other forms of energy, like for example a few hundred Endless Thunderbolts

If energy can't hit superman when he is intangible, neither can photons as they are a form of energy

This is basic logic, not overanalysis.

Superman won't know Jin is his superior until Jin or his clones have already hit him, at which point he'd be seriously shaken if not incapacitated. Not only is Jin physically stronger than Superman, he and his weapon are magic, which means they will at least partially bypass the bio-electric field that gives superman his durability.

And they start on earth to begin with.

And both range and aoe are nulled by the fact that they will be in melee combat distance

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Like Rep said. The AP values were split accordingly, so Hui is still 19 tenatons. If photons, which are energy, can still hit Superman when he is intangible, so can other forms of energy, like for example a few hundred Endless Thunderbolts


Endless thunderbolt is made up of likely plasma(same shit lighting is composed of.) and photons are the same size as

If energy can't hit superman when he is intangible, neither can photons as they are a form of energy This is logic, not overanalysis.

In real life this would be logic. But your forgetting dude this is fiction, laws of physics don't always add up with characters powers. Superman has been shown to dodge energy attacks while in the intangible(look up the thread for the evidence with Mongols fight.) and again he's still getting charged with sunlight, I don't k ow else how to explain how it works, take it up with the writers for making Supermans powers like that. But sorry he's still getting charged up and can be intangible to attacks too, end of story.

Superman won't know Jin is his superior until Jin or his clones have already hit him, at which point he'd be seriously shaken if not incapacitated. Not only is Jin physically stronger than Superman, he and his weapon are magic, which means they will at least partially bypass the bio-electric field that gives superman his durability.

The bio electric field around superman lessens damage to the many many types of attacks he faces but his Durabilty regardless of his bio elect field is still the exact same. He's tanked a magic bomb capable of damaging the likes of powerhouses similar to him in strength and dura, survived many battles with Captain marvel and black Adam(Completely magic based beings.) Magic isn't an actual definitive weakness. His, it's only notable for the reason he has no special resistance to the stuff. Like anyone else against magic.

and I don't know jins AP with the new reduction so you'll have to post that again with the half reduction in the 19 tenatons, if by the chance he's still stronger than superman by a little, the fight isn't going to be over in one hit so one punch so won't matter in the long run.

And they start on earth to begin with. Okay..... it's not like superman can Idk fly to the sun whenever he wants too if he's in a tight spot.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The King uses electromagnetic force control to divert Endless Thunderbolt, so it isn't plasma. In fact, as sunlight is simply a wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum, if superman can still be hit by sunlight when he is intangible, he can still be hit by endless thunderbolt. Also having energy run through your entire body damaging internal organs classifies as durability Negation , and the fact that it is magic lightning means it will go through the bio electric field...

There is no reduction. Reppuzan said above, they accounted for the fact that both Hui and Han were pushing when they gave them the AP value, so the calcs are still valid.

God damn stupid PIS authors making superman capable of surviving magic bombs when his established characteristic is that he has no more defense against it that an normal human... Regardless, 18 times stronger than Superman is enough for Jin to ram Ruyi Jingu through superman's chest and expand it, and we both know that is something he tries first thing in character.

Superman won't have a change to reach the sun, because Jin will have cloned himself and surrounded Superman before that even happens, and will be able to stop him from flying away

 

[Grudgeman1706]

The King uses electromagnetic force control to divert Endless Thunderbolt, so it isn't plasma. In fact, as sunlight is simply a wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum, if superman can still be hit by sunlight when he is intangible, he can still be hit by endless thunderbolt. Also having energy run through your entire body damaging internal organs classifies as durability Negation , and the fact that it is magic lightning means it will go through the bio electric field...

Okay listen you are still over analyzing the way Supermans intangibilty works, whether it's impossible on physics term for superman to do both at the same time, he does so regardless. And it's something you need to realize and live with. Second the Kings fundamental forces control the very bonds that hold sub atomic particles and atomic particles, naturally this includes plasma which is composed of neutrons my dude, so it being affected is possible being made of plasma.

Again pls pls stop making repeat myself it gets very annoying to re write this but I already provided a scan of energy attacks being phased through by superman in combat, endless lightning bolt won't be able to hit him if he is phasing through it.

There is no reduction. Reppuzan said above, they accounted for the fact that both Hui and Han were pushing when they gave them the AP value, so the calcs are still valid.

I will speak with reppuzan about this if I had too. TBH thst thread you made was one I had zero time,energy,and patience to analyze step by step completely so I sorta wen t with the flow on what you or reppuzan concluded with.


God damn stupid PIS authors making superman capable of surviving magic bombs when his established characteristic is that he has no more defense against it that an normal human... Regardless, 18 times stronger than Superman is enough for Jin to ram Ruyi Jingu through superman's chest and expand it, and we both know that is something he tries first thing in character.

its not that it's an established weaknesss, people who don't dwelve in the world of comics get a lot of myths mixed up from the characters. Believe me when I say I know a lot of superman die hard fans who raged on me when I used the magic is his weakness argument and they explained to me in enourmously great detail why that's complete bullshit.

Yes Jin mo ri is known for using ryui Jingu a lot as his fight but agian superman could block and endure the attack, not like everyone dies every single time they get hit by it, in fact superman could use this to his advantage as the fight would immediately be dragged into space where he's getting closer to the sun.


Superman won't have a change to reach the sun, because Jin will have cloned himself and surrounded Superman before that even happens, and will be able to stop him from flying away.

Once again, either superman heat visions all the clones out of his way, phases through whatever attacks they are throwing at him. Either way if he needs to get to that sun, he will get to that sun by any means necessary.

5 minutes is all Jin has in this fight, anymore and he literally dead when superman gets a hold of him. Meanwhile still getting charged up Boi with solar energy and this increases the close he gets to the sun.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Yo [here's proof of red sun superman easily capable of atomizing a satellite. And red son is a far weaker incarnation than post crisis, all the same powers, not the same strengths]

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The King explicitly uses "Electromagnetic force manipulation" to redirect endless thunderbolt, so that is what it is. You cannot use "oh its fiction so it works differently". If Superman can be hit by sunlight on the electromagnetic specturm when he is intangible, he can be hit by the magical lightning on the electromagnetic spectrum when he is intangible. Physical plasma energy like the stuff fired by mongol is different to magical Endless Thunderbolt, so Superman being able to phase through mongol's energy but not Jin's lightning isn't improbable either.. And please provide scans of Superman explicitly still absorbing sunlight when he is intangible, otherwise we are going to assume physics still works here.

You are also still assuming Superman will use intangibility first thing. He is fighting an unknown enemy. He's not going to assume its someone on par with him until that is proven, nor is he going to know what Jin can do and how to counter it. He'd likely do the thing he always does to a new enemy, assuming they aren't blowing up cities, and just try to tank Jin's attacks to intimidate him. So when Jin, who is 18 times stronger than Superman, rams RJ through his chest, expands it, and strikes him with a billion lightning bolts, as he tends to do, Superman isn't going to be intangible for it.

Every one of Jin's clones is his equal. Superman blasting his way through clones with heat vision will not work when Jin is 18 times stronger than Superman. Him becoming intangible for it might work, so I can accept that, excluding the above arguments I've made, but there is no gaurantee that is what he is going to do.

5 minutes won't matter. They are both moving at MFTL+ speeds, to them, five minutes might as well be an eternity.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yo [here's proof of red sun superman easily capable of atomizing a satellite. And red son is a far weaker incarnation than post crisis, all the same powers, not the same strengths]

Mewtwo vs Reinhard is proof of Red Sun Superman atomising a satellite?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Mewtwo vs Reinhard is proof of Red Sun Superman atomising a satellite?

LOL wrong link I'll fix it up one sec


Edit: it's fixed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I will also question if this satelite has solar system durability, as it is possible to atomise an object with energy if your energy output is vastly stronger than the objects durability without needing atomisation as an inherent property of an attack.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Thanks. Now I've read it, it doesn't seem like that satellite has SS durability, vapourising with heatvision as a side effect of the vast output of heat against something that has much less durability would work sure, but honestly, "atomising it will a well placed blow" strikes me as hyperbole. It just seems weird, the idea that he could hit it somewhere and it would dissolve into atoms.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

The King explicitly uses "Electromagnetic force manipulation" to redirect endless thunderbolt, so that is what it is. You cannot use "oh its fiction so it works differently". If Superman can be hit by sunlight on the electromagnetic specturm when he is intangible, he can be hit by the magical lightning when he is intangible.

Okay first off what does King's fundamental force manipuation have anything to do with Jin mo ris powers especially endless lightning bold, he can't even use the damn ability

Second what conclusion led you to think King can redirect endless lightning bolt= superman getting hit by endless lightning while phasing.

Third, magic or not(I'm very certain it's just normal lightning being manipauted by the weather via yeoi, if you bring up space, cosmic lighting is a real phenomenon so their you go.) , superman won't be affected by lightning in his passing form.

Physical plasma energy like the stuff fired by mongol is different to magical EndlessThunderbolt, so Superman being able to phase through mongol's energy but not Jin's lightning isn't improbable either..

Again where did you assume Mongols energy beams are plasma, like what did you mix up me telling you lightning is made up of plasma with superman passing through energy beams from Mongol. Nah man, he's not getting hit, end of story. PLS stop using this argument, I'm not going g to answer this argument anymore from this point forward.

And please provide scans of Superman explicitly still absorbing sunlight when he is intangible, otherwise we are going to assume physics still works here.

Yah I'm just stop and go through at least over 1000! Issues of superman comics just because you don't believe me. If you wish to discredit me, read the damn series otherwise take my word cause once again, not arguing this anymore.

You are also still assuming Superman will use intangibility first thing. He is fighting an unknown enemy. He's not going to assume its someone on par with him until that is proven, nor is he going to know what Jin can do and how to counter it. He'd likely do the thing he always does to a new enemy, assuming they aren't blowing up cities, and just try to tank Jin's attacks to intimidate him. So when Jin, who is 18 times stronger than Superman, rams RJ through his chest, expands it, and strikes him with a billion lightning bolts, as he tends to do, Superman isn't going to be intangible for it.

Superman isn't an idiot, far from it he's a super genius, no opponent he faces that is strong is underestimated or not checked. The second superman sees that staff coming at him he's obviously gunna dodge, sueorman doesn't let random people hit for no reason just because he doesn't know how strong they are. That's not how he fights. He's a tactical fighter on his own. And when comes to shove he won't hold back on ending fights quickly, S.B.A has superman set to kill but in character, kea in he won't be so careless as to let his opponent dance around or do what they feel like, superman will try to end this fight one way or the others and when he serious he will use anything at his disposal to win, especially his phasing.

Every one of Jin's clones is his equal. Superman blasting his way through clones with heat vision will not work when Jin is 18 times stronger than Superman. Him becoming intangible for it might work, assuming that you can provide evidence of Superman absorbing sunlight when he is intangible so I can accept that, but there is no gaurantee that is what he is going to do.


Heat vision burns at temperatures that no scientific scale can measure. I have scans staying Supermans burns at plank heat if you wish to see, or him patching a hole in reality with just heat vision, when superman Amps up that power not even people on his level can survive being caught in it. Jins clones I will guarantee YOU will not survive the attack.

5 MINUTES WON'T MATTER. They are moving at MFTL+ speeds, to them, five minutes might as well be an eternity.

Ah the good ole "since they are FTL-MFTL+ fights with them in short time periods can last an eternity" trope, unless your the flash or a character within your verse that has been stated that your perception of time is slowed down to that perspective. I hate to break it to yah but, fictional fights don't work like that, regardless of how many times they can strike within a period of time, their PERCEPTION of time is relatively the same, even if their actions can perform far higher than what they perceive. Look at Jin mo ri for example, his whole fight with Satan lasted for a good amount of time no matter how you look at it, the narrator would have stated their whole fight was in a pico second or some thing of that's how long it lasted. But no looking st the sequence of events, time was linear to them and nothing around them was frozen to their eyes, and the and the NARRATIVE didn't put any distinctions to say otherwise they just fight super fast based on feats we have them calculated at. Unlike him however, in the comics superman can slow his perception of time like the flash does to see the world frozen in time since that's what he can state and shown to do. So yah if superman wanted to he could view 5 minutes in the span close to eternity, but it's been shown he doesn't do that with his fights like the flash does with other speedsters so no using that argument.unless you can Find me a WORD FOR WORD OF Jin mo ri viewing 5 minutes as way way longer than that. Than this argument is moot.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Okay first off what does King's fundamental force manipuation have anything to do with Jin mo ris powers especially endless lightning bold, he can't even use the damn ability

Second what conclusion led you to think King can redirect endless lightning bolt= superman getting hit by endless lightning while phasing.

Third, magic or not(I'm very certain it's just normal lightning being manipauted by the weather via yeoi, if you bring up space, cosmic lighting is a real phenomenon so their you go.) , superman won't be affected by lightning in his passing form.

My logic is fairly simple. The King uses control over electromagnetic force to redirect the lightning. Therefore, we can safely assume the lightning is some form of electromagnetic phenomenon, seeing as the king is able to control it with electromagnetic force manipulation.

Sunlight is also an electromagnetic phenomenon. If sunlight is capable of hitting Superman while he is intangible, so is any other form of electromagnetic force, like Jin's lightning.

You are the one saying that Superman can absorb sunlight while he is intangible, so the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise we will assume that Superman's the "intangible to energy" bit of his power is consistent with all forms of energy, and sunlight will also pass through him without recharging him.

Its a magic cloud shooting lightning. What part of that makes you think "normal lightning"

I'll get to the other points, give me a moment.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"Superman isn't an idiot, far from it he's a super genius, no opponent he faces that is strong is underestimated or not checked. The second superman sees that staff coming at him he's obviously gunna dodge, sueorman doesn't let random people hit for no reason just because he doesn't know how strong they are. That's not how he fights. He's a tactical fighter on his own. And when comes to shove he won't hold back on ending fights quickly, S.B.A has superman set to kill but in character, kea in he won't be so careless as to let his opponent dance around or do what they feel like, superman will try to end this fight one way or the others and when he serious he will use anything at his disposal to win, especially his phasing."

Dodging the staff will be hard considering that there are several hundred staffs coming at him from all different directions, and all of them can grow to island sized widths. And we've actually already covered that Jin is leagues better a fighter than Superman.

In character, Superman doesn't use his phasing from the start against every unknown enemy. Which leaves him open to be hit and killed before he can start phasing. And like I said, Jin is hardly going to let Superman just stick his hand in his head. He can also use clones, which are physically identical to the original to trick superman into killing one of them

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"Heat vision burns at temperatures that no scientific scale can measure. I have scans staying Supermans burns at plank heat if you wish to see, or him patching a hole in reality with just heat vision, when superman Amps up that power not even people on his level can survive being caught in it. Jins clones I will guarantee YOU will not survive the attack.vision"

You gaurantee me nothing. "burns at temperatures no scientific scale can measure" that's some lovely NLF hyperbole you've got there. I guess his heat vision is now High 3-A or higher, seeing as those aren't something we can measure? Jin and his clones are again 18 times stronger that Superman's SS feat. They can block heat vision easily, and if Superman tries to focus on one to do sub-atomic destruction, all the others are going to beat him to death in seconds.

Patching holes in reality with heat vision shows nothing more than he can patch holes in reality with heat vision, which isn't combat applicable.

Show me these scans of planck temperature heat vision.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I won't bother quoting your whole reply on the MFTL+ thing. But clearly you don't even physics, seeing as the faster you move, the more time slows down for you. I'm not going to say that they have infinite time, seeing as both ficiton and this site ignore that, but if you can see and comprehend things happening at MFTL+ speeds, your perception of time is going to be different to a normal human's.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I won't bother quoting your whole reply on the MFTL+ thing. But clearly you don't even physics, seeing as the faster you move, the more time slows down for you. I'm not going to say that they have infinite time, seeing as both ficiton and this site ignore that, but if you can see and comprehend things happening at MFTL+ speeds, your perception of time is going to be different to a normal human's.

If your talking about time dilation I know what that fricken is, I'm just saying this part of physics tends to get thrown aside as well or is never specified in the first Place(you u know cause these fools going at FTL speeds and that's Impossible in RL physics that u seem to love using against superman.). I can definitely understand and know both having way better perception of time than a normal human, but enough to view 5 minutes as an eternity, nah you're gunna u need physical evidence m8 to prove that with Jin.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

You gaurantee me nothing. "burns at temperatures no scientific scale can measure" that's some lovely NLF hyperbole you've got there. I guess his heat vision is now High 3-A or higher, seeing as those aren't something we can measure? Jin and his clones are again 18 times stronger that Superman's SS feat. They can block heat vision easily, and if Superman tries to focus on one to do sub-atomic destruction, all the others are going to beat him to death in seconds.

The whole point of damn Showing those scans just to upgrade superman, the whole point you fail to realize every single damn time is that supermans heat vison is going to literally kill all of Jin's clones as soon as hits ten as they are capable of killing and hurting beings on his level or higher.

Patching holes in reality with heat vision shows nothing more than he can patch holes in reality with heat vision, which isn't combat applicable. Show me these scans of planck temperature heat vision.

Again, these are just showing off how much hottter supermans heat vison is(whether you take them seriously or not is up to you.) the scans of plank heat superman from what I know are those scans of him patching up holes in reality and unable to be measured by science of his heat vison's temperature.

Look since you clearly don't want Jin losing at all no matter what I say. I will cease discussing this and let others decide who o vote for. Any questions heybmay have I will respond and any question you haven't asked I can respond to, but that's it. I'm not wasting my time on this as we are going in a circle. And u suggest you do the same and only start debating when someone else gives another reasoning as to why superman wins.

 

[RoyGundam]

"supermans heat vison is going to literally kill all of Jin's clones as soon as hits ten as they are capable of killing and hurting beings on his level or higher." - I don't see any justification for this. Jin is actually stronger than Superman. Why is it a given that Superman can casually kill Jin's clones with his heat vision ? If that were the case, Superman should have been stronger - via using heat vision, but he isn't. There is nothing on Superman's profile that says that his Heat vision can ignore Durability OR that he can output a greater amount of power through his heat vision than otherwise. Being that as it is, Superman's heat vision is the same level of 4-B attack potency that he normally is, and wouldn't OHK any of Jin's clones.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Roygundam, all you gotta do is scroll up and see the feats of superman vaporizing an entire army of doomsday clones( a being who's durability rivals or surpasses supermans.)

Also if you do not know the gap between solar system and multi is enormous so heat vison itself regardless of us knowing it can kill and hurt beings on higher end's of solar system do it doesn't change his tier either way. Also we can't assume a multiplier for his heat vison all we can do is show off feats like that.

@monrach as a side note [here's another superman heat vison feat where he deflects darkseids omega beams, if you know anything about darkseid and his omega beams and the "omega effect". this is a very impressive feat.]

 

[RoyGundam]

Darkseid's omega beams are just 4-B level because Superman is usually able to tank those anyway.

Doomsday clones are usually shown to be far weaker than Superman or original Doomsday. There is no solid grounds for saying that Superman's heat vision has a power output greater than Superman himself. Superman is calced at a lower level than Jin at the moment. In DC, everyone scales off of Superman, and Superman scales off of everyone, so again, there is no grounds for believing that people Superman has defeated actually lied on a higher end of the 4-B spectrum - because, at the end of the day, they all scale from Superman - and Superman's best feat puts him behind Jin's best feat by a significant margin.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@roygundam if you have read the comics you would know darkseids omega beams themselves are haxes due to the "omega effect" and anything darkseid wishes to annihilate from existence he only needs to hit them with his omega beams. Matching and deflecting darkseids omega beams is no easy feat and goes to show you Jin's clones will not survive supermans attack.

And this "18x stronger than superman" claim is one that is going to be checked since it doesn't take into consideration the fact Han dae wi's part in the feat he provided.( this likely will cut the result in half.)

 

[RoyGundam]

"if you have read the comics you would know darkseids omega beams themselves are haxes due to the "omega effect" and anything darkseid wishes to annihilate from existence he only needs to hit them with his omega beams." - none of that matters. Superman ca tank them and we have an estimate of Superman's Durability. It is being claimed that Jin is stronger than Superman (9x, 18x - makes no difference) - ergo, Jin can also tank Omega beams.

Again, as it stands, none of your arguments have a leg to stand on. Superman is not winning this unless he gets an upgrade

 

[Grudgeman1706]

"if you have read the comics you would know darkseids omega beams themselves are haxes due to the "omega effect" and anything darkseid wishes to annihilate from existence he only needs to hit them with his omega beams." - none of that matters. Superman ca tank them and we have an estimate of Superman's Durability. It is being claimed that Jin is stronger than Superman (9x, 18x - makes no difference) - ergo, Jin can also tank Omega beams.

Again, as it stands, none of your arguments have a leg to stand on. Superman is not winning this unless he gets an upgrade

Are you serious. DID you not read the fact that omega beams ignore durability completely to anything it hits because of the omega effect. No normal being can survive the omega rams even if you have the same durability as darkseid( you literally need special resistance to void Erasure to survive it.) also he'll no Jin isn't surviving it if he ever faced it, it IGNORES dura. Jin's slight AP advantage(if it even is accurate as I need to recheck the math on this.) is not enough to give Jin the win.

Phasing and heat vison will make quick work of Jin and his clones and now you are also forgetting he fact superman can increase his strength exponentially with the sun especially if he gets closer to it Sun while once again, 5 MINUTES is all Jin has with his AP upgrade and superman can and will hold out against Jin for that long and boom it's over.

The only "legs" your argument has is the repeated argument monarch has that fails to acknowledge or accept supermans constant and growing recharge with the sun and potency of heat vison and his ability to phase through attacks with his vibrations(BOTH energy and physical attacks.)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can anyone sum up the current argument for me?

 

[RoyGundam]

But Superman has survived Omega beams, right ?

And his Durability is only 4-B level.

And Darkseid's AP is also usually 4-B level - when his Avatars fight Superman.

So one 4-B deflected the beams of another 4-B. It's really not so impressive. In fact, it would probably count as PIS because reportedly, the only things to block the Omega Sanction were WW's bracelets - because of some obtuse divine characteristic that they had.

"Phasing and heat vison will make quick work of Jin and his clones" - no, it won't, or rather, you have shown no sufficient evidence that it would. In fact, you abandoned your previous argument for heat vision and pivoted into this unquantifiable thing about him deflecting Darkseid's beams

Finally, Jin is not an idiot - if he sees that Superman is gaining ground from the Sun, he will take the fight somewhere away. He still has sealing, magic and the ability to grow a Planet sized Yeoui - which is itself a 4-B item - inside Superman's body from a single broken chip.

This is getting tiresome

 

[RoyGundam]

I think enough words have been said. Let the votes decide.

I believe it was tied at 4-4 at last count

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Superman wins. He is stronger. More versatile. Better skilled. More intelligent. Faster, and can phase, affect space-time with heat vision, destroy things on a sub-atomic level, lobotomize you, and absorb energy attacks.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

But Superman has survived Omega beams, right ?

He survives them only because he has protection from the source wall So he effect doesn't kill him when he's hit by it, only he and I believe etragon have this protection.

A And Darkseid's AP is also usually 4-B level - when his Avatars fight Superman.


"Phasing and heat vison will make quick work of Jin and his - no, it won't, or rather, you have shown no sufficient evidence that it would. In fact, you abandoned your previous argument for heat vision and pivoted into this unquantifiable thing about him deflecting Darkseid's beams

I never abandoned my previous arguments, literally they all still stand to help show evidence of the potency of supermans heat vison And yet you purposely ignore the evidence provide it.

Finally, Jin is not an idiot - if he sees that Superman is gaining ground from the Sun, he will take the fight somewhere away. He still has sealing, magic and the ability to grow a Planet sized Yeoui - which is itself a 4-B item - inside Superman's body from a single broken chip.

Again never stated he was an idiot, don't put words in my mouth I hade never spouted, second by the time Jin realizes superman is getting stronger because of the sun superman would have gotten a hold of him and either tear him apart with his new boosted strength which will rival his due to the power boost sun dip dupes gets eventually or straight up lobotomize him with microscopic heat vison to the brain.

I'm tried of repeating myself to you as well.

This is getting tiresome </div>

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I think enough words have been said. Let the votes decide.

I believe it was tied at 4-4 at last count

I can very much agree with this, let the others decide the winners.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Superman wins. He is stronger. More versatile. Better skilled. More intelligent. Faster, and can phase, affect space-time with heat vision, destroy things on a sub-atomic level, lobotomize you, and absorb energy attacks.

I'm just going to point out that Superman's strength feat is still calced at 18 times less than Jin's, Jin's last incarnation who he as all the memories and experience of has been fighting and defeating other expert martial artists for thousands of years (as well as being capable of learning any martial arts technique he's seen once and developing counters to the weaknesses of main martial arts on the fly and defeating someone who had specifically prepared to beat him), speed is equalised (or at least it should be otherwise this is a massive blitz), and I don't think Superman can absorb magical Kinto-Un lightning while Jin can absorb heat vision and ice breath with the gourd.

I won't deny Superman is more versatile, but I will say that a large degree of his versatility won't help - ice breath - Jin clones himself to distract superman and breaks out, or just absorbs the breath. Heat vision - people on his level have been taken down by it. But people 18 times stronger than his level? Not so sure about that. And again, gourd absorb. Opening and sealing space-time holes - not combat applicable, though it could help Superman escape being sealed in the gourd. Intangibility - as I covered,unless superman can explicitly absorb sunlight while intangible, it is fair to assume that his "intangible to energy" part of his intangibility is consistent with all forms of energy, and he won't be able to absorb sunlight while he's vibrating and so will eventually need to stop. Or he can absorb sunlight while he's intangible, and another electromagnetic force such as Jin's lightning can also hit him.

Lobotomy? He needs to look in Jin's, the real Jin, eyes for that to work, which there is no gaurantee that he'll be able to do seeing as Jin having his hundred clones (which are all completely identical to Jin apart from a 0.002% difference in DNA) fight for him is not uncommon, and Jin fights with a martial art that doesn't involve looking into the other person's eyes.

We've established that Superman needs to focus his heatvision on one location in order to do sub-atomic destruction and cannot do it with a field wide blast, so he can't ignore Jin's durability without focusing on a specific point, which Jin's clones aren't going to just sit around and let him do,

Superman taking a dip in the sun would definitely make him strong enough to kill Jin, but there is no gauratee Jin won't have killed him before then. Jin doesn't play around (not that superman does either, but the point I'm making is that Superman has to survive Jin and his hundred clones' attacks first to realise he needs the sun to beat him). It isn't like every time there is a threat to him Superman goes and waits in the sun for a bit. And when Superman needs to hit Jin 18 times to do the damage Jin can do with one hit, and there are a hundred of Jin's clones around all attacking with the same force, and all jin needs to do is have a clone place or personally place a small piece of RJ in superman's mouth, or nose or ears or a scratch he's made to kill him, Superman is probably going to die before he works out he needs the sun dip.

I feel I've made enough points, and I apologies for any rudeness or aggressiveness that may have come across during my comments, I got worked up. I'll let the rest of this be decided by other voters.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Jin for reasons above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I thought Superman was stronger. Nevermind then.