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Superman vs Jin Mo-Ri

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You understand that absolute zero is a temperature. Absolute Zero is durabilty negation, because it means atoms don't have any energy so they lose their ability to hold themselves together so they collapse. Cancelling out absolute zero is just heating it back up again. Absolute zero is not some temperature equivalent of a black hole that sucks in and negates all heat. Superman using heat vision to cancel out absolute zero is literally him putting the missing energy back into the atoms by heating it up. It doesn't show durability negatation or atomic annihilation or anything. It's literally just him heating up the energyless atoms.

The blast won't vapourise them as I covered above, so they can still block it. If they are all surrounding him, and speed is equal (which it must be, seeing as otherwise Superman blitzes quite horribly), then even if the ones in superman's sight get blasted, the ones behind him and beside him can still dodge in and impale Supreman with Ruyi Jigu and expand it to rip him in half, which is how Jin was able to deal with someone with greater durability than him before. Which I notice no one has adressed yet.

Far higher than the sun sure, but still an unquantified 4-B level. Which is Jin's durability.

Jin has used the gourd to absorb attacks before. If he sees his clones all getting blasted by heat vision, he'll pull it out. And again, a blast of heat vision on the level shown when Superman kiled the doomsday clones left him extremely tired. He won't be able to keep it up for long, and once it's finished Jin can swoop in and take him down.
 
I've already seen that molecular scan, and said how it doesn't negate durability. Hell, if it negates durabiltiy by atomisation why isn't that man atomised?

He'd need to look into Jin's eyes for that, something quite difficult to do in the middle of a martial arts fight. And it's not exactly the first option he takes in battle. He might even get a clone by mistake.
 
Has Superman actually disintegrated anybody with heat vision on atomic level? If he didn't then there's no proof it ignores durability. For example, Surfer and Sentry have completely destroyed enemies on atomic level without any trace
 
He'd need to look into Jin's eyes for that, something quite difficult to do in the middle of a martial arts fight. And it's not exactly the first option he takes in battle. He might even get a clone by mistake

You do realize he could literally grapple him and than stare into his eyes for only an instant and boom fried brain. Jin's clones are tough to differentiate but supermans Super vison would be able to differentiate them, whether it's his heat residue to atomic or mocleuclar structure, hell he could just locate Jin's souls as he is capable of seeing souls as well. He won't be fooled and instantly go for the real Jin.

Remember Jin may be the better fighter, but superman is by far the smartest fighter and tactician.
 
I do agree that lobotomy would affect Jin, it goes straight through the eyes to the brain. However I haven't seen heat vision disintegrating anybody on molecular level like Sentry or Surfer.
 
Jin is hardly going to just let himself get grappled. He's a much better H2H combatant, and can read superman's movements on contact

There is no different between Jin's clones and him, so no, supervision won't help. And when has superman ever been able to see souls?

And if Superman tries to concentrate on one Jin, all the others are going to beat him to death / seal him / endless thunderbolt him to death
 
The real cal howard said:
So, um...intangibility? How come no one addressed that?
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I don't think Superman would phase through Jin unless he's bloodlusted. Ice breath is fair game however
 
How does Superman's intangibility work? Jin can attack things like contracted spirits summoned through Charyeok, so...
 
Monarch Laciel said:
How does Superman's intangibility work? Jin can attack things like contracted spirits summoned through Charyeok, so...
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Vibrating all his molecules so that any attack that hits him will just go through. This includes [energy attacks.]

Also dude charteoks themselves aren't intangible as legit anything physical can touch them(they aren't like stands from Jojo.

So Jin won't be able to hit superman.
 
@Joseph superman has used his intangibility in normal fights before, blood listed would not be needed for him to use it.
 
Vibrating molecules won't help against Kinto-Un's endless thunderbolt. Can I see some scans of superman doing this please?

The Charyeoks have a few examples of being intangible before, and no one outside of other Charyeok users have hit them, so its likely they are intangible, except against other chareok users and demons/gods/spirits

Also, Superman's durability comes from the bio-electric field he projects around himself, which is disrupted by magic based attacks. So all of Jin's attacks are going to go through that to a degree, allowing him to do more damage to superman than their dura and ap would suggest.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Vibrating molecules won't help against Kinto-Un's endless thunderbolt. Can I see some scans of superman doing this please?

The Charyeoks have a few examples of being intangible before, and no one outside of other Charyeok users have hit them.
Click to expand...
Already posted above in a recent edit

Also post scans pls. Also that isn't true, Jin mo to before he got his chareok hit them before, same with his grandfather who had none as well because both are strength users.
 
Jin mori has always had his power (not charyeok, charyeok is power borrowed from the gods, jin doesn't borrow from anyone, the power is his alone) so it makes sense he would be able to hit them. His grandfather only attacked the swords and nephilim created by Sang Man Duk's king of earth and not the spirit himself. Additionally, he is considered exceptional and an anomaly, so him being able to hit them too isn't unexplainable.

Judge O's dragon phases through a building, showing intangibility

Shown again near the end of this chapter where it partially phases through the floor

Examples of Megalodon swimming out of the ground, showing intangibility several pages i

A joker appears through the ground, showing intangibility

Several pages into the chapter (where Judge Q is impaled by the sword), Judge Q's scythe goes through the ground without damaging it, showing intangibility

Oxen King Uma's contracted form is an intangible ghost. Seen throughout this chapter

Orochi moves through the ground, showing intangibility, [1]

Images of Charyeok in spirit form , backing up the idea of their intangible nature.

Their natures as spirits and deceased souls further backs up the idea of their intangibility, as seen when Park Mu Jin explains what Charyeok is too Han Dae Wi (I can't find the chapter, but you probably remember the scene)

Also, please show more than just the feat itself. The explanation and aftermath is important too. Maybe Superman is tired from it. Maybe he says he can't keep it up for long. Showing only the feat gives rise to potential NLF and limits my ability to dispute.
 
nabong needle ryu limiter removal is what it sounds, removing limiter, its been hinted that the only thing that is limiting its use is the endurance of the person using it. Charyeok are intangible, its been seen multiple times. Jin is a god, so its reasonable he can hit other gods and like Monarch said Jin Tae-Jin is an anomaly. When has supes heat vision desintigrated people on his level, and he still got up to fight people at a similar level? the gourd, yeah supes ain't getting out, if he does there is nothing to say he will end up in the same universe as jin (Monarch has stated this multiple times). Jin's profile states that he can seal attcks in his gourd, though he is not frecuently. like i said jin can learn stuff from his clones and his clones can learn stuff from him too. Jin has waaayyy more experience, better h2h combatent, good strategist, can predict his oponents moves through contact, has magical attacks.
 
How Jin Wins this: A note on their levels of SS:


It is currently impossible to quantitatively prove that there is a meaningful difference between Superman's SS Level and Jin's SS level. Superman's SS feat is weird to begin with and he did it with some difficulty, and all of his enemies and allies on this site scale to him, so attempting to scale them back is not an argument. Jin has gone through numerous massive power increases both before and since his exhausted, dying, limbless clone did the Small Star level feat. Starting at peak condition and with Na Bong Chim limit removal X250,000 this means he is squarely into SS level. Additionally, while it is true his Na Bong Chim limit removal is what is pushing him (well) into SS level and only lasts for 5 minutes, these are characters moving at MFTL+ speeds. That time is not a problem. Also, sorry @AnonymousOtaku, but no, Jin cannot keep multiplying his power. He's never been seen to be capable of stacking them and to assume he can is NLF.


Reason 1: Jin's Clones One of Jin's main advantages in this fight is that he can summon 100 clones of himself who are all capable of utilising 100% of his power and weapons for 5 minutes, possibly longer (Jin's clones are stronger the closer they are to the original. Hui Mo Ri, who gives us the 5 minute limit for 100% is in a different universe to Jin, about the farthest away he can get. Also, see the note above for why this time limit doesn't actually matter). These clones also gain all of Jin's knowledge upon creation, and upon being defeated give Jin all knowledge they have obtained, allowing him to experience and adapt to Superman's attacks and abilities without risk.

These clones can also be created several dozen metres away from the original, allowing them to be summoned all around Superman to surround him and attack from all angles. Effectively this means that Superman now has 100 more SS levels beating on him at once. This include Endless Thunderbolts,RJ strikes, acupuncture attacks, and everything mentioned below.


Reason 2: Jin is Friendship and Friendship is Magic

Jin is a demon who became a Buddha who became a god from the sage realm, who reincarnates, and is both a source and user of Charyeok, the G.o.H's equivalent to magic. I'll quote my previous reply for the rest of the explanation.


"Charyeok is borrowed power, which comes from gods and spirits, such as Jin Mo Ri. It is never once attributed to any form of science or scientific process. It can achieve miraculous feats such as summoning and manifesting the spirits of dead wariors, granting any wish, manipulation the fundamental forces of reality, empowering beings, absorbing the life force and mind controlling of beings such as monkey and ox demons, creation and matter manipulation, opening portals to other worlds, etc. Charyeok which causes all of this is treated as magic and is the God of Highschool verse's equivalent. All of Jin's abilities are magic, and as a magical being his physical strikes would also qualify"

Also, @XBlack, magic is a method, not a result. All the examples of what it could do that I gave you above are all achieved through magic.


Superman is consistently shown and stated to be as vulnerable to magic as any normal man. His durability, caused by a solar powered bio-electric field around him, is disrupted by magical attacks, allowing them to bypass his durability. While he has shown some resistance to magical attacks before *cough blatant pis that disregards the limits placed on him before for the sake of giving him the win cough*, it is not at enough of a level to protect him from 100 magical SS level Endless Thunderbolts from the Kinto-Un.

Reason 3: Jin is the Superior Fighter


I'll quote my previous comment on this, and add some other stuff. "He's done nothing but training and fighting other gods and monsters (most of whom are excellent martial artists themselves) for thousands of years, he's capable of copying the physical techniques of any humanoid opponent after seeing the technique once, in this incarnation he's mastered renewal taekwondo, and learnt techniques from karate and moonlight sword style, takeon, acupuncture, etc, he can see your weak points just by looking at you and block your blood to make your limbs useless with pressure points, etc" He also developed counters and remedies to all of the weaknesses in the style he had learnt, something even the original creators had been unable to do, can read the intent of his opponents once he is in contact with them Superman has trained in martial arts as well, this is true. But he is still well below Jin's level, having not even trained 50 years to Jin's 1000


Reason 4: Jin's Gourd


Jin's Gourd is capable of sealing and attack absorption. All he needs to do is say "Gourd, seal" and Superman will be sucked into the gourd. While Superman could escape the pocket universe inside it by creating a hole in space-time, there is no evidence he can direct the hole, and is therefore just as likely to open a hole to some other random universe, which would be Jin's win via BFR.

Any ranged attacks Superman has, Heat vision, freeze breath, throwing rocks(?), Jin can once again say "gourd seal" and the attack will be sucked inside the Gourd, nullifying them.


Reason 5: Ruyi Jingu is OP


The RJ is capable of extending intergalactic distances near instantly, and expanding to have the width of a small country. Its density does not change with this expansion, so it will always be as durable as before. Although stated to weigh between 7000 and 8000 kilograms, this is a reference to the Sun Wukong mythology and is incorrect, seeing as Uriel (who could near push the planet Mars away from the planet with minor difficult) had her arms ripped off when she tried to carry it.

The expansion properties of the RJ also allow for a degree of durability negation. In his fight against Jae Kal Taek, Jin utilised this by expanding the staff fast enough that it pierced through Jae's chest, then expanded it, ripping Jae in half. He utilised a similar method again in his fight against the First Crown Prince, repeatedly attacking him with copies of the RJ (yeah he can make copies of it, just like his clones. These copies all keep the same properties of the original even when broken, apart from their durability which is much lower) and shoving a fragment of the broken RJ's into a wound, then expanding it. Jin could just as easily do this to superman, especially if he has his 100 clones all attempting it at once, aiming for superman's mouth, nose and ears.


Minor other reasons:

Kinto-Un / Flying Sparrow Cloud


It can act as a shield against Superman's strikes. It can strike Superman with hundreds of lightning bolts at once, which when done to Jae's ascended god form, was able to reduce him to cinders and scattered body parts. And of course, every clone can use their own.


Ruler of the 7th Heavenly Realm


Serves Jin after he defeated it. Can be summoned instantly. High-Mid to Low-High regen. Flight. Offensive Shapeshifiting. Can distract Superman and attack from multiple angles, distracting him


Disputes against Superman's Abilities / How Jin counters them

Heat Vision


Grudge and XBlack have been arguing that Superman's heat vision is ignores durability via atomisation. Black provided one scan of Superman saying his heat vision works on a molecular level, which proves nothing as all heat works on a molecular level, that is literally what heat is, the molecules of something vibrating due to having lots of energy. Grudge provided a scan of superman overpowering Captain Cold's absolute zero beam, which also doesn't prove atomisation, because as I said in my previous reply:


"Absolute zero is a temperature. Absolute Zero is durability negation, because it means atoms don't have any energy so they lose their ability to hold themselves together so they collapse. Cancelling out Absolute Zero is just putting energy back into the system and heating it back up again. Absolute zero is not some temperature equivalent of a black hole that sucks in and negates all heat. Superman using heat vision to cancel out absolute zero is literally him putting the missing energy back into the atoms by heating it up. It doesn't show durability negation or atomic annihilation or anything. It's literally just him heating up the energy less atoms."

Grudge also showed a scan saying how Superman's heat beams were off standard scientific measures, which also doesn't prove anything as A) this is fiction and most things of this kind are off standard scientific measures and B) nothing in there says anything about atomisation or similar durability negation.


While it is possible superman could have atomised/vapourised/incinerated someone with his heat vision, I have yet to see any scans of him doing such a feat to someone on his own level and have concluded that any atomisation or incineration on Superman's heat vision's part is done via sheer energy rather than any form of hax, and would therefore not be able to one-shot Mori or his clones. Also, as stated above, Jin's clones can surround Superman and make it so he can't attack all of them at once with Heat Vision, at least not without depowering (via Solar Flare)

Superman's Flight


Yeah, cool, Jin's got that too. Superman won't be just flying away to roast them all with a planetary heat vision (which, btw, is stated it would take some time from that distance to destroy the entire planet with heat vision, so we can assume it's barely planetary level with such a width and distance between the superman and the target)

Enhanced Senses


Jin was able to sense the king fighting with Park Il Pyo from a different solar sytem, then fly over and intercept the strike perfectly. He can sense your weak points just by looking at you. He matches superman's enhanced senses

Ripping holes in space-time


Not exactly combat orientated. Again, if he tries to use it to escape the Gourd he's just as likely to end up in some other universe somewhere seeing as he can't control where this hole will lead.


Superman's Strength


Covered in the notes at the start

Speed


Speed is either equalised or superman blitzes, so I'm assuming it is equalised, nullifying this aspect of the fight.


Resistances to a bunch of things


None of which Mo Ri uses, so irrelevant


Energy Absorption Pretty sure this only applies to solar radiation. Even if it doesn't, Kinto-Un's lightning is magical and from a different universe even within the G.O.H verse, and superman has been shown to struggle or flat out be unable to absorb solar energies from different universes. Unlikely he'll be able to absorb it.


Superman's Instant Lobotomy Only works when superman is looking into the person's eyes, which is unlikely to happen seeing as A) They are fighting at mftl+ speeds with Jin/clones using martial arts, so Superman getting the chance to look into Jin's or his clone's eyes is unlikely, B) Superman doesn't know which clone is the real one to lobotomise, and once he's done it to one clone Jin will know not to look in Superman's eyes C) If Superman attempts to pin/grapple Jin or one of his clones to look in his eyes, all the other Jins are kinda going to take advantage of Superman's distraction.


Intangibility

Superman's saving grace, although Jin's ability to attack intangible Charyeok spirits could possibly counter it. However, I would like some more information on this. Is it tiring for him to use? Can he only keep it up for a limited amount of time? What sort of attacks have managed to attack Superman while he is using it (I assume there must be some, or else it would be a very OP technique to use)
 
^ Can you keep it down? This seems like argument from exhaustion. Also, no, Superman is at a higher-degree of Solar System-level than Jin Mo-Ri. His best feat isn't even calced. He pushed a compressed sun from Earth at relativistic feats.
 
@The Real Cal Howard.

Okay.

http://imgur.com/a/D9eD4

In the last page, if you could calc the speed in which Supes pushed the sun to space (Before throwing it out of the Solar System at FTL speeds), that'd be great. Would require some angsizing to figure out how far away from Earth he is.
 
I didn't realise how large the 4-B energy range was.

On a side note, if the 4-B tier size is as massive as one trillion x difference between high and low end, should it not be separated into Low SS level, SS level and High SS level?
 
Voting for Superman, being at a higher degree of 4B and having a good amount of counters to things Jin can do should give him the edge he needs to win.
 
Pretty heated, this fight is ... I'm gonna go with Monkey boy on this one. He's technically magic and all he needs to do is create a tiny wound on Superman's body and get a sliver of his staff in there
 
Tsuna404 said:
Voting for Jin Mo-Ri
Click to expand...
You need to provide a reason for why Jin mo ri wins and or say for reasons above. Also I'm pretty sure superman won via votes I'll tally later.

Edit:Superman 4

Jin 4
 
RoyGundam said:
Pretty heated, this fight is ... I'm gonna go with Monkey boy on this one. He's technically magic and all he needs to do is create a tiny wound on Superman's body and get a sliver of his staff in there
Click to expand...
First he would need to break off a piece of his staff into supermans skin which is very unlikely the ryu Jin would be capable of doing that as it needed to hit someone stronger than it multiple times in the same spot in order for it to work. T was done via plot basically.
 
Actually the time it was done, Jin was using his copy's RJs which have far less durability, but are otherwise the same in all aspects. So it wouldn't be that hard for him to use the same method. And I highly disagree about that being done by plot convienience. It was a tactical move on Jin's part used to defeat someone more durable than him by attack the guy internally.

Additionally, it doesn't need to be Superman's skin. It could be his mouth, his ears, his nose, etc. Plus, the RJ is magic. And magic disrupts Superman's bio-electric field, effectively reducing his durability from magical attacks.
 
Hey guys this comment is extremely important for this match

So Jin's base Heavenly Realm Arc has been upgraded, which means his SS level with Na Bong Chim Limit Removal has been upgraded. And lookee here! I have the calcs

Jin's Heavenly Realm form is at least (low-mid end) Large Star Level in base, because:

1) Phase 2 Satan > Phase 1 Satan > Dying Hui Mori, meaning he can output at least 19 tenatons of force (Low end of Small Star Level)

2) Phase 2 Satan multiplied his power by X52, meaning he can do at least 988 tenatons (low to mid end Large Star Level)

3) Jin is still capable of fighting evenly with Satan, even without using x52 himself. Therefore, Jin is at least Large Star Level

(The "at least" is always going to be there until some way is found to find a set value on Jin and Satan's power, because right now they are both scaling from someone far weaker than them both - Exhausted Dying Hui Mori)

So with Na Bong Chim Limit Removal x250,000, Supreme God Jin can output at least:

250,000 x 988 tenatons = 247,000,000 tenatons of force = 247,000,000 x 10^30 tonnes of force

= 2.47 x 10^38 tonnes of force (Solar System level)

But Monarch you say. He is still in SS level for this fight isn't he? Why is this important?

Here is why it is important:

Jin's AP: 2.47 x 10^38 tonnes of force

Superman's AP (from Cal's recent calc) is 2.35 X 10^36 tonnes of force (Low end) to 13.515 x 10^36 tonnes of force (high end)

(2.47 x 10^38) - (13.515 x 10^36 ) = 2.335 X 10^38

In other words, Jin is stronger than Superman (about 100 times I think based on the scientific notation)
 
Well, I vote for Jin Mo-Ri because Yeo Ui can be, to some extent, lethal. If he scratches Superman once, Yeo Ui will grow inside him, and if he hurts him more than once, the results may be worse.

In addition to the Martial, where Mo-Ri is very good, he can beat even martial artists who can be specifically prepared to fight him (Park Il Pyo).
 
Superman no longer has molecular destruction. Any superman voters want to change, based on this and my last comment?
 
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