Super Saiyan God Multipler

[Sir_Marvulous]

i don't see how that explains why the suggested multiplier in the op is not acurate in comparison to the current one

Because the difference between Gogeta Blue and Super Saiyan Blue is significantly over twice the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier, meaning Ultra Instinct Omen's multiplier is way, WAY over simply 200 times Super Saiyan Blue's own

 

[AwkguyDB]

You should strikethrough the UIO section because as I already pointed out it would just downgrade the current multiplier

agreed will handle the other half in a later thread

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Where in the manga is this stated?

This concept is reiterated later in the Super anime by Vados; though, according to Herms, the phrasing Vados employs there is identical to the phrasing employed the GT Perfect Files, describing Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta as "tens of times greater than a single Super Saiyan 4".

10x Potara multiplier???

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Just FYI, UIO multiplier scaling is redundant because it scales above Gogeta Blue who in base is already stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta combined, meaning UIO is more than (twice the SSB multiplier) * Super Saiyan Blue

Yeah no this is wrong

Because they're reliant on Beerus scaling and Gogeta Blue is stronger than Broly who is about equal with Beerus meanwhile UIO Goku is an entire effortless one-shot above Beerus due to scaling to Jiren whose ki blast would've easily crushed his own GoD with the sheer force of it

Let's not get too into this because that would be derailing

This is definitely not accepted and if it is it’s wrong

Hard disagree on set multiplier for SSG, it is literally surpassed by a base potara fusion during the ToP so the entire argument of it ever being static in relation to potara amp is unsubstantiated.

It’s not a set multiplier and this is debunked in the crt the same way we upscale SSJB to 2500x (before the upgrade) it was due to SSJG being >50x and another 50x with SSJ

Ssjg is stronger than Vegito which would be Base>500x Base>250000 and Ssjb would be 50x that

Guides state that Potara is A*B so a solar system legel person using ssjg and it surpassing his max stats in fusion is different from 2 people who are stronger than Goku when he absorbed god ki into base and fusing ontop of it because ssjg has a set multiplier (tho we don’t know what it is this is just a heavy lowball to upscale) and potara has no multiplier it’s dependent on the strength of both users who’s power is multiplied

This concept is reiterated later in the Super anime by Vados; though, according to Herms, the phrasing Vados employs there is identical to the phrasing employed the GT Perfect Files, describing Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta as "tens of times greater than a single Super Saiyan 4".

10x Potara multiplier???

10s of times literally can mean any number 20x-any higher finite number it’s basically support

 

[Eseseso]

IMO, SSJG Goku in BoG > SSJ Vegito, so 50x SSJ3 which itself will soon be 1000x Base (since I think we agreed that SSJ2 is 20x SSJ and SSJ3 scales above that).

 

[StekFence]

10s of times literally can mean any number 20x-any higher finite number it’s basically support

Generally speaking, it would stop at 99

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Yeah no this is wrong

This is definitely not accepted and if it is it’s wrong

1. Its common sense. The superiority over Beerus that Gogeta Blue has isn't as severe as that of Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
2. Its already accepted that Third Ultra Instinct Omen Goku scales to the same speed value because he scales massively above Beerus who also scales to said speed value. The superiority over Beerus just hammers in the difference

Now then, its out of the OP, so we shouldn't be discussing it anymore

 

[StekFence]

Actually, doesn’t that vados statement literally give fusion a canon multiplier? Fusee A x 20+ = Fused result.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Actually, doesn’t that vados statement literally give fusion a canon multiplier? Fusee A x 20+ = Fused result.

That one is kinda poorly worded. Same sentiment, not so good wording

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

1. Its common sense. The superiority over Beerus that Gogeta Blue has isn't as severe as that of Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
2. Its already accepted that Third Ultra Instinct Omen Goku scales to the same speed value because he scales massively above Beerus who also scales to said speed value. The superiority over Beerus just hammers in the difference

Now then, its out of the OP, so we shouldn't be discussing it anymore

Weird also Goku thinking Broly is stronger than Beerus doesn’t mean he’s not but broly and Gogeta blue’s fight is stated to be the strongest in history atp in time which means >Jiren vs Goku but I’ll stop mentioning it here

IMO, SSJG Goku in BoG > SSJ Vegito, so 50x SSJ3 which itself will soon be 1000x Base (since I think we agreed that SSJ2 is 20x SSJ and SSJ3 scales above that).

Yeah but SSJ3’s x4 isn’t accepted so for ssj3 it’d just be unquantifiable amount above ssj2

Generally speaking, it would stop at 99

Why?

Actually, doesn’t that vados statement literally give fusion a canon multiplier? Fusee A x 20+ = Fused result.

10s of times literally can mean any number 20x-any higher finite number it’s basically support

 

[StekFence]

Why?

Well, because conventionally speaking, most would just say a 100 if they are referring to numbers about that large, or a thousand, etc etc. hell, saying tens of times to describe 99 rather than saying a hundred times is kinda unusual. It seems VERY uncommon to use tens of times to refer to any and all multiples of tens.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Well, because conventionally speaking, most would just say a 100 if they are referring to numbers about that large, or a thousand, etc etc. hell, saying tens of times to describe 99 rather than saying a hundred times is kinda unusual. It seems VERY uncommon to use tens of times to refer to any and all multiples of tens.

Ok so it’s vague is what you’re saying?

 

[StekFence]

no, im Saying your interpretation is very unlikely

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

no, im Saying your interpretation is very unlikely

What intepretation? I’m saying what’s 10’s of time could mean and it doesn’t contradict anything it being 99x like you’re suggesting isn’t supported by anything and the term itself doesn’t mean anything without support either I’m not sure if you’re trying to argue if fusion is below Ssj 2 level or sum

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Given how vague it is, it shouldn't take any precedence over fusion demonstrably and historically having no set multiplier

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Fusion's "set multiplier" is the maximum power of the counterparts A+B multiplied by tens of times for the Base Fusion

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

There is no way we're arguing if "tens of times" can mean hundreds and thousands when the term
"hundreds of times" or "thousands of times" exists.

If the "tens" were used, then the statement is referring to any number that has two decimal places.
100 has three.
You guys don't have a word for two decimal places other than "tens" but Japanese does.

Basic linguistic interpretation.​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

By the way, I agree with the OP
of course

 

[KingNanaya]

ssj2 still better. I'm neutral for now ig

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Also just curious, are Toeiverse multipliers and canon multipliers separated or composited? I know AxB is stated in the Z Anime itself so I wonder if that'd be retconned by Super or just its own thing.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Given how vague it is, it shouldn't take any precedence over fusion demonstrably and historically having no set multiplier

I mean 10s of times can mean 99x but it’s assumptions with more assumptions and with the assumptions that’s it can only be 99x is inconsistent with the other statements and showings of Power tens of times can mean 100x but saying it can only be under 100 because it doesn’t say hundreds of times isn’t a valid refute when it goes against everything that’s been stated and shown

Fusion's "set multiplier" is the maximum power of the counterparts A+B multiplied by tens of times for the Base Fusion

Well Potara is just stated to be A’s BP * B’s BP and SSJ is stated to be 50x BP so IMO potara should just be 150m x 150m bare minimum

There is no way we're arguing if "tens of times" can mean hundreds and thousands when the term
"hundreds of times" or "thousands of times" exists.

If the "tens" were used, then the statement is referring to any number that has two decimal places.
100 has three.
You guys don't have a word for two decimal places other than "tens" but Japanese does.

Basic linguistic interpretation.​

So you’re saying it has to be under 100? Or nah I’m confused by this comment

Also just curious, are Toeiverse multipliers and canon multipliers separated or composited? I know AxB is stated in the Z Anime itself so I wonder if that'd be retconned by Super or just its own thing.

Well AxB is also stated in guides that apply for the manga not just the anime

 

[omegabronic]

1. Its common sense. The superiority over Beerus that Gogeta Blue has isn't as severe as that of Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
2. Its already accepted that Third Ultra Instinct Omen Goku scales to the same speed value because he scales massively above Beerus who also scales to said speed value. The superiority over Beerus just hammers in the difference

Now then, its out of the OP, so we shouldn't be discussing it anymore

What thread made this accepted btw, that beerus and goku scaled to ssjb gogeta in speed i mean

 

[omegabronic]

Also just curious, are Toeiverse multipliers and canon multipliers separated or composited? I know AxB is stated in the Z Anime itself so I wonder if that'd be retconned by Super or just its own thing.

We don't scale thia type of stuff between alternate universes in the wiki

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Also just curious, are Toeiverse multipliers and canon multipliers separated or composited? I know AxB is stated in the Z Anime itself so I wonder if that'd be retconned by Super or just its own thing.

How would that even work in actuality, mathematically speaking?

Joules x Joules? But that's subjective to perspective. 9 Foe x 9 Foe is 81 Foe, but 9e44 Joules x 9e44 Joules is 81e88 Joules which is... more than 81 Foe by a factor of 44 zeros.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I disagree with God scaling above Fusion multplier. Omen being superior to SSJ2 Kefla is a maybe. Iirc, when using full power she was gonna one shot Goku. I’m not too sure about this though.
The Daizenshuu never states that it’s the strength of their strongest forms being multiplied, only that their strength is being multiplier, and increased even further.

In the manga, it’s said said that they should fuse while in SSJ to get greater power, which wouldn’t have been said if this fusion already supersedes their respective forms. While this statement isn’t made by a WOG, it should still hold value as it’s a statement implemented by the author which holds no narrative value to be a lie.
Kale was not on par with SSJG Goku, even SSJ3 goku could block their attacks with his aura alone, so her base fusion being superior to Goku is quite literally impossible.

 

[KingNanaya]

actually, put me in agree

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

So you’re saying it has to be under 100? Or nah I’m confused by this comment

That is exactly what I'm saying, yes
The existence of terms that convey values of three decimal places and beyond make the use of tens of times obsolete in those cases.​

 

[Shadyboi0]

I agree.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I disagree with God scaling above Fusion multplier.

Once again, there is no set fusion multiplier

The Daizenshuu never states that it’s the strength of their strongest forms being multiplied, only that their strength is being multiplier, and increased even further.

So what? This is just being pedantic. We know from the series itself that fusion results in a warrior much stronger than what the fusees on their own are capable of

In the manga, it’s said said that they should fuse while in SSJ to get greater power, which wouldn’t have been said if this fusion already supersedes their respective forms

A fusion going Super Saiyan does not contradict the fusion's base being stronger than the fusees' maximum. What are you on about?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

How would that even work in actuality, mathematically speaking?

Joules x Joules? But that's subjective to perspective. 9 Foe x 9 Foe is 81 Foe, but 9e44 Joules x 9e44 Joules is 81e88 Joules which is... more than 81 Foe by a factor of 44 zeros.

In the manga, it’s said said that they should fuse while in SSJ to get greater power, which wouldn’t have been said if this fusion already supersedes their respective forms.

You mean Gotenks' training with Piccolo? That was because he was under the impression they wouldn't be able to transform after fusing (not fusing as SSJ actually being a higher boost in itself), that's why he had that moment of relief when Gotenks fought Buu in the RoSaT later and transformed while fused.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Once again, there is no set fusion multiplier

he’s trying to scale God above this multiplier though, maybe I misread.

So what? This is just being pedantic. We know from the series itself that fusion results in a warrior much stronger than what the fusees on their own are capable of

We know that the fusion multiplies the strength of A and B, and increase it some more on top. That’s what we know.
For example.
If Base Goku and Vegeta during Buu saga is a 10,000 each, and ssj3 is let’s say 1,000x base, then Ssj3 Goku would be 10,000,000 with base Vegito being 100,000,000> just based on their base powers being multiplied, either works but nothing states it’s their strongest forms multiplied. While nothing changed, the idea that it’s their strongest forms is essentially baseless.

A fusion going Super Saiyan does not contradict the fusion's base being stronger than the fusees' maximum. What are you on about?

I never said this? What? I said, if the fusion already produces a boost multiplying their maximum powers then going ssj first to gain a greater boost is dubious. It completely goes against that belief. Regardless, this doesn’t really effect anything.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

You mean Gotenks' training with Piccolo? That was because he was under the impression they wouldn't be able to transform after fusing (not fusing as SSJ actually being a higher boost in itself), that's why he had that moment of relief when Gotenks fought Buu in the RoSaT later and transformed while fused.

This much is true. I just read it, but as I said earlier, it’s importance doesn’t really matter, but I do believe the strongest form x strongest form is false.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I agree. Most of the arguments about fusion and God don't really matter because Goku didn't think even bother trying to use vegito, but went for SSG. The show itself is telling us SSG > Vegito in that moment, so its super cut and dry for me.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This much is true. I just read it, but as I said earlier, it’s importance doesn’t really matter, but I do believe the strongest form x strongest form is false.

Sure, I think the statement in Super is incompatible with strongest form x strongest too. I believe it's strongest form plus strongest form, multiplied by tens of times resulting in the Base Fusion's power. I believe that's the most consistent interpretation

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That is exactly what I'm saying, yes
The existence of terms that convey values of three decimal places and beyond make the use of tens of times obsolete in those cases.​

Bruh you’re arguing that fusion is less than 100x multiplier than

Once again, there is no set fusion multiplier

So what? This is just being pedantic. We know from the series itself that fusion results in a warrior much stronger than what the fusees on their own are capable of

A fusion going Super Saiyan does not contradict the fusion's base being stronger than the fusees' maximum. What are you on about?

This kinda just proves what I’ve already said Potara is A * B

You mean Gotenks' training with Piccolo? That was because he was under the impression they wouldn't be able to transform after fusing (not fusing as SSJ actually being a higher boost in itself), that's why he had that moment of relief when Gotenks fought Buu in the RoSaT later and transformed while fused.

Instead of joules x joules it should just be whatever last quantifiable BP was x itself for a lowballed potara fusion since it’d be a good lowball and is consistent with what we’re shown but sadly like how Ssj is stated to multiply your bp by 50x

he’s trying to scale God above this multiplier though, maybe I misread.

We know that the fusion multiplies the strength of A and B, and increase it some more on top. That’s what we know.
For example.
If Base Goku and Vegeta during Buu saga is a 10,000 each, and ssj3 is let’s say 1,000x base, then Ssj3 Goku would be 10,000,000 with base Vegito being 100,000,000> just based on their base powers being multiplied, either works but nothing states it’s their strongest forms multiplied. While nothing changed, the idea that it’s their strongest forms is essentially baseless.

I never said this? What? I said, if the fusion already produces a boost multiplying their maximum powers then going ssj first to gain a greater boost is dubious. It completely goes against that belief. Regardless, this doesn’t really effect anything.

no he’s scaling base potara to above ssj3 and then ssj3 on top of it which would be weaker than ssjg at that point due to potara being A*B
There’s no set multiplier it’s similar to how we get SSJB’s “multiplier”

Though I can see your point notging suggests it’s the strongest form stuff like implied but the statement is still A*B A*B at one point in time can be weaker than the ssjg multiplier and then in another point of time be stronger than the SSJG multipled making it consistent which is what I take you agree with?

Conclusion
Vegito SSJ3 (Doesn’t matter if you do Vegito ssj2 since same multiplier but ssj3 makes more sense)>Vegito Base>SSJ3>SSJ2 multiplier

Therefore ssjg is whatever 1k*1k is too lazy to do the math

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I agree. Most of the arguments about fusion and God don't really matter because Goku didn't think even bother trying to use vegito, but went for SSG. The show itself is telling us SSG > Vegito in that moment, so its super cut and dry for me.

What about my argument referring to ssjg multiplier not being the same as when he firsy transformed?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

What about my argument referring to ssjg multiplier not being the same as when he firsy transformed?

I don't find it convincing.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

no he’s scaling base potara to above ssj3 and then ssj3 on top of it which would be weaker than ssjg at that point due to potara being A*B
There’s no set multiplier it’s similar to how we get SSJB’s “multiplier”

Ik, but his means of doing so I disagree with. If this is accepted, then we shouldn’t say its strongest form x strongest form, as this much is unknown.

Though I can see your point notging suggests it’s the strongest form stuff like implied but the statement is still A*B A*B at one point in time can be weaker than the ssjg multiplier and then in another point of time be stronger than the SSJG multipled making it consistent which is what I take you agree with?

I agree that the stronger their base is, the stronger the fusion is.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I don't find it convincing.

For what reason exactly?
Caulifla and Kale went from ssj2 Goku level to above ssjg level in base form, while suppressed. This shouldn’t be possible.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

For what reason exactly?
Caulifla and Kale went from ssj2 Goku level to above ssjg level in base form, while suppressed. This shouldn’t be possible.

I don't see why it is impossible. It's their power combined multiplied by tens of times. If SSG is x50 SSJ3, then that fits according to the multipliers we have.