Suika Ibuki (Touhou Project) vs. Meteor Survivor (Final Fantasy XIV) | GRACE

[Quibster]

• Both are 2-C, Meteor is in his Post-HW Key
• Meteor is restricted to the Warrior (Tank) role
• Battle takes place on the barrens of the Moon (FFXIV)
• Both start 30 feet apart from each other
• Speed is Equalized

JAPANESE GOBLIN:

a TEST of your REFLEXES: ( Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Deidalius, @Stillwinston, Peppersalt43, crackervolley, Cimafranca133, JRockfish1 )

A hero and an oni walk into a bar:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES *chucks a black hole at the WoL *

WoL's power null is just kind of an instant win here, isn't it? Suika can't counter it, nor can she counter BFR. It's not like Suika is completely screwed, since I think her own power null combined with things like black holes or layered mind hax are solid wincons. However, this is barring the fact that the WoL has a lot of ways to avoid such things (that precog + info analysis is pretty busted), or finish the fight before Suika even gets a chance to use them. So, I'm going with WoL for now, assuming better arguments don't show themselves.

 

[Quibster]

A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES *chucks a black hole at the WoL *

WoL's power null is just kind of an instant win here, isn't it? Suika can't counter it, nor can she counter BFR. It's not like Suika is completely screwed, since I think her own power null combined with things like black holes or layered mind hax are solid wincons. However, this is barring the fact that the WoL has a lot of ways to avoid such things (that precog + info analysis is pretty busted), or finish the fight before Suika even gets a chance to use them. So, I'm going with WoL for now, assuming better arguments don't show themselves.

vote counted for now

 

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[Rakih_Elyan]

We dont have endbringer key?

 

[Hypertornado099]

A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES *chucks a black hole at the WoL *

WoL's power null is just kind of an instant win here, isn't it? Suika can't counter it, nor can she counter BFR. It's not like Suika is completely screwed, since I think her own power null combined with things like black holes or layered mind hax are solid wincons. However, this is barring the fact that the WoL has a lot of ways to avoid such things (that precog + info analysis is pretty busted), or finish the fight before Suika even gets a chance to use them. So, I'm going with WoL for now, assuming better arguments don't show themselves.

He used the power null like one time, and in that scenario it was because he was removing the power from Ultima Weapon that Gaius stole. So he most likely will not use it in this fight. Furthermore, this power null is done by tearing out the essences of the Primals that Ultima Weapon stole so its not really power null. I don't think the Warrior of Light has ever used BFR primarily to win a fight, in Lahabrea's case he just sent him there to destroy him. WoL will not banish Suika to that realm and leave her there, he would just continue fighting

Also, how does the "power to experience the future and everything that can and will happen" work? If it takes time, can't Suika just interrupt it

 

[Quibster]

He used the power null like one time,

Interject is listed as Power Null under his tank role actions. It could be very likely used to disrupt Spell Cards in this fight.

and in that scenario it was because he was removing the power from Ultima Weapon that Gaius stole. So he most likely will not use it in this fight.

In context, it was a direct intervention from Hydaelyn. Throughout that entire first half of the fight, she was assisting Meteor via stripping the Ultima Weapon of it's primal-fueled power— through the Crystals of Light that Meteor had collected throughout ARR. Lahabrea elaborates this after the first part of the fight. And makes it clearer before the start of the second half after tanking Ultima.

Hydaelyn also intervenes again to help Meteor defeat Lahabrea, as seen here in this final cutscene. There's really nothing that implies that she couldn't do it again in that instance, even after warping them to the Aetherial Sea and the Ultima feat (she strips Lahabrea's essence from Thancred's body anyhow). We also very clearly see that the Crystal's powers were, at the very least, needed to perform this feat in particular to do so.

I don't think the Warrior of Light has ever used BFR primarily to win a fight, WoL will not banish Suika to that realm and leave her there, he would just continue fighting

Maybe true? ( I've forgotten later portions of the MSQ due to raid brain-rot ) She'll also have a 2-A Hydaelyn to deal with if he BFR's her to the Aetherial Sea.

Also, how does the "power to experience the future and everything that can and will happen" work? If it takes time, can't Suika just interrupt it

I'm too lazy to grab scans of this ( plus Heavensward is boring to comb through )

Could a supporter elaborate on this one?

 

[Quibster]

Forgot to equalize speed. Oops!

Edit: The lack of characters on the XIV page is almost criminal

 

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[Shmooply]

tfw still cant fix the ff14 profiles due to me unable to resub and imgur ******* making me unable to access my account

( plus Heavensward is boring to comb through )

kill this man imminently

Could a supporter elaborate on this one?

Meteor can assess the strength and width of an attack he has never seen before, and it's been shown to work against the likes of FF14 Alexander, who could process every single probability and could see through the entirety of the past, present, and future. This analysis has shown to be combat-applicable. It also works on type 4 acausals such as Exdeath, but I think 2ho's have layered acausality (I wasn't paying attention to the acausality thread lol lma-).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

but I think 2ho's have layered acausality (I wasn't paying attention to the acausality thread lol lma-).

that'd be news to me lmao

 

[Shmooply]

that'd be news to me lmao

I may be stupid.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I may be stupid.

worry not miei fratelli.... there will be plenty of acausality wank once the revisions drop.....

 

[Shmooply]

Oh boy! I can't wait for those to drop on the same day the lunar society falls!

 

[Quibster]

kill this man imminently

cries in running across dravania for 30 hours

Meteor can assess the strength and width of an attack he has never seen before, and it's been shown to work against the likes of FF14 Alexander, who could process every single probability and could see through the entirety of the past, present, and future. This analysis has shown to be combat-applicable. It also works on type 4 acausals such as Exdeath, but I think 2ho's have layered acausality (I wasn't paying attention to the acausality thread lol lma-

Aaaahh that explains it. Ty for the insight.

 

[Hypertornado099]

This analysis has shown to be combat-applicable.

I can't tell which part of this clip shows the WoL using this precog

 

[Shmooply]

I can't tell which part of this clip shows the WoL using this precog

That's because it's supposed to show Alexander's analysis.

 

[Hypertornado099]

That's because it's supposed to show Alexander's analysis.

I wanna know WoL's analysis feats

 

[Shmooply]

I wanna know WoL's analysis feats

Early on in his adventure, he could predict the shape and size of attacks from professions whose techniques and powers he barely knew anything about. This analysis and precog obviously improved later on as he can predict which attacks will actually fatally wound him as well as the specific weaknesses of other attacks he has never seen, with a majority of these attacks not being telegraphed by his opponent whatsoever.

An user of an artificial version of the Echo, Fordola, could analyse and predict a lot of the WoL's attacks:

WoL would later go on to defeat a more competent user of this artificial version of the Echo, with whom he had constant rematches with until he finally beat him.

Then there's the Alexander stuff I already brought up.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Early on in his adventure, he could predict the shape and size of attacks from professions whose techniques and powers he barely knew anything about. This analysis and precog obviously improved later on as he can predict which attacks will actually fatally wound him as well as the specific weaknesses of other attacks he has never seen, with a majority of these attacks not being telegraphed by his opponent whatsoever.

An user of an artificial version of the Echo, Fordola, could analyse and predict a lot of the WoL's attacks:

WoL would later go on to defeat a more competent user of this artificial version of the Echo, with whom he had constant rematches with until he finally beat him.

Then there's the Alexander stuff I already brought up.

The first one is not impressive, I could do that as well. They have clear indicators before the attack launched, which is how the player avoided them. Which part of the second clip shows him predicting which attacks will fatally wound him? As for him seeing the specific weaknesses of other attacks, I don't understand which part of the clip shows that. Are you referring to the arrows pointing at the player and the eye in the last example?

 

[Shmooply]

The first one is not impressive, I could do that as well. They have clear indicators before the attack launched

Except the indicators don't actually exist in-lore, it's the Echo showing him that.

Which part of the second clip shows him predicting which attacks will fatally wound him?

The marker.

As for him seeing the specific weaknesses of other attacks, I don't understand which part of the clip shows that. Are you referring to the arrows pointing at the player and the eye in the last example?

Yeah, and WoL can guess how those abilities work without seeing it before and without the enemy telegraphing them.

 

[Quibster]

The first one is not impressive, I could do that as well.

Being able to see those telegraphed AoE's and markers are the byproduct of the WoL's Echo. Other characters in the franchise that do not possess an Echo cannot see AoE/ telegraphed attacks at all. It's a gameplay mechanic that is canonical for Echo users in-verse ( I'm getting undertale verse flashbacks oh no )

Which part of the second clip shows him predicting which attacks will fatally wound him?

To contextualize:

The red marker hovering over the player in this recorded clip is called a Tank Buster. Mechanically speaking, it is signalling that a heavy-hitting attack is coming that requires mitigation, healing, and shielding to endure. Otherwise, it is fatal to anyone that isn't a Tank. (And our recorder friend is a DPS class. Sucks to be them.)

As for him seeing the specific weaknesses of other attacks, I don't understand which part of the clip shows that. Are you referring to the arrows pointing at the player and the eye in the last example?

Based on the examples linked by Shmooply, I'll address them in order starting after the Tank Buster link:

---

Example one, that's called a Flare Marker. It does damage based on ranged proximity. The closer you are to the object/player with the marker, the higher the damage. It's not dodge-able in most cases, but the further you are away, the less damage you take.

Example two, the one with the "arrows" is called a Stack Marker. It means that the attack requires more than one person to endure by standing close to one or more other players. In this case, WoL doesn't get the benefit of having another person to help. However have been instances of WoL enduring a stack marker without another person by using Rubble/ Debris as a substitute if they lack player support.

Example three, same as Example two, except there's a beam being thrown.

Example four, that's called a Donut AoE. And for that clip in particular, the only safe spot is at point-blank range.

Example five, the "eye" is called a Gaze Marker. In the game, it means to point your character's front side away from the Marker or you'll incur a negative debuff, effect, or even damage. To dumb it down, in-game this is usually shown to indicate that "oh hey this monster can petrify or stun you. look away!".

And as to how how this all relates to WoL, it's part of his Precog / Info Analysis. The Echo automatically designates an attack by giving it a marker, AoE, or telegraphed danger areas like the examples above. He'll effectively be able to tangibly recognize what kind of attack it'll be off the bat, will be able to see the scope of Suika's attacks before they're thrown, and act accordingly before said attacks are executed.

Additionally, WoL knows how long wind-up/ charge-ups for attacks take, such as Alexander's Timestop via Temporal Stasis. (It's indicated riiiiight next to his boss healthbar in the link. Look for the sudden orange-yellow bar that appears on the top part of the screen. )

 

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[Hypertornado099]

Being able to see those telegraphed AoE's and markers are the byproduct of the WoL's Echo. Other characters in the franchise that do not possess an Echo cannot see AoE/ telegraphed attacks at all. It's a gameplay mechanic that is canonical for Echo users in-verse ( I'm getting undertale verse flashbacks oh no )

To contextualize:

The red marker hovering over the player in this recorded clip is called a Tank Buster. Mechanically speaking, it is a heavy-hitting attack that requires mitigation, healing, and shielding to endure. Otherwise, it is fatal to anyone that isn't a Tank. (And our recorder friend is a DPS class. Sucks to be them.)

Based on the examples linked by Shmooply, I'll address them in order starting after the Tank Buster link:

---

Example one, that's called a Flare Marker. It does damage based on ranged proximity. The closer you are to the object/player with the marker, the higher the damage. It's not dodge-able in most cases, but the further you are away, the less damage you take.

Example two, the one with the "arrows" is called a Stack Marker. It means that the attack requires more than one person to endure by standing close to one or more other players. In this case, WoL doesn't get the benefit of having another person to help. However have been instances of WoL enduring a stack marker without another person by using Rubble/ Debris as a substitute if they lack player support.

Example three, same as Example two, except there's a beam being thrown.

Example four, that's called a Donut AoE. And for that clip in particular, the only safe spot is at point-blank range.

Example five, the "eye" is called a Gaze Marker. In the game, it means to point your character's front side away from the Marker or you'll incur a negative debuff, effect, or even damage. To dumb it down, in-game this is usually shown to indicate that "oh hey this monster can petrify or stun you. look away!".

And as to how how this all relates to WoL, it's part of his Precog / Info Analysis. The Echo automatically designates an attack by giving it a marker, AoE, or telegraphed danger areas like the examples above. He'll effectively be able to tangibly recognize what kind of attack it'll be off the bat, will be able to see the scope of Suika's attacks before they're thrown, and act accordingly before said attacks are executed.

Additionally, WoL knows how long wind-up/ charge-ups for attacks take, such as Alexander's Timestop via Temporal Stasis. (It's indicated riiiiight next to his boss healthbar in the link. Look for the sudden orange-yellow bar that appears on the top part of the screen. )

Except the indicators don't actually exist in-lore, it's the Echo showing him that.

The marker.

Yeah, and WoL can guess how those abilities work without seeing it before and without the enemy telegraphing them.

Where does it say that the indicator and AOE markers are canonically from the Echo?

 

[Quibster]

Where does it say that the indicator and AOE markers are canonically from the Echo?

You shouldn't really approach from a literal standpoint. The Echo gives you warnings and those indicators/markers are the gameplay consensus of the Echo at work. If you're looking for a hard example, we can look to the Stormblood MSQ.

Fordola, a character who had just attained an Artifical Echo, was able to foresee the movements of both Lyse and Alisae, and could effortlessly avoid each of their attacks. Moments after stomping Alisae in this cutscene, she cements this, saying: "I know what you can do. I've already seen it." Her calm and collected demeanor changes mere moments after seeing Meteor. Immediately after seeing Meteor, Fordola says "Even so, the odds are against me." before escaping.

Later, Krile gives insight into the matter. Lyse acknowledges that her attacks were predicted in that fight, and that Fordola had improved drastically after acquiring the Artificial Echo.

Urianger elaborates further on the matter at the start of this clip, which gives a lot of helpful insight as to how the Echo works in combat. This scene onwards consistently hammers that Echo users are able to "divine the intent" of another individual's aether. To quote Urianger directly:

"In calling upon Lady Alisae after her defeat, I was most intrigued to learn of the apparent effortlessness with which Fordola countered her attacks. 'Twas as if she knew the blade's destination ere it's journey began."

"A most impressive feat under any circumstances, but an almost miraculous one when considered in the context of Fordola's unfamiliarity with my lady's arts. How then, could she so perfectly predict an unknown opponent's every move?"

"After much deliberation, I surmised that Fordola may be possessed of a preternatural ability to divine meaning from the fluctuations of an individual's aether, and to instinctively react. To employ a metaphor, one might say that she was attuned to the whispers of my lady Alisae's soul."

Alphinaud acknolwedges that Urianger's description matches that of an Echo. While Krile gives her insight, saying:

"... In any event, if Urianger is correct, that would mean that these Resonant have been granted the power of the Echo via artificial means..."

Regarding the credibility of this claim, Krile is consistently shown to be the most educated person in the series with knowledge on the Echo. She's even a literal scholar on the subject, the most knowledgeable of it, and even possesses an Echo herself. In that scene, Krile confirms Urianger's theory, and that the phenomena surrounding Fordola's feats are indeed related to the Echo— being able to 'divine and perfectly predict an opponent they have never fought', to paraphrase lightly.

WoL can do the same, and it is indeed canonical. I would glance over more source material but this is the most notable explanation throughout the series. It would be akin to reading you a book if you werent tired of wall text already lol

 

[Hypertornado099]

You shouldn't really approach from a literal standpoint. The Echo gives you warnings and those indicators/markers are the gameplay consensus of the Echo at work. If you're looking for a hard example, we can look to the Stormblood MSQ.

Fordola, a character who had just attained an Artifical Echo, was able to foresee the movements of both Lyse and Alisae, and could effortlessly avoid each of their attacks. Moments after stomping Alisae in this cutscene, she cements this, saying: "I know what you can do. I've already seen it." Her calm and collected demeanor changes mere moments after seeing Meteor. Immediately after seeing Meteor, Fordola says "Even so, the odds are against me." before escaping.

Later, Krile gives insight into the matter. Lyse acknowledges that her attacks were predicted in that fight, and that Fordola had improved drastically after acquiring the Artificial Echo.

Urianger elaborates further on the matter at the start of this clip, which gives a lot of helpful insight as to how the Echo works in combat. This scene onwards consistently hammers that Echo users are able to "divine the intent" of another individual's aether. To quote Urianger directly:

"In calling upon Lady Alisae after her defeat, I was most intrigued to learn of the apparent effortlessness with which Fordola countered her attacks. 'Twas as if she knew the blade's destination ere it's journey began."

"A most impressive feat under any circumstances, but an almost miraculous one when considered in the context of Fordola's unfamiliarity with my lady's arts. How then, could she so perfectly predict an unknown opponent's every move?"

"After much deliberation, I surmised that Fordola may be possessed of a preternatural ability to divine meaning from the fluctuations of an individual's aether, and to instinctively react. To employ a metaphor, one might say that she was attuned to the whispers of my lady Alisae's soul."

Alphinaud acknolwedges that Urianger's description matches that of an Echo. While Krile gives her insight, saying:

"... In any event, if Urianger is correct, that would mean that these Resonant have been granted the power of the Echo via artificial means..."

Regarding the credibility of this claim, Krile is consistently shown to be the most educated person in the series with knowledge on the Echo. She's even a literal scholar on the subject, the most knowledgeable of it, and even possesses an Echo herself. In that scene, Krile confirms Urianger's theory, and that the phenomena surrounding Fordola's feats are indeed related to the Echo— being able to 'divine and perfectly predict an opponent they have never fought', to paraphrase lightly.

WoL can do the same, and it is indeed canonical. I would glance over more source material but this is the most notable explanation throughout the series. It would be akin to reading you a book if you werent tired of wall text already lol

Thanks for the explanation. I still don't think this means the markers are a canon gameplay mechanic since its not implied enough but it should be enough to help WoL a lot in a fight with Suika.

So can someone explain what Suika will do?

 

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[Hypertornado099]

I looked at Gilgamesh's profile and realized Gilgamesh is 2-A in his key before FFXIV's. Why is that?

 

[Shmooply]

It's quite simple.







the profile sucks di-

 

[Hypertornado099]

... that means the Warrior of Light should be 2-A even in his first key

 

[Deidalius]

I am leaning to favor Warrior of light but don't count my comment as a vote yet.

 

[Quibster]

... that means the Warrior of Light should be 2-A even in his first key

I will say that revisions are undoubtably needed for XIV pages and the lack thereof.

Both verses are getting them relatively soon, although I can only say that for XIV with mixed certainty. 2hu's are suppoed to get a 2-A upgrade iirc

 

[Quibster]

Moving this along.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I cant think of anyone who could better explain 2hu's. Would you mind elaborating on Suika's ability? Thankyouuu

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Moving this along.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I cant think of anyone who could better explain 2hu's. Would you mind elaborating on Suika's ability? Thankyouuu

Suika has the ability to control denisty, letting her gather and disperse objects. This can compress objects to make them hot, deconstruct physical matter into vapor, magnify or cancel earthquakes, and so on. She can throw fireballs by gathering heat, disperse a person's spiritual energy (one's mind/soul/emotions/chi/stamina/physical statistics in Touhou), create black holes, gather undergound qi veins, control people's feelings and sentiments, disperse herself into hundreds of thousands of bodies at once, and just... generally do a lot of shit lol