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Strongest Character for Every Tier 30

I really don't think being cursed by a god should count as "outside help" anyway.

It'd be one thing if there were absolutely no way to get around it due to said god slapping every possible approach out of the way, actively. But in Cain's case (IIRC), he's just a guy who's been cursed.

And rather ironically, Caine from WoD is literally the same scenario of "you get hit sevenfold by whatever you try to kill him with" (that's one of the few things I know about WoD by reputation), and I'm pretty sure that comes from something that his God bestowed upon him. So if nothing else, we're pulling a real double standard right now, because that character has gotten to stay in his spot on this list thus far.
 
The sevenfold curse was fine with Cain it's just that the Presence intervenes when anyone tries to do anything to Cain, that makes incap impossible, which is what people decided that counts as the outside help.
 
Ogbunabali said:
The sevenfold curse was fine with Cain it's just that the Presence intervenes when anyone tries to do anything to Cain, that makes incap impossible, which is what people decided that counts as the outside help.
Click to expand...
What? This doesn't happen.

The Presence doesn't come in and pimp slap the person who slapped Cain.

Where did you get that?
 
If that's what people think is the case with DC Cain, you guys really need to do some research.

I don't even think Sandman1 was arguing that much, and he's the one who created the page.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Cain was gonna get destroyed by Enlil at this point so it doesn't matter how he would have dealed with Ba
Click to expand...
What how?

Cain's shit is 1-A.

Enlil's is 1-B to High 1-B?


How can Cain lose?
 
The Cain thing was mostly about the argument that [Insert any form of non-harmful incapacitation here] wouldn't work, because otherwise Lucifer would have used it against Cain.

That's were the entire thing with the Presence, in universe, protecting Cain came in.
 
I didn't misconstrue anything. The argument was "the Presence would do something if anyone does anything to Cain because Lucifer was scared of him".
 
DontTalkDT said:
The Cain thing was mostly about the argument that [Insert any form of non-harmful incapacitation here] wouldn't work, because otherwise Lucifer would have used it against Cain.
That's were the entire thing with the Presence protecting Cain came in.
Click to expand...
I can say with certainty that said argument is a load of crap.

This is the scan that says Lucifer didn't want to try anything against him. Notice how it explicitly mentions "harming" Cain rather than say, teleporting him somewhere else, putting him to sleep, etc?

The context is that, had they sent anyone else as a messenger, that messenger would have been killed. Not "incapacitated", not "inconvenienced", not "moved somewhere else", not "defeated in some way that wouldn't hurt him". Killed. Messily.

Using this to say that "nothing you could possibly do to Cain will ever circumvent the curse, because Lucifer didn't do it out of fear of the Presence stepping in" has to be the biggest overextrapolation I've seen since the time we gave the cake Mid-Godly regen because "it always comes back from damage and it doesn't have a soul".
 
Ogbunabali said:
I didn't misconstrue anything. The argument was "the Presence would do something if anyone does anything to Cain because Lucifer was scared of him".
Click to expand...
No, the argument was that if Lucifer couldn't outthink Cain's curse then no one below Lucifer's intelligence or power could either because Lucifer was notoriously brilliant and powerful 1-A being.

Then people said the only reason that Lucifer didn't hurt Cain was that The Presence would hurt Lucifer in-verse if he tried anything. And that since The Presence can't do that in Vs Battles, that the Mark can be outsmarted.

I said that was bullshit because The Presence isn't like that. I also said I wasn't sure about if non-lethal methods would be reflected, and that someone should ask Sandman or someone else more knowledgable than me.


And then we stopped talking about it.
 
I don't think Luficer was so much trying to fight Cain as he was saying "Yeah even I can't do anything about that guy". He could probably outsmart him or trick him into just leaving if Cain was obstructing him.

The Presence can theoretically do whatever it wants though.
 
Warren Valion said:
What how?

Cain's shit is 1-A.

Enlil's is 1-B to High 1-B?


How can Cain lose?
Click to expand...
Nah, a character with the same kind of BFR where they reorientate cyberspace worked on a potentially 1-A being. Reorientating Cyberspace would have worked on him anyway, even if it was just High 1-B . Enlil's type 9 also means that Cain has no way to put him down either
 
The issue was less the curse and more people acting like The Presense will personally kill anyone who does anything to Cain
 
Wokistan said:
I don't think Luficer was so much trying to fight Cain as he was saying "Yeah even I can't do anything about that guy". He could probably outsmart him or trick him into just leaving if Cain was obstructing him.
The Presence can theoretically do whatever it wants though.
Click to expand...
@Wok:

If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, that is my point, yes.

Cain was sent to deliver a message. Lucifer is basically saying "if this messenger weren't Cain, me and my posse would kill him deader than dead". He's not saying "I'd never be able to do anything to this guy, even if it wasn't something that harmed him directly", and there's not a single instance where he has said such a thing.

Hell, in that same scan above, he's quite literally tied up, so that disproves the latter claim right there.

Hl3 or bust said:
The issue was less the curse and more people acting like The Presense will personally kill anyone who does anything to Cai
Click to expand...
And I'm here to tell you that those people are wrong.
 
Yeah the problem is weather or not Incap stuff would be reflected, afaik it hasnt shown the ability to do so so I think stuff like Mind Hax and BFR might work but I could be wrong.
 
PsychoWarper said:
Yeah the problem is weather or not Incap stuff would be reflected, afaik it hasnt shown the ability to do so so I think stuff like Mind Hax and BFR might work but I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
Cain can travel to The Dreaming with Dimensional Travel, which IIRC is a High 1-B realm - I might (probably) be wrong though.

So I am pretty sure that most BFR won't work.


Mind hax though, I don't know.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
I really don't think being cursed by a god should count as "outside help" anyway.

It'd be one thing if there were absolutely no way to get around it due to said god slapping every possible approach out of the way, actively. But in Cain's case (IIRC), he's just a guy who's been cursed.

And rather ironically, Caine from WoD is literally the same scenario of "you get hit sevenfold by whatever you try to kill him with" (that's one of the few things I know about WoD by reputation), and I'm pretty sure that comes from something that his God bestowed upon him. So if nothing else, we're pulling a real double standard right now, because that character has gotten to stay in his spot on this list thus far.
Click to expand...
WOD Caine is not on the list just because of his attack reflection.He is on the list because he has all of the mages power
 
Setsuna tenma said:
WOD Caine is not on the list just because of his attack reflection.He is on the list because he has all of the mages power
Click to expand...
What King is saying is that if DC's Cain's curse was considered outside help, then WOD Caine's curse should as well.

However, neither should be considered outside help.
 
What King is saying is that if DC's Cain's curse was considered outside help, then WOD Caine's curse should as well.

However, neither should be considered outside help.

The curse is just the 7x Attack Reflection, which is fair enough. What is not fair is Presence personally intervening and killing the people who hurt Cain, even though he has no real obligation to. The killing also doesn't happen automatically, taking some time after the event where someone attempted to hurt Cain (Judge Gallows).
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
The curse is just the 7x Attack Reflection, which is fair enough. What is not fair is Presence personally intervening and killing the people who hurt Cain, even though he has no real obligation to. The killing also doesn't happen automatically, taking some time after the event where someone attempted to hurt Cain (Judge Gallows).
Click to expand...
The Presence isn't personally killing people.

Cain's curse also has the added effect of bringing Seven weird disasters to those who harm Cain, said disasters are what killed Judge Gallows.

And the curse was bestowed and enforced by The Presence, so technically The Presence is the one who killed Judge Gallows, but it isn't like he just pops up and smites the dude. It's the disasters that were bestowed upon the Judge because of The Presence's curse, not The Presence himself.
 
He can't beat the 24-D god girl or GER, so he can't take the 8-C spot

And for 9-B there's Ban and Abake with their 2-B passive law hax and a guy with high 1-B defence against everything, so the SIM has not even a remote chance to take that spot
 
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