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Strongest Character for Every Tier 28

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Overlord4896 said:
i am not incrediably knowledgble about this but i dont think you can claim that the ladder is equal to the gates since the difference between each gate is as far as i understand the difference between a 3D being to a 1A being which is quite massive and then the ultimate gods transend all of this by also a very massive margin. i think there was even a debate about this about bern vs shub-niggurath and it was a stomp in favor of shub-niggurath and quite obviously, shub is nothing compared to yog who is comparable to feathrine who is nothing compared to azatohth.
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>i am not incrediably knowledgble about this but i dont think you can claim that the ladder is equal to the gates since the difference between each gate is as far as i understand the difference between a 3D being to a 1A being

The conceptual hierarchy is reached when you attempt to go to a higher step of the world, one step encompasses the concepts of coordinates, dimensions, reality, space, time, laws, and incomprehensible concepts. Also meaning the difference between a dimensional object and a object that transcends dimensions are still lesser than a single layer or step within the hierarchy since all of those concepts are just the beginning of a single step.

>the ultimate gods transend all of this by also a very massive margin.

There's the Ultimate Gate which merely the final gate, then beyond that is the Ultimate Gods, they are beyond all Gates, I don't remember there being a statement that they are transcendant over it.

>i think there was even a debate about this about bern vs shub-niggurath and it was a stomp in favor of shub-niggurath and quite obviously, shub is nothing compared to yog who is comparable to feathrine who is nothing compared to azatohth.

Not quite.

And Bern destroys Shub, as Bern is protected by Featherine, as Bern is her Miko. To attack Bern is to attack Featherine.
 
the outer gods cant be killed at all and nothing can be done to harm them in anyway except for azathoth awakening.

and here is the thread i meantioned: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2093052

to attack shub is to attack yog-sothoth and i can tell you there is no way for feathrine to harm yog as the only thing that can actually wipe him is azathoth awakening and even then it is heavily implied yog would just rejoin into azathoth and become one with him.
 
Udlmaster said:
Not quite.

And Bern destroys Shub, as Bern is protected by Featherine, as Bern is her Miko. To attack Bern is to attack Featherine.
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What...? Of course not.

Saying this happens in a thread is like saying if a character fights Yamcha Goku will appear and blast them to Oblivion.

Even if we could actually count that argument - which we can't since it's the textbook definition of Outside interference- Featherine was basically sipping tea and watching like "Whatever" in the final battle which involved Bern.
 
FateAlbane said:
What...? Of course not.

Saying this happens in a thread is like saying if a character fights Yamcha Goku will appear and blast them to Oblivion.

Even if we could actually count that argument - which we can't since it's the textbook definition of Outside interference- Featherine was basically sipping tea and watching like "Whatever" in the final battle which involved Bern.
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No, you obviously don't understand.

This is protection from Featherine, it's her active powers and protection that will cause Featherine to appear, any attack made on Bern is an attack on Featherine. No matter what, Featherine is involved in this fight.

Much like the Cain and The Pressence.

It's not Outside interference, by that Logic, Endless and Pressence cannot protect Cain in anyway and thus, Cain is useless.
 
Overlord4896 said:
the outer gods cant be killed at all and nothing can be done to harm them in anyway except for azathoth awakening.
and here is the thread i meantioned: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2093052

to attack shub is to attack yog-sothoth and i can tell you there is no way for feathrine to harm yog as the only thing that can actually wipe him is azathoth awakening and even then it is heavily implied yog would just rejoin into azathoth and become one with him.
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Outer Gods cannot be killed in a conventional way, to say they cannot be killed is for 1 a NLF and two wrong, as you yourself admit that Azathoth waking up kills them.

So, no, you can kill a Outer God, it's just not going to be easy.

NLF, Featherine very much can fight Yog-Sothoth. Yog-Sothoth's cosmology, which he represents is less than the Umineko Cosmology.

Also, this "heavy implication", I'd like to see it, because I've never seen it.
 
FateAlbane said:
@Setsuna That's why I didn't even question any ratings.
But the idea that if someone fights Bern, Featherine herself will always come and say "BlahDie." is again, like imagining if you fight a Chaos Champion like Kharn, Khorne nukes you.
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False equivalency.
 
@Udl What? No. Featherine's power NEVER protected Bern from anything in the entirety of the novel.

Bern isn't even always Featherine's miko as some episodes have Ange taking that role.

The one time Featherine interfered in anything in Bern's favor was after she had been fighting Lambda for a long while - a fight Featherine herself was aware of, mind you, but still did nothing. There wasn't any interference, no power of Featherine tipping the balance for Bern to win against Lambda, they were fully 50/50 chances there.

At that point after a loooong fight with again, 0 interference from any of her powers in Bern's favor, Featherine herself came along, said it was about time to get the key to open the Book of Single Truth and Bern said "lol Feather is here now, it's game Lambda." to which Lambda attacked again and then Featherine nuked her.

It wasn't Featherine's power helping Bern win. It was her, the character arriving IN PERSON and saying "'k, we have to move on with the plot. Die."

Right after that Manifestation!Bern fights Battler and Ange right under Featherine's nose and Featherine does ABSOLUTELY nothing in her favor.

Nor there isn't any mention in the entire novels or manga about Featherine's power working in Bern's favor in any manner whatsoever. At some point Bern's manifestation outright screams: "Hey Featherine, your miko is being beaten up in front of you! What are you standing there for?" to which Featherine answers something that can be translated around the lines of "Eff it, Bern."
 
Overlord4896 said:
i dont think outside interfernce is included in these debates so i think your argument about feathrine is mute.
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You can have outside beings help you in a fight, Summoning, Curses, Blessing etc.
 
Pretty sure that how Yog compares to Featherine is irrelevant considering the fact that Umineko is under heavy, if stalling, revisions
 
Udl, legitimate question, have you actually read the manga and novels or are you pulling this out of overhype and whatever you read in some thread out there?

Because I can guarantee to you no Umineko supporter who actually read the materials would tell you that "Featherine's power is helping or protecting Bern to the point of Featherine herself nuking people in threads if they fight Bern". That. Makes. 0. Sense.
 
whats your evidence that the cthulu myhtos cosmology is lesser than umineko. i myself dont know if one is greater than the other.
 
>Bern isn't even always Featherine's miko as some episodes have Ange taking that role.

You can have more than one Miko, you do know that, right? Delta has 40, for example.

>The one time Featherine interfered in anything in Bern's favor was after she had been fighting Lambda for a long while - a fight Featherine herself was aware of, mind you, but still did nothing.

Sure, splattering and dismembering Delta and naturally killing her was obviously nothing.

You might argue "Well, that's because Delta went to attack her" but as Featherine herself says "An attack on my Miko is an attack on me, is it not?"

>At that point Featherine herself came along, said it was about time to get the key to open the Book of Single Truth and Bern said "lol Feather is here now, it's game Lambda." to which Lambda attacked again and then Featherine nuked her.

So, she didn't do nothing. And it was her Plot Manipulation that did that.

>Right after that Manifestation!Bern fights Battler and Ange right under Featherine's nose and Featherine does ABSOLUTELY nothing in her favor.

And why would Featherine have to help out in any way for that fight?

In her eyes, she may not have to help in the same way she did in the Delta fight.

As Featherine herself says, she's not a spectator, but a participant.
 
Overlord4896 said:
whats your evidence that the cthulu myhtos cosmology is lesser than umineko. i myself dont know if one is greater than the other.
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I literally went over that above.
 
i dont think your logic makes sense in that particaular area as each gate is vastly beyond the other and you categoraized them as in the same categorization.
 
The difference between less than a step was greater than what was described.

Going further and further up the ladder grants one more power and fewer restrictions.
 
Udlmaster said:
snip
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1. You can, doesn't mean they are always the ones fulfilling that role. Lambda's 40 Mikos are a direct reference to the number of characters in the game. She also references the entire audience with that Miko thing. Is Lambda reality level now since even the readers are just her mikos? Yeah. No.

2. Which, as I already said, happened after she arrived in person to get the Key to the book of the single Truth. Before that she had been fully aware of the fight happening and her powers did absolutely nothing in favor of Bern like say, Chaos God blessings do. Then eventually, after the fight had been happening for a long while, Featherine arrived and she did it with her own two hands. It wasn't "her power helping Bern" in any stretch of the imagination. It was Featherine herself, the character doing it. It wasn't any 'protection Bern has' or even Bern bringing her there in any manner whatsoever. Featherine personally had a cause of her own to arrive there and do something. If stuff like that happens in a thread it's again, the same as saying the Choushin come and kill you if you fight someone like Tenchi. Or the Kharn - Khorne example. It's textbook outside interference.

3. Featherine says that, yes. ...And your point is? Featherine was there. And did it with her own two hands out of her own volition, with her own powers. It. Had. Nothing. To do. With Bern's. Capacity. Powers. Or blessings. In any manner. Whatsoever! What's so hard to understand about this that it counts as powers of Featherine herself and actions she decided to take instead of "Because of Bern's protections, Featherine appears and nukes the opponent". You have literally 0 scans or proof to support this random thought.

4. Of course, you will dismiss another part that disproves your idea (which at this point is based on headcanon), with more headcanon. You have literally 0 proof of what you're saying and yet everything you support is the very definition of outside interference.
 
Let me say that I do not care about this whole CM vs Umineko debate going on.

I just don't want to hear this whole "You need to fight Featherine if you try to fight Bern in a VS Thread, she'll come and nuke the opponent" argument. That goes 120% against everything in the Novel/Manga.
 
This entire thing is disprove by the examples of Cain.

Because, the Seven-Fold curse as described by Lucifier was that "To whom slayth Cain, God shall given seven-fold."

And then there's the people who say that Cain cannot be be harmed mentally due to Dream, who would just recreate him.
 
@Udl These are specific blessings/curses the characters themselves have been granted and work as part of their powersets.

Note how regardless of how they work, it's also the characters who possess them doing the fighting.

Not the same case as the miko case for Featherine and Bern. It grants no extra powers or abilities of Featherine for Bern to channel, rely on. Nor does it mean Bern herself can do anything that relates to Featherine's power.

In-verse, the Miko thing means Featherine herself can freely decide she wants to nuke the enemy because they're getting in the way of her entertainment if they interrupt her miko.

But that is not done through Bern in any manner. It's Featherine taking matters in her own hands, out of her own volition and decision, and thus the opponent at that point would no longer be Bernkastel, but Featherine taking her place in the exact same vein as outside interference.
 
Udlmaster said:
Also, we can continue this elsewhere, since we're derailing.
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But I agree on the derail thing. I don't care about who stays on the 1-A spot, nor do I want to argue which one should be.

For me we could end this here, actually. As always, thanks for the discussion anyways, and sorry if anything I said sounded rude. o/
 
FateAlbane said:
Snip
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Naturally, our discussion was purely intellectual, and it was a good, I didn't think you were being rude, it's much harder to convay emotions when in a text debate than verbal.

I'll be more than glad to have another discussion with you another time.
 
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