Stat pages should have associated calculations linked

[Anasurimbor_Kellhus]

Like the title says. I find it hard to sometimes gauge whether the stats on a character's page is really accurate without an actual calculation page linked to their stats. For example, attack potency, durability, or speed should have both feats and associated calculations. Even just feats would be okay so that we can at least criticize or begin to estimate the calcs for those feats.

Too often though, I only see a character's stat being placed at certain tiers with little to no explanation. You can see the confusion evident in certain discussion when people start questioning those stats. This is especially true for abilities that are more, shall we say, esoteric or abstract. Links to very specific scans, pages, or videos, detailing the explanation and implementation of those feats would be very useful.

This is also to reduce the likelyhood of people debating over what a character can or can't do in the actual VS threads.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, we are aware that some profiles that have little info with messy format; generally, the Staff ask for scans or calcs, and if there's any, and no one is willing to do so or find scans, the profile(s) are removed.

 

[Anasurimbor_Kellhus]

In the case of characters that lacks actual explanations, should we then assume that the stats are inconclusive? I'm not keen on the idea of just accepting something without evidence.

WIth that said, even characters with actual feats and calcs should be open for re-evaluation if someone actually attempts it.

 

[Antoniofer]

If a character/verse has little info or justifications for they stats, it should be reported in a CRT, and then we see if we can fix it or delete it. Say page shouldn't be used in versus threads, and if is, people will realize that the stats are in someway bad.

 

[Jorus_C'baoth]

I was about to make a similar thread. Good thing I saw this. I second the need for a clear association between stats and calculations. No disrespect to whoever wrote those profile pages but people shouldn't have to just take that information at face value without any clear explanations. It makes VS threads a real pain when people take those stats as "Word of God" without any need to say more than just "look at the stats".

I've seen this shit too often in other sites I was a member of, and I'm told this forum was better, so I really hope that's the case.

 

[KinkiestSins]

It is somewhat an issue with the rarity of calcs and the life of a calcer. They have jobs, school etc. and math is hard.

So some verses have no calcs because it is self explanatory. Say Abeloth 'able to reshape the galaxy' or say, Vegeta 'going to turn the earth to ash' At a certain point, you can just forgo the need for the calc and just eyeball their AP. Of course, calcs are important and I take them over powerscaling somewhat. But it is more of a limitation in the users who can calc. As for those verses with already existing calcs, I agree.

I think most staff though seem ambivalent to this issue, so I doubt overnight we will see it fixed.

In other words, keep playing the 'jump into the rabbit hole game', where you jump from page to page to figure out who has the feat and why he/she scales.

 

[Anasurimbor_Kellhus]

Jorus: I understand your frustration. Truth be told, I made this thread specifically because I observed the same thing you criticized. I don't really know what I was expecting when I came to this site honestly. I just wanted to have a bit of fun, and engage in intelligent conversations regarding hypothetical battle scenarios. Sadly, more often I come across statements that seem to disregard opinions as irrelevant, especially if it isn't in line with what is commonly accepted. Bias are strong, resistance to accept differing views even stronger, especially when it comes to characters people are fanatical about. It all revolves mostly around the perceived validity of stats. It is often the crux of most arguments.

A common occurence, as you mentioned, is that on one hand you have people adamant about the validity of stats, despite many being based on assumptions anyway, and on the other you have people questioning the stats because they're not sure where they came from. Now disagreements are fine under most conditions, what kills constructive dialogue is when those that doubt are forced to accept what's established previously without any real reason to do so, and those that support the status quo ends most dialogue with a "take it or leave it" attitude.

Under ideal conditions, conversations that have degraded to the point where they are no more than a bunch of people trying to one-up the other or bring down each other's opinion can be fixed with a firm moderating hand. However, I understand perfectly the difficulty of trying to watch hundreds of posts in a day. It's not something that can be done if the moderating team is understaffed, and it's not reasonable to expect it either.

So can we do about it? Well, in my experience, when conditions can't be controlled by people, we need to establish systems of rules and regulations that are clear, and enforced. In this specific case I'm talking about, since the problem revolves around validity of stats, perhaps a new standard for making profiles need to be discussed.

I'm not one to offer just criticisms without any attempt at presenting a solution, so I may have a few ideas that I'd like to propose, but unfortunately I'm currently busy with work so I'll have to follow that up in a future post.

 

[Jorus_C'baoth]

Anasurimbor Kellhus: I hear you mate. VS Forums can be a bloody jungle sometimes. I'm kind of a veteran when it comes to VS forums, having come from some "other site" that I will not name. I left cause I was jaded. And of course I don't expect the mods to be available to moderate all discussions. So yeah, perhaps a stronger or clearer rules when it comes to posting stats is needed. I asked not to long ago if anyone can edit content, and I was kinda suprised to know that just about anyone has access to it. Rule says you're supposed to make a post on content revision threads, but apparently it's not always the case. So you get people posting stats that seems like it's pulled out their asses, and because not all stat pages can be moderated either, those that aren't critical just accept it as a given. Well, hopefully things will improve.

We definitely need to keep up this kind of conversation if we want things to get better

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Kellhus Unfortunately, you are just going to have to get used to this problem. It is not just an issue with us. We use scaling, calcs, feats etc to decide how strong someone is or is not. Keep in mind we have like, 10,000+ pages. It evades me at this moment of time, but we would have to go through so many pages that all of the admins and mods would be unable to tackle another project in a month. Right now, we have bigger problems like with the naruto forums calcs. Once we get that solved, likely we can tackle another problem like this. If you think however, this is a pressing issue, you may ask Antvasima or someone else to highlight this thread or comment down below.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that this is a problem, but regrettably we simply do not have the resources to inspect and provide calculations for over 12700 pages at once.

However, if you find a profile or verse that is particularly unreliable, you can report it in the following thread, so the staff can delete it:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/961615

Basically, we are doing our best, and constantly talk about how to make the statistics more reliable in content revision threads, but our task is beyond our abilities to ensure perfection.

 

[KinkiestSins]

^ Would duct tape for the scenario to be a rule for relavant calcs to be posted on the pages that scale or users of the feat in question?


For instance

Sora: Solar System Level (Superior to Zeus, who did a casual Large Star Level+ Feat/insert calc here.)

We dont have to change anything and it should trickle down to pages we make in the future.

Edit: The Rule would be like this.

Note it is highly recommended to link calcs for characters that scale with one another to avoid confusion with stats.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

That should be given.

It saves people from having to hunt down the feat or calc.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Although it is worth noting we are still having a problem with calcs from naruto forums, so any major upgrades on linking calcs will likely have to fall on the individual at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that it could be an idea to make a suggestion regulation in the Editing Rules page regarding that people should try to be more clear regarding what calculation or feat that the characters are scaled from. However, it is not realistic to start a massive wiki project for this purpose.

 

[Dark649]

The Narutoforum links shows Error and the Wayback Machine cannot proper gauge their former versions, it's a shame that the Narutoforum calcs are and will be not accessible.

 

[Antvasima]

Lina Shields and I have previously backed up quite a lot of the Narutoforums calculation links to the Wayback Machine, and the ones that have not been backed up can be accessed by those of our members who have 25 or more posts in their forum, then copied, pasted (and credited) to blogs in this wiki.

We will likely have to start a wiki revision project after 1 to 2 weeks from now.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

If it's a matter of compiling calcs, I can help do that.

I already have a few users bookmarked like Chaos, Kaiser and Iwan, plus I've had that account there for several years now, usually check in once in a blue moon.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, help to copy the calculations without backups to blog posts here (always give credit to whoever wrote the calculation) would be very appreciated once we get the wiki revision project started.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah I can manage that, I have free time anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.