Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)

[StoneKillerz12]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Tiering: 3-A. Realspace is the physical space inhabited by ordinary galactic residents, encompassed by both distance and volume and "other universes".

Hyperspace​

Tiering: High 3-A spatially, Low 1-C in it's entirety. Hyperspace is an infinitely large subspace and dimension of space-time in-between all points and distance in space, which allows for "practically infinite speed" in which spatial distance and the time and effort required to traverse it become irrelevant. Additionally, Hyperspace allows for the usage of time travel as it contains within itself more than three spatial dimensions along with one temporal dimension, and exists alongside and outside of ordinary space-time in realspace. Normal matter dissolves upon mere contact with Hyperspace energy. Additionally, objects found in Hyperspace, that being Hypergems, have been observed with having "planar networks" connecting to higher-dimensions beyond the four of space and time.

Otherspace​

Tiering: Low 1-C. Otherspace is a mysterious, slightly warped and "less vibrant" pocket realm beyond the boundaries of both Hyperspace and Realspace described by The Five as being "beyond dimensions" and as the final resting place of ships lost in Hyperspace. The "beyond dimensions" statement should be referring to the three-dimensional volume of Realspace.

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

Tiering: High 3-A. Sidious' force storms, which correlate directly with the power of his dark side hatred, were tearing at and bursting open the fabric of space and beginning to consume it in it's entirety. Said force storms covered the infinite distance between two points in Hyperspace, in which even the New Republic's rebel fleet could not escape from, draining Hyperspace of it's energy completely and empowering himself with it, allowing him to live as "energy itself" which could only be permanently defeated by the spirits of every single Jedi who's ever lived over the last 25,000 years forcibly dragging him into the Sith afterlife. As such, he should scale above the power of the Sith Holocron of Zigoola, which could manipulate the very fabric of Hyperspace and cause it to fade into darkness.

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

Tiering: Low 1-C. The Celestials completely exceed the physical forms they inhabit that are perceived by living beings, with their true forms residing in a totally unreachable dimension beyond both Hyperspace and Realspace, and thus should exist on par with the "planar networks" of Hypergems, which themselves extend into higher-dimensions beyond the three spatial dimensions and fourth temporal dimension, as well as the perception of Barriss Offee in the state of Oneness, which was able to perceive beyond four dimensions. They are responsible for the creation of all opposing timelines, of which there are an infinite number, which are otherwise insignificant to them.

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Tiering: Low 1-A. The Primary World resides at, and acts as, the zenith of all reality and as the place from which "all doors stem", encompassing all planes of existence and all things which could theoretically exist, from which were derived from and fashioned after the Primary World as aspects of it. Each universe and plane of existences are of an "entire piece", connected to all other pieces and stretching through and beyond all known and unknown dimensions connected by the vibrating strands of the Force, including those utterly beyond the ken of Barris Offee's senses when she had achieved Oneness, which stretched beyond four dimensions, and as such contains all dimensions.

Beyond Shadows​

Tiering: 1-A. Beyond Shadows is a place wholly devoid of all space and time, which themselves, along with all existence beneath it, are illusory and do not truly exist apart from being mere thoughts and dreams. The Force is all that truly exists in Beyond Shadows, just as it does in the illusory world. The distinction between thought and reality does not exist in Beyond Shadows, nor does the spatial or temporal position of a being within realspace have any significance in Beyond Shadows. Beyond Shadows cannot be achieved through manipulation of the Force alone, instead through meditation and "awakening", in particular the process of Mind Walking. Beyond Shadows is therefore one degree of qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology beneath it.

The Force​

Tiering: High 1-A+. The Force is an infinite, all-encompassing oneness beyond and utterly devoid of duality, as well as natural, spiritual, and metaphysical separation and differentiation. Both the Light and Dark sides of the Force, respectively, are nothing more than words of ignorance to the Force's fundamentally unknowable nature, which exceeds, as well as contains all of the supposedly distinct aspects of existence. The Force is both within and without, limitless, sublime, and wholly beyond true conception, and is ultimately and fundamentally distinct from all conceptualizations imposed upon it by the life which exists throughout it, whether it be as a non-sentient energy field governed by Midi-Chlorians, the sum and totality of all creation, an eternal entity, knowing and unknowable, the universe or existence, or even thought itself, they are all simply words, "half truths", or lies, in which it's "truth" will always be greater than any naming or conceptualization which can, has, or could ever be imposed upon it, none of which would ever reflect it's true nature, which defies explanation entirely.

These distinctions and separated conceptualizations would include The Cosmic Force or the Pneuma; a Jedi-given representation of the Supreme Maker which acts as the set of all conceptualizations in any mortal mind, a "unifying gestalt" and a metaphysical vision of the Galactic Whirlpool as well as all of reality, and is perceived as the concept of fate simply by limited understanding of it, The Unifying Force or the Apeiron; the underlying unity and ultimate equality between all seemingly distinct things, including the metaphysical and qualitatively superior realms such as Beyond Shadows, in which the Unifying Force operates through beyond the physical in the plane of thought and memory itself where all physical matter is dictated, The Living Force or the Anima; the representation of the binding life energy between all objects and their ontologies, The Physical Force; the binding relationship between all physical objects and their differentiations, and The Dark; the final, ineluctable and perpetual absolute non-existence which is the very abstraction of the inevitable end of all things, in which all existence is an illusion without substance to. As stated above, all of these conceptualizations and differentiations do not encompass The Force's true nature. The Force is all of reality and all of reality is the Force, along with all of it's differentiations and conceptualizations.

A much more profound, in-detail explanation for the nature of the aforementioned "The Dark" can be found here, which solidifies it as a very blatantly 1-A concept in Legends, in similar vain to Beyond Shadows mentioned above.

In short, The Force for all reasons above contains and exists throughout all qualities, meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, etc etc. that can be conceptualized throughout all differing and opposing realities. It is ineffeable, immutable, and beyond true definition and conceptualization. It is one with all and all is one with it. The Force is reality and reality is The Force. It is the ultimate permeation of life, time, and existence as a whole and the essence in which the mysterious "Father of Lights" enacts his will through. All of this should blatantly qualify for a High 1-A+ rating.

However, as briefly touched upon in the above paragraph, there is a few things preventing The Force from reaching tier 0. For one, it has separation and differentiation. While it's true nature could be recognized as lacking it, it's true nature can still be individually separated and conceptualized through it's varying aspects, which have been described as being "facets" of The Force. While these separated perceptions and conceptualizations of what The Force is, along with any and all other distinctions between what it could be are all contained within and exceeded by The Force's true nature, it can still be divided up into separated parts. The Force also has a beginning, as for what was briefly touched upon above, The Force was created by the mysterious supreme being of the Star Wars Legends cosmology; The Father of Lights, A.K.A the Supreme Maker. The Father of Lights is very reminiscient of Eru Ilúvatar from Tolkien's cosmology. It was described to have sung forth The Force from the first notes of a song, in the primal unduality of non-existence before all creation, in which The Force permeated the idea of existence and creation into being.

Therefore, The Force due to having both differentiation and having a beginning, it cannot be 0. However, what you probably picked up on by reading this, there is a character in Legends mentioned here that would undoubtedly qualify for tier 0, and that is the aforementioned Father of Lights/Supreme Maker mentioned in Supernatural Encounters.

The Father of Lights​

Tiering: 0. It is somewhat self-explanatory for why this being would be Tier 0. It exceeds a High 1-A+ cosmology, which was generated through itself as the permeation of all creation and it's differentiations. Normally, High 1-A+ is reached through reasoning of being the "ultimate essence of reality in which a tier 0 being can enact it's power freely through", but it would likely be the inverse here. The Supreme Maker/Father of Lights would be 0 based off of transcending a High 1-A+ cosmology, which by default would make it Tier 0.

There are, however, a few other things for The Father of Lights which would solidly justify a tier 0 rating. For one, it does not possess differentiation or separation at all, as both separation and differentiation did not exist in the primal unduality of non-existence before The Force, which contains both all separation and differentiation for reasons explained above, and itself lacks duality. On that note, it also is beyond duality completely, another qualification for tier 0. It also cannot be understood or manifested in any capacity in the same sense that The Force can be, it can instead only be theorized to exist based off of the limited imaginations and understandings of beings within The Force, as per The Cosmic Force/Pneuma. This however, is not a distinction and/or separation of the Father of Lights himself, nor even a "vessel" which it operates through in it's "dream". It's simply what mortals in the "dream" (I.E, The Force) perceive as "The Father of Lights".

Finally, what would be the most damning evidence would be the description of "All is One"; the most primal, profound simplicity of The Father of Lights. It lacks both duality and distinct parts, simply being itself and only itself in it's most simple aspect. Both Luke and Anakin, upon ascending to the Netherworld of The Force, return to and proceed to partake in The Father of Lights' simplicity, returning all of creation back to it's most simple, non-dual state.

For a slightly more detailed explanation into The Father of Lights and The Force in Legends, G1's Luke VS Saber blog explains a lot of it in these sections.

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Relevant peeps

@Guruguru69 (who I think provided most of this in the G1 Luke VS Saber blog but not too sure), @Ultima_Reality (who is most knowledgable on the High 1-A+ and 0 stuff, which I propose for the apex of Legends' cosmology)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Relevant peeps

@Guruguru69 (who I think provided most of this in the G1 Luke VS Saber blog but not too sure), @Ultima_Reality (who is most knowledgable on the High 1-A+ and 0 stuff, which I propose for the apex of Legends' cosmology)

Note - Normal users cannot ping staff. I recommend you call their wall or call a staff to tag others.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Note - Normal users cannot ping staff. I recommend you call their wall or call a staff to tag others.

Ah shit my bad

 

[Qawsedf234]

DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

I get Luke, but why the other three?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hyperspace​

Isn't this at least low 1-C..?

Edit: Looks like 1-C since it had more than both 3 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I get Luke, but why the other three?

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

 

[Hasty12345]

Hyperspace

Based on your description, this is no lower than low 2-C, even if the higher dimensions don't have quantitative superiority.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Based on your description, this is no lower than low 2-C, even if the higher dimensions don't have quantitative superiority.

it's just 1-C since the realm is infinite and has 4+2 dimensions.

 

[Hellbeast]

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

Wait do you have the source for that?

 

[Kaiou1991]

I agree with a lot of this but some of the tiering seems inconsistent.

As others have said, hyperspace should be low 1-C, your scans quite frankly prove that to be the case.

You also scale DE Sidious to the hyperspace but only scale him to the high 3-A portion, despite scaling him above something that could destroy the very fabric of hyperspace???

The argument your presenting isn't congruent with the scans you're using to present the argument. Hyperspace should be low 1-C and based on your own justifications, DE Sidious should be low 1-C as well IMO. Unless you have reasons to not do so?

 

[Cyberblader90]

The scan for destroying the fabric of hyper space doesn't seem to imply what the CRT is proposing

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

Do you have a source?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Hasty12345]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.

I see what you did there

 

[Cyberblader90]

Bump

 

[Guruguru69]

Relevant peeps

@Guruguru69 (who I think provided most of this in the G1 Luke VS Saber blog but not too sure),

I indeed did.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

I indeed did.

May I have your thoughts on this CRT? (And yes, this is Jordy/AAM in case you were wondering)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

Source or its fake.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah I think the feats are alright, just that the scaling needs to be sourced?

Unless you wanna do the scaling as a separate thread.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Yeah I think the feats are alright, just that the scaling needs to be sourced?

Unless you wanna do the scaling as a separate thread.

The sources are all in the Imgur links.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Source or its fake.

It's not fake. I obviously wouldn't mention a feat if it was fake. I'd have to look for it because we discussed it in a Star Wars debate scaling Discord, and I haven't been on said Discord in a while, so I'll need to look for the scan myself. I'll hopefully find it by the time I decide to upgrade Old Republic characters.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

ealspace​

Hyperspace​

Real space one is using the same scan on the “other universes” one.

Real Space is fine other than the “other universes”.

As others has say, it is definitely warranted for a Low 1C to potentially 1C Hyper Space

 

[StoneKillerz12]

I agree with a lot of this but some of the tiering seems inconsistent.

As others have said, hyperspace should be low 1-C, your scans quite frankly prove that to be the case.

You also scale DE Sidious to the hyperspace but only scale him to the high 3-A portion, despite scaling him above something that could destroy the very fabric of hyperspace???

The argument your presenting isn't congruent with the scans you're using to present the argument. Hyperspace should be low 1-C and based on your own justifications, DE Sidious should be low 1-C as well IMO. Unless you have reasons to not do so?

Sidious' force storms were only consuming space itself, not time. It therefore cannot be Low 2-C by default. Sidious also didn't rend the fabric of Hyperspace, he tore and ripped at the fabric of Realspace, which is only 3-A. Sidious' force storms, however, produced wormholes which covered infinite distance, which would grant High 3-A. Hyperspace itself is also High 3-A spatially. There's no proof Sidious effected the higher-dimensions in Hyperspace, which are only able to be accessed or even perceived through Hypergems. It's the same reason as to why Universal feats in Marvel aren't automatically High 1-B, despite Earth-616, Marvel's universe, having High 1-B realms.

Also, I fixed Hyperspace's tiering. It's now Low 1-C in it's entirety, not Low 2-C.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Real space one is using the same scan on the “other universes” one.

Real Space is fine other than the “other universes”.

As others has say, it is definitely warranted for a Low 1C to potentially 1C Hyper Space

That was a mistake. Here's the scan that calls them "other universes". Added this to the section too.

Also, I realized that and made Hyperspace Low 1-C in it's entirety. However, FRA in another reply, Sidious can't scale to it in it's entirety.

 

[Kaiou1991]

Sidious' force storms were only consuming space itself, not time. It therefore cannot be Low 2-C by default. Sidious also didn't rend the fabric of Hyperspace, he tore and ripped at the fabric of Realspace, which is only 3-A. Sidious' force storms, however, produced wormholes which covered infinite distance, which would grant High 3-A. Hyperspace itself is also High 3-A spatially. There's no proof Sidious effected the higher-dimensions in Hyperspace, which are only able to be accessed or even perceived through Hypergems. It's the same reason as to why Universal feats in Marvel aren't automatically High 1-B, despite Earth-616, Marvel's universe, having High 1-B realms.

Also, I fixed Hyperspace's tiering. It's now Low 1-C in it's entirety, not Low 2-C.

With this context, your Sidious rating makes way more sense.

I fully agree with the proposals.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That was a mistake. Here's the scan that calls them "other universes". Added this to the section too.

Also, I realized that and made Hyperspace Low 1-C in it's entirety. However, FRA in another reply, Sidious can't scale to it in it's entirety.

Okay, this is fine. I am also fine with Hyperspace tiering there

 

[Epyriel]

I have a few problems with the proposed revisions here, but the most pressing issue that I will start with is the canonicity of Supernatural Encounters.

To put it bluntly, it isn’t canonical in the slightest, and all the central authorities at Lucasfilm have confirmed it as such:

Back during the Hyperspace days, it would have to be reviewed by the editors from publishing before being posted. They nixed it before reviewing based on concept and length.
-Pablo Hidalgo over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2022081...r.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1559652872144297984

[When asked about the status of Supernatural Encounters:] The material never came to me for input into the Holocron nor did it get an official release. Tons of material got approved that didn't become part of the continuity of the EU. […] Unless it appears in an official source, it's not something I intend to track.
-Leeland Chee over Twitter, https://archive.ph/bKRoM

[Supernatural Encounters] never went through publishing editorial, so while full of neat ideas, it’s not part of anything official.
-Pablo Hidalgo over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2022081...r.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1558570320293818369

[When asked if Supernatural Encounters was official:] I mean, I guess not? It hasn't been reviewed by any editors that were associated with the EU as far as I know so I don't see why it would be official.
-Matt Martin over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2023083...r.com/missingwords/status/1696666706654175490

I don't think [Supernatural Encounters] was reviewed by anyone on my team. It was discussed as something that could potentially be published on http://StarWars.com probably over a decade ago but that never went anywhere.
-Matt Martin over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2023083...r.com/missingwords/status/1696664602791096351

[Supernatural Encounters] would have to have been blessed by the editors in publishing who declined and rejected the work.
-Pablo Hidalgo over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2023083...r.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1696678441540890945

I commissioned [Supernatural Encounters] for Hyperspace, but it was not to be.
-Pablo Hidalgo over Twitter, https://web.archive.org/web/2023083...r.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1696715035157119320

The only source provided for why it might be canonical provided here is from the author of Supernatural Encounters himself, who (understandably) wants the novel he put a lot of effort into to be considered an official part of the continuity. However Joe Bongiorno himself is not part of the Lucasfilm Story Group and certainly isn’t the manager of the Continuity Database; he has no authority to dictate whether a work is canonical or not.

The only arguments Joe himself provides is the fact that Supernatural Encounters completed the licensing process and that he didn’t receive an official notice of cancellation. Neither of which confirms a work as canonical. As Leland Chee (the official manager of the Holocron Continuity Database) has stated, the fact that it got approved for production doesn’t mean it is guaranteed to get an official release as a Lucasfilm publication (which Supernatural Encounters never got, being nixed by publishing editors before release) and it is only an official release that earns itself a spot in the continuity as an official source.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

I have a few problems with the proposed revisions here, but the most pressing issue that I will start with is the canonicity of Supernatural Encounters.

To put it bluntly, it isn’t canonical in the slightest, and all the central authorities at Lucasfilm have confirmed it as such:















The only source provided for why it might be canonical provided here is from the author of Supernatural Encounters himself, who (understandably) wants the novel he put a lot of effort into to be considered an official part of the continuity. However Joe Bongiorno himself is not part of the Lucasfilm Story Group and certainly isn’t the manager of the Continuity Database; he has no authority to dictate whether a work is canonical or not.

The only arguments Joe himself provides is the fact that Supernatural Encounters completed the licensing process and that he didn’t receive an official notice of cancellation. Neither of which confirms a work as canonical. As Leland Chee (the official manager of the Holocron Continuity Database) has stated, the fact that it got approved for production doesn’t mean it is guaranteed to get an official release as a Lucasfilm publication (which Supernatural Encounters never got, being nixed by publishing editors before release) and it is only an official release that earns itself a spot in the continuity as an official source.

Okay then, well does Supernatural Encounters have enough material to place it as a separate verse page, sort of like The Unwritten and Seekers into Mystery towards the larger DC cosmology?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

StarWars.com | Skywalker, Luke

web.archive.org

“Stranded on Coruscant, Luke began to discover strange clues in newly opened secret chambers throughout the former Imperial Palace, clues to the Emperor's power. Before he could piece together their significance, a raging Force storm appeared in the sky. The swirling vortex of dimension-altering energy consumed Luke, and deposited him far away on the Deep Core world of Byss. There, in an ornate citadel, Luke faced an enemy he had not ever expected to see again: Emperor Palpatine.”

Not too sure on that part, but it is cited on the Wikipedia page

This is from a private conversation regarding Star Wars on Forum, but basically it does describe Sidious’s Force Storm as being “dimension altering”, but that is about it

 

[Epyriel]

Okay then, well does Supernatural Encounters have enough material to place it as a separate verse page, sort of like The Unwritten and Seekers into Mystery towards the larger DC cosmology?

Sure, I feel it is long enough and notable enough to probably have its own separate verse page.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

This is from a private conversation regarding Star Wars on Forum, but basically it does describe Sidious’s Force Storm as being “dimension altering”, but that is about it

This seems more like a showing of Spatial Manipulation than it does any quantifiable AP.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This seems more like a showing of Spatial Manipulation than it does any quantifiable AP.

That is what I thought as well considering it did teleport Luke to elsewhere it seems

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Sure, I feel it is long enough and notable enough to probably have its own separate verse page.

“In this lost Expanded Universe book, called by some, "The Silmarillion of Star Wars," author Joe Bongiorno explores the dark corners of the EU to uncover the vast tapestry of connectivity that exists from the earliest works of Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas, and Alan Moore in the Marvel comics to the modern tales in West End Games, the Bantam series, Dark Horse Comics, New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, and even deeper lore from rare RPG sources, unpublished works, and the wider "Lucasverse." Journey with historian Arhul Hextrophon and his faithful droid companion, Cuenyne, as they seek the answers to mysteries as ancient as civilization itself in the one place no mortal dare tread—Otherspace!“

Probably doesn’t help when it mentions “Lost” Expanded Universe book is apparently published after those Twitter statements was made last year.

It does make me curious though on what happened if it did

 

[Epyriel]

“In this lost Expanded Universe book, called by some, "The Silmarillion of Star Wars," author Joe Bongiorno explores the dark corners of the EU to uncover the vast tapestry of connectivity that exists from the earliest works of Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas, and Alan Moore in the Marvel comics to the modern tales in West End Games, the Bantam series, Dark Horse Comics, New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, and even deeper lore from rare RPG sources, unpublished works, and the wider "Lucasverse." Journey with historian Arhul Hextrophon and his faithful droid companion, Cuenyne, as they seek the answers to mysteries as ancient as civilization itself in the one place no mortal dare tread—Otherspace!“

Probably doesn’t help when it mentions “Lost” Expanded Universe book is apparently published after those Twitter statements was made last year.

It does make me curious though on what happened if it did

He self-published it himself - it never got an official Lucasfilm release.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

He self-published it himself - it never got an official Lucasfilm release.

Hence why I say “On what happened if it did”.

Either way, how you feel about the Realspace and Hyperspace tiering at least?

 

[Epyriel]

Either way, how you feel about the Realspace and Hyperspace tiering at least?

Those both look solid, although I would ditch the “3-A spatially” part of Hyperspace and just call it Low 1-C. Not really sure I understand why the 3-A part of it was inserted, seems just a straightforward example of Low 1-C.

Might want to even bump that up to “At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C” considering Coruscant Nights states hyperspace comprises multiple higher dimensions.

I have some issues without the scaling of The Ones and DE Sidious, but I will write that up in a separate comment.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hyperspace should be 1-C not low 1-C since it's at least 6 dimensional with 4 spatial dimensions and 2 temporal. Since it has more spatial dimensions and temporal dimensions than we are familiar with

 

[Epyriel]

The other two matters of this proposal I would like to comment on are DE Sidious and The Ones.

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

I disagree that Sidious’ Force Storms should constitue Universal AP. While they do indeed tear at the seams of space itself, this is an effect of the Hyperspace Wormhole literally making a hole in space, not literally being able to destroy all space in a time efficient manner.

To qualify for 3-A you need to demonstrate an equivalent amount of power as being able to generate an omnidirectional explosion that destroys everything in a space at least equal to the Observable Universe. Sidious definitely can’t do that. Maybe if he had infinite time he could slowly guide Force Storms to eat everything, but for continuous effects the standard time assumption is a single second for calculating AP. Practically speaking he could ravage the surface of worlds with his storms in such time as an actual attack (which mimics his usage of his Storms against fleets), but nothing more than that. It would take him an impractical amount of time to even eat a moon, let alone the universe.

Thus I would maintain he should be listed as High 6-A: Multi-Continent level. This would match up with the destructive feats of other top tier Force users like Darth Vitiate and Darth Nihilus.

As for who scales to this, I agree with the listing of Vitiate, but I’m skeptical of the others. I guess you can include DE Luke if you add a key for his Force Harmony amp, but otherwise he was no match for Sidious. Similarly the Hero of Tython and Revan are more likely to get one-shot by Vitiate rather than scale to his full power.

The Ones/The Celestials​

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

I have two issues with this section of the proposal:
1) I believe the Ones’ scaling to the Force (and thus to Hyperspace) should constitute Environmental Destruction rather than raw AP scalable to their telekinesis.
2) FOTJ Abeloth and Luke should not scale to this.

Firstly, while I accept the logic of the Ones and Prime Abeloth affecting the entirety of the Force to very real consequence throughout the universe, I think there are good reasons to believe they cannot wield power on this scale in a direct clash of telekinesis.

For instance, Abeloth was imprisoned in the Maw constructed and maintained by Centerpoint Station (and later Sinkhole Station for its maintenance). The Maw was a collection of dozens of black holes whose gravitational pull combined with Centerpoint Station could keep Abeloth imprisoned (except in the few moments across thousands of years where there was sufficient chaos and war in the galaxy to amp Abeloth sufficiently to slip out, yet even in these cases she couldn’t wreck the stations).

This setup was described as a prison that could “hold beings of the architects’ power” indicating an inherent relativity between the Ones, Abeloth, and this prison. The prison itself shouldn’t be beyond Multi-Solar System level (with Centerpoint Station being capable of destroying Star Systems and the gravity of dozens of black holes being on a similar scale, but neither should be capable of reaching Galaxy level or beyond).

While some have suggested this might be because the black holes were nerfing Abeloth’s ability to use the Force so drastically and so suddenly that it might still serve as an effective prison despite the disparity in power to someone who actually has Low Complex Multiversal telekinesis, this seems doubtful as the Sith and Jedi that went to fight Abeloth inside the Maw never reported or seem to have felt or been affected to any significant degree, with even children who stayed near the black holes for years on end only suffering mild effects. It would be strange for a prison to be described as being able to contain beings of the Architects’ power actually needing at least decades of forced entrapment by outside forces to actually serve its purpose and live up to its hype, especially considering the Twins are never described as needing to supervise Abeloth for decades or more to actually keep her in her prison before she grew weak enough from the black holes to be properly contained.

Thus I believe the Ones and Prime Abeloth should all be listed as: 4-A; Low 1-C, possibly 1-C with Environmental Destruction

Secondly, Abeloth by FOTJ is far weaker than Abeloth in her prime. Abeloth regales to Sarasu Taalon after he becomes an entity like her that they need to feed on life energies to actually sustain themselves, else they grow weaker, with Sarasu Taalon especially growing astronomically weaker in a very short time without feeding, going all the way from someone who can overpower Luke Skywalker all the way down to someone who can be contended with by Ben Skywalker. Abeloth on the other hand went thousands of years in a row alone without feeding on anyone:

“You are weak because you have not been feeding,” Abeloth was saying to Taalon.

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

This prison, known as the Maw, was built by Centerpoint Station. For 100,000 years she languished in her prison, angry, terrified, and worst of all, alone.

-Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station

She had come here, seeking answers, and found only the lonely, needy monster imprisoned at the heart of the Maw. The thing that had lured Jacen in, had damaged so many, had grown and fed and used Callista as it had used others before and since.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

Thus the first thing she does when she gets free is to try to consume the life energies of Dylon Stad:

She pulled back, and a glowing golden mist clung to her lips. The mist grew, mercifully obscuring her face as she extracted— A deep, agonized groan was ripped from Dyon, hauled from his innermost soul, floating on that golden mist. Every limb, every centimeter, every cell of him was coming under attack. It was not like the searing, focused pain in his temple; this pain was aching and deep. The pain at his temple changed from white-hot to icy cold, and it began to enter him. As Abeloth pulled forth something— Life energy, she’s taking my life essence … —from his body, she gave in return a dreadful cold. A slithering, dark cold that wrapped around his throat, closing it, then his heart, then his entrails, then seeped implacably into the rest of him. He could feel himself withering up, the desiccation turning him into a living corpse, dried and husklike, as if he had been buried in the sand for centuries. Abeloth chuckled, a throaty, warm sound. “You have served me well, better than any have in a long time. Soon, we will become one, Dyon Stad. Soon, you will never leave me. And you will have enabled me to continue.”

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

And when she gets damaged in her first fight with Luke and the Lost Tribe of the Sith army, she returns to Dyon to try and feed again:

The three Sith that Taalon had left to aid Dyon had already been dispatched. There was no obvious damage to the corpses, but they all had looks of terror frozen on their faces. And now, Abeloth had returned to Dyon to finish the job she’d started earlier. Dyon lay on his back, his face contorted in fear. Abeloth straddled him in a horrible parody of lovers, her tentacle fingers pressed to his face, her huge, grinning mouth a centimeter from his. Glowing golden energy wrapped about them.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for thousands of years weakens Force users:

Luke nodded. “Black holes are an interesting astronomical phenomenon to scientists, and a vaguely unsettling image for most other people … but Force-users and Force-sensitives have a real dislike or dread of them.”
“Why?”
His father shrugged. “The Force derives from life. Even death is not all that disturbing to a Force-user, since it is a part, a necessary consequence, of life. Black holes are something else. A cessation outside of life. Maybe the way they draw in all energy and trap it forever runs against our instincts. I’m not sure. I do know that the Force-sensitive children we hid at Shelter during the Yuuzhan Vong War did not like being in the Maw, surrounded on all sides by black holes. You’re too young to remember, but the Jedi caretakers at Shelter said there was a lot of crying.

-Fate of the Jedi: Outcast

Luke did not reply. More than ever, he was convinced that Sinkhole Station’s job was to keep this being in line—keep the black holes surrounding her world, so that she couldn’t escape. When he and Ben had been there, the station had clearly been falling into disrepair and it looked like the situation had worsened just in the short time they had been away. Now the area to which Abeloth had been confined had shifted ominously, and this bright blue star burned like a defiant flag run up a pole, daring them to come and get her. Which, Luke mused, they would.

[…]

Luke brought the navigation sensors back up, turning on the floodlights, and instantly realized why they had not been able to sense any life emanating from Sinkhole Station. Sinkhole Station had been destroyed.

[…]

Luke was now more certain than ever that Sinkhole Station had been designed to contain Abeloth, and that she was, as his beloved Mara had said, something very old, and very dangerous. It had probably been suicidal to think that he and Ben could have approached her alone. Even though he had asserted to the Sith that he wanted to try to reason with her, understand her, he suspected that such overtures would not be welcomed. He suspected, in fact, given what he was looking at now, that they might be flattened like insects.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of at least three entire planets as avatars:

After hurrying through two more archways, Thuruht finally stopped before a set of panels depicting three devastated worlds. In the first, an entire city lay in ruins. There were fungi rising from the rubble, and a drove of three-eyed bipeds could be seen fleeing a horde of tentacled felines. The second relief showed scores of dazed woodland creatures struggling through a blast-flattened forest, many fighting in vain to escape the fangvines wrapped around their legs. The third scene was the most gruesome of all. It was an ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh. Hanging in the sky of each world was a female face with a gaping, fang-filled smile that stretched from one ear to another.
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars. This also lines up with her best feats in FOTJ (which include for example causing a Force Flash that gets mistaken for a Solar Flare, and being able to cause lava flows on Coruscant with minimal effort) which would match her being a step above, but still relative to the historical top tier mortal Force users at around Multi-Continent level, as opposed to to star system busting powers of her prime.

So FOTJ Abeloth (and Luke by comparison) shouldn’t scale anywhere near the Ones or Abeloth in her prime.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

The other two matters of this proposal I would like to comment on are DE Sidious and The Ones.

I disagree that Sidious’ Force Storms should constitue Universal AP. While they do indeed tear at the seams of space itself, this is an effect of the Hyperspace Wormhole literally making a hole in space, not literally being able to destroy all space in a time efficient manner.

To qualify for 3-A you need to demonstrate an equivalent amount of power as being able to generate an omnidirectional explosion that destroys everything in a space at least equal to the Observable Universe. Sidious definitely can’t do that. Maybe if he had infinite time he could slowly guide Force Storms to eat everything, but for continuous effects the standard time assumption is a single second for calculating AP. Practically speaking he could ravage the surface of worlds with his storms in such time as an actual attack (which mimics his usage of his Storms against fleets), but nothing more than that. It would take him an impractical amount of time to even eat a moon, let alone the universe.

Thus I would maintain he should be listed as High 6-A: Multi-Continent level. This would match up with the destructive feats of other top tier Force users like Darth Vitiate and Darth Nihilus.

As for who scales to this, I agree with the listing of Vitiate, but I’m skeptical of the others. I guess you can include DE Luke if you add a key for his Force Harmony amp, but otherwise he was no match for Sidious. Similarly the Hero of Tython and Revan are more likely to get one-shot by Vitiate rather than scale to his full power.


I have two issues with this section of the proposal:
1) I believe the Ones’ scaling to the Force (and thus to Hyperspace) should constitute Environmental Destruction rather than raw AP scalable to their telekinesis.
2) FOTJ Abeloth and Luke should not scale to this.

Firstly, while I accept the logic of the Ones and Prime Abeloth affecting the entirety of the Force to very real consequence throughout the universe, I think there are good reasons to believe they cannot wield power on this scale in a direct clash of telekinesis.

For instance, Abeloth was imprisoned in the Maw constructed and maintained by Centerpoint Station (and later Sinkhole Station for its maintenance). The Maw was a collection of dozens of black holes whose gravitational pull combined with Centerpoint Station could keep Abeloth imprisoned (except in the few moments across thousands of years where there was sufficient chaos and war in the galaxy to amp Abeloth sufficiently to slip out, yet even in these cases she couldn’t wreck the stations).

This setup was described as a prison that could “hold beings of the architects’ power” indicating an inherent relativity between the Ones, Abeloth, and this prison. The prison itself shouldn’t be beyond Multi-Solar System level (with Centerpoint Station being capable of destroying Star Systems and the gravity of dozens of black holes being on a similar scale, but neither should be capable of reaching Galaxy level or beyond).

While some have suggested this might be because the black holes were nerfing Abeloth’s ability to use the Force so drastically and so suddenly that it might still serve as an effective prison despite the disparity in power to someone who actually has Low Complex Multiversal telekinesis, this seems doubtful as the Sith and Jedi that went to fight Abeloth inside the Maw never reported or seem to have felt or been affected to any significant degree, with even children who stayed near the black holes for years on end only suffering mild effects. It would be strange for a prison to be described as being able to contain beings of the Architects’ power actually needing at least decades of forced entrapment by outside forces to actually serve its purpose and live up to its hype, especially considering the Twins are never described as needing to supervise Abeloth for decades or more to actually keep her in her prison before she grew weak enough from the black holes to be properly contained.

Thus I believe the Ones and Prime Abeloth should all be listed as: 4-A; Low 1-C, possibly 1-C with Environmental Destruction

Secondly, Abeloth by FOTJ is far weaker than Abeloth in her prime. Abeloth regales to Sarasu Taalon after he becomes an entity like her that they need to feed on life energies to actually sustain themselves, else they grow weaker, with Sarasu Taalon especially growing astronomically weaker in a very short time without feeding, going all the way from someone who can overpower Luke Skywalker all the way down to someone who can be contended with by Ben Skywalker. Abeloth on the other hand went thousands of years in a row alone without feeding on anyone:





Thus the first thing she does when she gets free is to try to consume the life energies of Dylon Stad:



And when she gets damaged in her first fight with Luke and the Lost Tribe of the Sith army, she returns to Dyon to try and feed again:



It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for a hundred thousand years weakens Force users:

To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of at least three entire planets as avatars:



By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars. This also lines up with her best feats in FOTJ (which include for example causing a Force Flash that gets mistaken for a Solar Flare, and being able to cause lava flows on Coruscant with minimal effort) which would match her being a step above, but still relative to the historical top tier mortal Force users at around Multi-Continent level, as opposed to to star system busting powers of her prime.

So FOTJ Abeloth (and Luke by comparison) shouldn’t scale anywhere near the Ones or Abeloth in her prime.

Hm, so how do you feel about Low 1-A, 1-A, High 1-A+, and 0 for the rest of the verse FRA?