Star Wars Canon New Tier addition.

[OriginalStar8]

Many Star Wars Canon Characters should have a Athlete level tier added to their profiles when not amped by the force. This is because most Star Wars creatures, when not amped by the Force, aren’t much stronger than any Athletic Humans (Unless they have shown feats of doing so but as far as I’m aware they haven’t).

So at least for now they keep their usual AP, but add a Athlete level when not amped by the force. An example is Yoda, he isn’t really much stronger than any Athletic Human when unamped, yet it says that he is Multi-Block City level with Force Amplification. Force Amplification is useless in an in-character fight because most Star Wars characters don’t start with amping themselves unless they have shown to, so it’s a huge assumption that they are Multi-Block City level when amped while in fights they start unamped.

The Same goes for Speed. Most Star Wars Characters unamped aren’t much faster than Athletic Humans. The Same goes for Durability and Striking Strength when unamped.

See this Yoda profile as an example.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with this. To list benefits/other reasons from it

• It's what's the most accurate
• People who don't know the verse much will not think their Force amps to be their natural state.
• Everyone will be aware of their level should their stamina run out, conection to manipulate the Force get cut or nullified, or if they're put to sleep or overpowered with mind powers like illusions that may make them lower their guard.
• Not all are Athlete level, some characters have Wall level feats or the like, and listing this unique feats across the verse is our job.

 

[OriginalStar8]

Some characters like Kylo Ren and Rey have Small Building level naturally via scaling above Elite Praetorian Guards, all of whom should be superior to First Order Stormtroopers. Should they be kept Small Building level naturally? If so, Snoke should theoretically be superior to them and should also be upgraded via upscaling from them, so Snoke would become Small Building level naturally and Multi-City Block level with Force Amplification.

Speaking of Rey, why does she lack so many powers and no links to any of her current powers?

 

[Eficiente]

They did not fight those Elite Praetorian Guards w/o the Force as it makes no sense to do so, the Elite Praetorian Guards were portrayed on their level due to bad powerscaling, as humans often mess with Force users. Scaling to Finn is fine.

Snoke has no reason to scale.

 

[OriginalStar8]

I see. So, Kylo Ren and Rey should also get Athletic Human naturally and Multi-City Block level with Force Amplification?

 

[Eficiente]

Only that feat was wrong, they still scale to Finn. Well, we know how much of the Force Kylo used when he fought Finn, but we need to see first what others think of the main proposal here.

 

[Hellbeast]

TBH SW in general could do with variable ratings and I think this is part of that

 

[OriginalStar8]

Only that feat was wrong, they still scale to Finn. Well, we know how much of the Force Kylo used when he fought Finn, but we need to see first what others think of the main proposal here.

How is Finn Small Building level, naturally?

 

[Antvasima]

@Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Soldier_Blue @Js250476 @CinnabarManx421 @Sans2345 @SheevShezarrine @Edenstar @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @LordTracer @Newendigo @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Legion350 @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Sir_Ovens

What do you think about this?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

They already have 9-B natural durability, but there's no evidence that scales to their strength so I suppose this could work.

Rey subconsciously amps herself with the Force before she learnt to control it, I'm actually planning a revision to downgrade the 9-A rating for the sequel characters. Actually, a revision for street tiers in general, cuz their ratings are a complete mess, but that's a later story.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the issue is that a ton of non-force users (normal dudesO have feats far above your average human.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

They already have 9-B natural durability, but there's no evidence that scales to their strength so I suppose this could work.

They can injure each other....

 

[Eficiente]

They already have 9-B natural durability, but there's no evidence that scales to their strength so I suppose this could work.

So, I was disagreeing before that they scale to each other in durability due to the lack of a reasons for it, but..

They can injure each other....

if this is true then sure. When do they do that?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Neutral right now.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that they can amp themselves to high levels with Force augmentation, the argument was to add a rating of their normal strength without the Force because right now the pages make it seem like they punch at Tier 8 with every hit and Force users in universe are often too distracted or not prepared for that when a fight begins.

I'm neutral on if durability should scale to each other, I don't really see a strong reason to, but I don't mind it. I'd imagine most of their durability to be in the 9-C to 9-B range anyway.

It's going to be a tough to figure out their natural strength though, since we would need explicit proof that they aren't using the Force in that instance.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

TBH SW in general could do with variable ratings and I think this is part of that

Oh definitely

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

if this is true then sure. When do they do that?

Finn can harm people as strong as him and Rey can injure Finn before her Awakening.

Unless you mean street tiers in general, in which case there's a ton of characters that have Injured people like Chewbacca and Rukth who have their own Tier 9-B feats.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Rey was subconsciously amplifying herself with the Force before her full awakening.

Anyway street tiers like Finn and Chewbacca aren't the focus of this thread (though I do plan to revise them for unrelated reasons in the future), it's that Force users should have ratings for their pure physicals without Force augmentation. Although I do think it's kinda tough to find of instances where we know 100% for sure that they aren't using the Force at all, unlike durability where we can find cases of them being taken on surprise or unconscious.

Eficiente also brought up a point that Force users shouldn't necessarily scale to each other in physical stats without evidence.

For now the feats I know of are Obi-Wan and Kylo displaying 9-B durability when unconscious.

 

[OriginalStar8]

Rey was subconsciously amplifying herself with the Force before her full awakening.

From which book is that page?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I don't read guidebooks myself but a reverse image search says TROS Visual Dictionary

 

[OriginalStar8]

Rey was subconsciously amplifying herself with the Force before her full awakening.

Shouldn’t this be added as a note on Rey’s profile?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

As I said, going to revise the Tier 9 ratings for Star Wars in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread until then?

 

[OriginalStar8]

Why does this need to be closed?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Rey was subconsciously amplifying herself with the Force before her full awakening.

Theres a big difference between the force influencing you and amping up your physical strength by hundreds of times and having the force guide you. the force doesnt the latter to dozens of non Jedi as well.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Okay. Should we close this thread until then?

No I'm just saying we should focus on what's being brought up here.

Theres a big difference between the force influencing you and amping up your physical strength by hundreds of times and having the force guide you. the force doesnt the latter to dozens of non Jedi as well.

Rey obviously isn't at full power but Force sensitives are capable of using the Force to an extent before training. which is how they are identified in the first place. For example, Anakin had superhuman reflexes already as a child, Luke could use the Force here and there, and Darth Maul fought an untrained thief that could fight well and was recognized as Force sensitive by Maul. They shouldn't necessarily scale to their completely natural stats without the Force without clear cut evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

No I'm just saying we should focus on what's being brought up here.

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Many Star Wars Canon Characters should have a Athlete level tier added to their profiles when not amped by the force. This is because most Star Wars creatures, when not amped by the Force, aren’t much stronger than any Athletic Humans (Unless they have shown feats of doing so but as far as I’m aware they haven’t).

Species like wookies, Bossk's species, and so on are usually far stronger and more durable than others, even able to take fatal wounds that would typically kill other non-Force sensitive/amped characters of their race.

Hop is going to talk about current canon.

Chewbacca was still in active, full speed combat in Force Awakens after being shot in the timespan it took Kylo Ren to find the main characters and kidnap Rey. Bossk have been in fist fights with Force users if Hop recalls correctly and has taken their attacks (case by case we can determine if the Force user "pulled their punches") directly, and hasn't died or been severely injured by it. And neither character is a genetic freak or wears any fancy armor at any point. Chewie and all wookies are almost always naked, or wear armor that's more cultural than functional (see Episode III: RotS, Clone Wars, Fallen Order, etc).

Yoda's race makes sense for your argument actually. But to be fair to them, they're nearly all very attuned to the Force most of the time and can use it well despite their age (50 year old Grogu is seen tossing around Stormtroopers and lifting Mudhorns, but durability is fairly fragile, given he's an "infant" while Yoda is old and has fought even the likes of Sidious without being entirely worn out afterwards. This isn't to say they're always amped, but its unlike in a VS Battles indexing/match context we're going to assume they've "turned it off" or "forgotten to use it" or even "were caught off guard". There's proof of this, in Episode III again, Yoda, with no reason other than what he was feeling in the Force, blitz'd two clones troopers with distance and having his back to them. They barely drew their weapons before being killed, effortlessly of course, but they could never have done it. His species is almost always tuning into precognition regardless of state of mind.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

The Force itself doesn't, its just that, a Force. You can argue in current canon if it truly has a will or not, unlike the old canon which heavily implied and gave evidence to it. But Rey or other characters using it to get a buff, just like with adrenaline, she was tapping into it, heavily. Kylo Ren (far more experienced and older) says she is "untrained, but stronger than she knows" which means a character doesn't have to outright know or confess to the audience "hey I can do this now/as well as ____ can"

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

We sometimes do see cases like Yoda struggling to lift an X-wing which is not that high of feat, which I guess shows that you need effort to "concentrate on the Force" as well aside from just the strength required for the task.

As I said the most difficult part of finding a strength tier without the Force is to find an occasion where we explicitly know that they aren't using the Force at all.

 

[Eficiente]

That effort can simply be mental, costing fatigue without requiring physical strength.

In ep 11 s 1 of the Clone Wars Dooku lets some boulders fall on Anakin, whose later proven to be unconscious by this, and then Dooku lets some other boulders fall on him, meaning that an unconscious Anakin survived the latter. Characters also don't need to have any notable feat of strength reality, it makes perfect sense that most are just athletic w/o the Force.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It's pretty easy to find durability feats, but striking strength doesn't necessarily scale to durability.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

IDK if it really isnt that easy to find instances of Jedi without using the force then isnt the tier just arbitrary considering the feats the Jedi have while being "off guard" are still leagues ahead of just being Athletic.

Rey obviously isn't at full power but Force sensitives are capable of using the Force to an extent before training. which is how they are identified in the first place. For example, Anakin had superhuman reflexes already as a child, Luke could use the Force here and there, and Darth Maul fought an untrained thief that could fight well and was recognized as Force sensitive by Maul. They shouldn't necessarily scale to their completely natural stats without the Force without clear cut evidence.

this implies they using the force unconsciously at every point where it would be important then I dont see a reason to separate their tiers, a better solution would just give them a Varies rating.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

or we can just rate them Unknown unless said characters have a measurable feat. but I dont see why they would be weaker than non-force sensitives, people like Han who have survived being tackled into a Steel beam by an enraged chewbacca.