Elden Ring's Top Tier should be straight Tier 4 and not just "possibly".

[Blackcurrant91]

This should be posted, though

Updated

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Orbs of magic wouldn't have a GBE. That's based on mass and gravity, energy doesn't have any of these inherently, if you are a

Yes

This bit is also pretty damning

No it's not. Other sources confirm that Radahn also affected the true stars. The thing against Tier 4 is that the literal stars in ER are magical.

Ymirs dialogue all but confirms that Lands Between are universal in size and also that Stars are responsible for the creation of the elements in the same way they are in real life, in that all elements where forged in the heart of the star. This would be impossible if there werent literally stars.

True, but we can ignore the fact that literal stars in ER have magical properties. Blue/green glintstones are crystallized energy from the literal stars.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

True, but we can ignore the fact that literal stars in ER have magical properties. Blue/green glintstones are crystallized energy from the literal stars.

Yeh I mean, I dont think its a counter feat if they display the same properties of nuclear fusion as well as magical properties.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yeh I mean, I dont think its a counter feat if they display the same properties of nuclear fusion as well as magical properties.

@Qawsedf234

 

[Qawsedf234]

It wouldn't be. It's only be a anti-feat if the stars are pure magic with no normal star properties.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It wouldn't be. It's only be a anti-feat if the stars are pure magic with no normal star properties.

Well, Ymir's statement proves to us that the stars in ER, in addition to being magical, have the same properties as those irl. So 4-B for Radahn is actually valid.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

@Qawsedf234 @Mr. Bambu @Planck69 @Chritin @DMUA
I updated my post with better arguments

 

[Qawsedf234]

Radahn's feat is 100% 4-B.

Well 4-B requires effecting >5,135 stars. According to an estimate

The brighter the star, the lower the apparent magnitude value assigned to it, with the most luminous given a negative number. In total there are 22 stars with magnitudes of between -1 and 1, making them the night sky’s brightest stars. In the meantime, there are 71 stars of 2nd magnitude, 190 stars of 3rd magnitude, 610 of 4th magnitude, 1,929 of 5th magnitude, and 5,946 of 6th magnitude. When we include another 3,150 stars at the limit of our visual acuity of magnitude +6.5, then this adds up to 9,096 stars that it is possible to see in the night sky from both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres with the unaided eye.

There's 9,096 stars that you can see unaided. But that's across both the North and South hemispheres. If you half it that's 4,548 stars and depending the argument you might half it again to 2,274 stars.

I don't think it's the 9k figure, since you wouldn't be able to see half the stars in the first place. But it would be an upgrade over what we currently use.

 

[Chritin]

the rupture that created all beings that Ymir talks about is very likely the Big Bang.

Lowkey this is one of the best feats from the DLC. It just straight up makes the Greater Will Universal.

 

[Chritin]

Ymirs dialogue all but confirms that Lands Between are universal in size and also that Stars are responsible for the creation of the elements in the same way they are in real life, in that all elements where forged in the heart of the star. This would be impossible if there werent literally stars.

"I, to am a glimstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime?“

Also, I’m confident that this helps add some credence to the idea that some of the stars are stars, and some are meteors (or basically saying “likely” instead of possibly).

By the way, does the 7-A Radahn feat consider ALL the possible stars in Radahn’s cutscene or just the one we see land. If it’s just the one we see land, it could probably get an upgrade based on the amount there actually were.

 

[Qawsedf234]

By the way, does the 7-A Radahn feat consider ALL the possible stars in Radahn’s cutscene

Yes. Well all the ones I counted at least.

 

[Chritin]

Yes. Well all the ones I counted at least.

Ahh alrighty. Sorry I haven’t read it in ages.

Anyway, are we at this point just waiting on peoples thoughts and opinions?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. Its basically "7-A, likely High 4-C" or just "High 4-C".

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"At least 7-A, possibly High 4-C", from me.

 

[Planck69]

'Likely' works for me, failing the full rating.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Another thing to note, Glintstone is the 'Amber of the Stars' which implies it is a by product of the Stars and not the stars themselves.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yeah. Its basically "7-A, likely High 4-C" or just "High 4-C".

'Likely' works for me, failing the full rating.

"High 4-C, possibly 4-B" is better, but just High 4-C is fine.
We have clear evidence that the suns guide fate in ER as proven by my post, we cannot ignore this fact just because some people do not accept it.

By the way, does the 7-A Radahn feat consider ALL the possible stars in Radahn’s cutscene

What we see in Radahn's cutscene are meteorites, not literal stars (IRL we never see the stars move, and even less so quickly). This cutscene feat should not be used for Tier 4 under any circumstances, only the stars we see in the game above us should be used to justify Tier 4.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"High 4-C, possibly 4-B" is better, but just High 4-C is fine.
We have clear evidence that the suns guide fate in ER as proven by my post, we cannot ignore this fact just because some people do not accept it.

Some people are not so convinced. Some people point out, again, the site policy that by all rights should disqualify High 4-C on its own- that these "stars" impact damage do not match their supposed KE. Per our rules? Automatic disqualification. The other context that makes this leagues less solid than you insist on presenting it as, only further takes from a "likely".

"At least 7-A, possibly High 4-C", is a generous-ass rating, given the above.

Editing to say, I've been reading, I'm aware of your interpretation of "well some of them are stars and some of them are meteorites", and I find it an overwhelmingly weak argument, convenient in that it attempts to dismiss all visible, objective elements of the feat while leaving only the interpretive bits. We know Radahn's effects of "holding back the stars" affects, specifically, meteors. We see it on screen, it relies upon no interpretation. Your argument fails to account for this properly, only saying "no". The vote stands.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Some people point out, again, the site policy that by all rights should disqualify High 4-C on its own- that these "stars" impact damage do not match their supposed KE. Per our rules? Automatic disqualification.

Read my update post. The stars that guide fate in ER are suns, literal stars, not meteors or comets. Radahn held back literal stars. All the evidences of that are in my post, read it.

Radahn also stopped meteorites of course, but that doesn't mean he didn't also stop literal stars. Radahn's cutscene does not support or contradict Tier 4, he has no place in this debate.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Editing to say, I've been reading, I'm aware of your interpretation of "well some of them are stars and some of them are meteorites", and I find it an overwhelmingly weak argument, convenient in that it attempts to dismiss all visible, objective elements of the feat while leaving only the interpretive bits. We know Radahn's effects of "holding back the stars" affects, specifically, meteors. We see it on screen, it relies upon no interpretation. Your argument fails to account for this properly, only saying "no". The vote stands.

But how does the fact that Radahn stopped meteorites contradict the fact that he also stopped literal stars like ours for god's sake

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Read my update post. The stars that guide fate in ER are suns, literal stars, not meteors or comets. Radahn held back literal stars. All the evidences of that are in my post, read it.

Radahn also stopped meteorites of course, but that doesn't mean he didn't also stop literal stars. Radahn's cutscene does not support or contradict Tier 4, he has no place in this debate.

It does. It shows, explicitly, what he affected. Meteors. He did not affect literal stars. He held back the Fallingstar Beasts and held them back (presumably these meteors are Fallingstar Beasts, given that you find these beasts in similar craters).

Your "evidences" are flimsy dismissals of the legitimate rebuttals. You point to thinks like mentions of astrology by presuming that works as it does in real life when that isn't necessarily the case. You point to You do the same for mentions of constellations, as though these bits of dialogue had not already been discussed prior. These aren't substantive counterpoints when the verse establishes differences to reality in this department.

But how does the fact that Radahn stopped meteorites contradict the fact that he also stopped literal stars like ours for god's sake

I feel like you should read it again, slowly.

• Radahn is stated to stop the star's movement
• The stars begin moving again after his defeat, confirming this to be true
• ...except these are only falling stars, not literal stars, so we can visibly dismiss the whole premise from the get-go

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Without vaguely referencing various points in the discussion, I'll respond directly to the "better evidence" in your OP. I feel what I'm doing currently is causing confusion. I note that it is not important whether you understand or agree with my position- I do this for the purpose of clarity, regardless.

UPDATE
NEW/BETTER ARGUMENTS

The stars of the night sky guided fate (not some stars, but THE stars):
"Once upon a time, the stars of the night sky guided fate, and this is a recollection of those times."

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Celestial+Dew
So the stars that we see in the sky in the game

This, amounts to nothing. "The stars" could just as easily refer to the Fallingstars, or some other form Stars might take. This thread has established at least some baseline for many different things to be referred to as Stars, this could just as easily fall within any of those interpretations. Here, you've just chosen the one that you believe in, but this statement does no more to prove yours than mine.

The movement of the stars is drawn on Preceptor Set's clothes, and the stars drawn on them are suns, and the description also tells us that the stars no longer guide fate, implying that it was the suns which guided fate:
"Large hat with the movements of the stars drawn on the inside of the brim [...] Glintstone sorcerers are the descendants of astrologers,
a fact that the Carians remain of aware of.
Even if their fate has been long severed from the stars."

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Preceptor's+Big+Hat
A better view of the suns drawn on the outfit:

The symbolism used to ascribe things isn't really relevant compared to the visuals of the thing (the Radahn cutscene). The game deals in countless symbols, it would be an immense undertaking to even outline just how many are in effect for the game's lore. These things are not always literally what the thing looks like. Further, the stars on Seluvis' hat are hardly normal looking. Aside from this being a huge stretch in terms of evidence (the design of one piece on one set of clothing having an embellished star design), that it is embellished removes it from legitimacy even further. Were this a scientific chart or something, it might mean something. But it isn't.

Iji and Sellen tell us that the constellations no longer guide the fate of House Caria:

Sellen
"The stars alter the fate of the Carian royal family.
And the fate of your mistress, Ranni. But long ago, General Radahn challenged the swirling constellations,
and in a crushing victory,
arrested their cycles. Now, he is the force that repulses the stars. If General Radahn were to die,
the stars would resume their movement.
And so, too, would Ranni's destiny."

Iji
"The fate of the Carian royal family is guided by the stars.
As is the fate of Lady Ranni,
first heir in the Carian royal line. But General Radahn is the conqueror of the stars.
Who stood up to the swirling constellations,
halting their movement in a smashing victory. And so, if General Radahn were defeated,
the stars would once again resume their movement."

So Iji and Sellen tell us exactly the same thing as the description of the Preceptor Set: The movement of the stars, the true stars, guided the fate of House Caria, but that is no longer the case since a long time ago, but in addition to that they tell us that it was Radahn who stopped the movement of the stars. So Radahn stopped the movement of thousands actual stars, all the ones we see in the sky when we play.

They both say constellations. Constellations are formations of stars. Elden Ring has the term "star" be malleable. You have closed yourself off from the other interpretations at work here. The formations of the Fallingstar Beasts in the sky is literally a likely interpretation to be at work here. More likely, even, than balls of gas. It matches what is objectively known about Radahn's feat, rather than what is speculative.

Ymir tells us that living beings began as stardust:
"I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies."

What Ymir says is a reference to that:
"'It is totally 100% true: nearly all the elements in the human body were made in a star and many have come through several supernovas."
"Most of the elements of our bodies were formed in stars over the course of billions of years and multiple star lifetimes."

This bit is the most substantive, but it still presumes its own absolute rightness without considering other interpretations. As already established, the verse leaves itself open to perversions of real world concepts and ideas and phrases. It does this liberally. Your inclusion of the Vaati video above leaves me hoping you have seen his discussion about the recurring references to plant life throughout the verse, adopting phrases (like "grafting") to different situations. This being an established trend, makes this evidence far from conclusive.

This is not to speak of the other objections that exist. I've spoken on those in the past, I've spoken of them briefly above.

The facts of the matter are thus: Radahn held back the stars. The stars fell after he died. They were meteors. All else is speculation with varying amounts of legitimacy. The idea that they are real stars, is among the more far-fetched, in my estimation.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This, amounts to nothing. "The stars" could just as easily refer to the Fallingstars, or some other form Stars might take. This thread has established at least some baseline for many different things to be referred to as Stars, this could just as easily fall within any of those interpretations. Here, you've just chosen the one that you believe in, but this statement does no more to prove yours than mine

The stars we always see in the night sky are literal stars, not meteorites. There is no reason to think that it is just meteorites that are mentioned in the description.

vant compared to the visuals of the thing (the Radahn cutscene). The game deals in countless symbols, it would be an immense undertaking to even outline just how many are in effect for the game's lore. These things are not always literally what the thing looks like. Further, the stars on Seluvis' hat are hardly normal looking. Aside from this being a huge stretch in terms of evidence (the design of one piece on one set of clothing having an embellished star design), that it is embellished removes it from legitimacy even further. Were this a scientific chart or something, it might mean something. But it isn't.

What symbolism? The movement of the Suns are drawn on the outfit and it is said that they guided fate. That's it. Radahn's cutscene doesn't contradict the fact that literal stars also guide fate, you're removing them for no reason.

hey both say constellations. Constellations are formations of stars. Elden Ring has the term "star" be malleable. You have closed yourself off from the other interpretations at work here. The formations of the Fallingstar Beasts in the sky is literally a likely interpretation to be at work here. More likely, even, than balls of gas. It matches what is objectively known about Radahn's feat, rather than what is speculative.

Literal stars form constellations, not meteorites or comets. There's no reason to think that this case in ER is any different than irl just because Fallingstar beasts (which aren't even meteorites, they are born from meteorites) exist. It's like saying that the constellations irl are perhaps meteorites because irl we also call meteorites "shooting/falling stars".

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Frankly I think its kind of insane to say 'ahh but the star that fell into limgrave wasn't star sized'. Are we really gonna sit here and pretend that Radhan 'holding back the constellations' isn't explicit and manipulating gravity over such a wide area would inevitably affect other celestial bodies such as meteorites?

Not to mention the meteorite that fell to Limgrave could just as easily be dismissed as the actions of the stars once fate resumes. Other Outergods can explicitly manipulate celestial objects

see the GW sending the Elden Beast and Metyr AND Astel to the lands between

and don't say 'well they aren't star sized' because again this doesn't imply in anyway shape or form that there arent literally stars as well. How could the game even depict this visually??

This idea of things being mutually exclusive is just wild to me when are talking about manipulating gravity over such a wide area, there is so many simpler ways to explain it that aren't 'lol but stars don't exist tho'

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Frankly I think its kind of insane to say 'ahh but the star that fell into limgrave wasn't star sized'. Are we really gonna sit here and pretend that Radhan 'holding back the constellations' isn't explicit and manipulating gravity over such a wide area would inevitably affect other celestial bodies such as meteorites?

Not to mention the meteorite that fell to Limgrave could just as easily be dismissed as the actions of the stars once fate resumes. Other Outergods can explicitly manipulate celestial objects

see the GW sending the Elden Beast and Metyr AND Astel to the lands between

and don't say 'well they aren't star sized' because again this doesn't imply in anyway shape or form that there arent literally stars as well. How could the game even depict this visually??

This idea of things being mutually exclusive is just wild to me when are talking about manipulating gravity over such a wide area, there is so many simpler ways to explain it that aren't 'lol but stars don't exist tho'

Your first point is assuming the mechanics of the magic. Assuming, might I add, counter to what we do see. The gravity magic envelops individual objects. It isn't a huge area, snagging whatever is within. Each sustained object is separately affected. And if it is meteors, then yeah, it probably wouldn't contain a star in the area. Microcosm point aside, stars are very, very, very big. So no. We're not going to pretend Radahn's area covers that.

No, it can't be. Not with the further supporting evidence.

I mean. Yeah. No argument on this bit.

Dunno, I'm not a developer. What I am is a person with eyes, capable of seeing the game. Other games pull off presentation of stars. They've been doing it since Final Fantasy VII, I reckon.

You guys are the ones arguing mutual exclusivity though lol

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The stars we always see in the night sky are literal stars, not meteorites. There is no reason to think that it is just meteorites that are mentioned in the description.

Yes, yes, so you say. But those stars aren't moved. The skybox is unmoving. What moves in the skybox after Radahn's death are falling stars. Meteors. There's no reason to assume it includes literal stars. We've tread this circular argument since the game's release. This thread has nothing new.

What symbolism? The movement of the Suns are drawn on the outfit and it is said that they guided fate. That's it. Radahn's cutscene doesn't contradict the fact that literal stars also guide fate, you're removing them for no reason.

As mentioned, in that post. Stars do not literally look like that. So it is a symbol of a star. It represents one without being a 1:1 match. If it is a symbol, then it does not inherently denote a literal star. It's a terribly weak point. Radahn's cutscene absolutely contradicts that lol. You just keep dismissing it.

Literal stars form constellations, not meteorites or comets. There's no reason to think that this case in ER is any different than irl just because Fallingstar beasts (which aren't even meteorites, they are born from meteorites) exist. It's like saying that the constellations irl are perhaps meteorites because irl we also call meteorites "shooting/falling stars".

Yeah, and beasts don't fall from space. But they do in Elden Ring. So if the game says "the stars are monsters, and they form constellations", then it is so. Plugging your ears and saying "nuh-uh" doesn't change that. This is a nonsense argument and it relies on the presumption that the cosmology of Elden Ring matches the real world when it very simply and plainly doesn't. It's not at all like that. To say so is blatantly dishonest.

My vote stands.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Your first point is assuming the mechanics of the magic. Assuming, might I add, counter to what we do see. The gravity magic envelops individual objects. It isn't a huge area, snagging whatever is within. Each sustained object is separately affected. And if it is meteors, then yeah, it probably wouldn't contain a star in the area. Microcosm point aside, stars are very, very, very big. So no. We're not going to pretend Radahn's area covers that.

I mean, not really? im assuming how gravity works like you cant just 'affect gravity locally' changing the gravity of stars so much that they stop moving would actually have an affect on surrounding objects...

No, it can't be. Not with the further supporting evidence.

I literally posted my evidence? Elden Ring is the sort of game where you can suggest something is as the result of the meddling of Outer Gods without going into significant detail. Other Outergods have explicitly sent celestial objects to the lands between that are obviously much smaller then stars. This just has nothing to do with Radhan arresting the movements of the constellations. The game simply refers to beings from the Great Beyond/Lightless void beyond the stars as Stars or Falling stars or Shooting Stars. The object falling into Limgrave also ocurring while the movement of the stars ius supposeldy begining again is just not a counter feat? If a literal star fell into the lands between the game would be over... why would the Stars (which are clearly sentient and can manipulate fate actually want this?? they wanted to open the way for Ranni to complete the age of Stars ending so they sent an object that could open a hole to Nokron.

We know some of the 'stars' are just beings from the void like Astel and Metyr but again with Ymirs dialogue we know there is explicitly Stars that forged all the elements that make up the lands between in them and these are the same stars that are responsible for manipulating fate. You are using visual evidence only and not taking into acount the plethora of item descriptions and dialogue that go into painfully specific detail about this.

LOTS of things in the lands between are referred too as stars, and none of these things discredit stars being literally stars, to assume anything else is wild

Dunno, I'm not a developer. What I am is a person with eyes, capable of seeing the game. Other games pull off presentation of stars. They've been doing it since Final Fantasy VII, I reckon.

It doesn't make much sense from the perpsective of beings that want to gain influence and access to the Elden Ring (the literal source code of reality) to nuke it out of existence

You guys are the ones arguing mutual exclusivity though lol

No? we are saying the object that fell into Limgrave can be a meteorite and Radhan could have arrested the movements of the constellations as well. I really struggle to see how they are mutually exlusive.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, not really? im assuming how gravity works like you cant just 'affect gravity locally' changing the gravity of stars so much that they stop moving would actually have an affect on surrounding objects...

The game literally has you do this. C'mon, man.

I literally posted my evidence? Elden Ring is the sort of game where you can suggest something is as the result of the meddling of Outer Gods without going into significant detail. Other Outergods have explicitly sent celestial objects to the lands between that are obviously much smaller then stars. This just has nothing to do with Radhan arresting the movements of the constellations. The game simply refers to beings from the Great Beyond/Lightless void beyond the stars as Stars or Falling stars or Shooting Stars. The object falling into Limgrave also ocurring while the movement of the stars ius supposeldy begining again is just not a counter feat? If a literal star fell into the lands between the game would be over... why would the Stars (which are clearly sentient and can manipulate fate actually want this?? they wanted to open the way for Ranni to complete the age of Stars ending so they sent an object that could open a hole to Nokron.

We know some of the 'stars' are just beings from the void like Astel and Metyr but again with Ymirs dialogue we know there is explicitly Stars that forged all the elements that make up the lands between in them and these are the same stars that are responsible for manipulating fate. You are using visual evidence only and not taking into acount the plethora of item descriptions and dialogue that go into painfully specific detail about this.

LOTS of things in the lands between are referred too as stars, and none of these things discredit stars being literally stars, to assume anything else is wild

It is a counter feat. The stars move, one falls on Limgrave, and it does not cause 4-C damage. So, even under the presumption that these are legitimate 4-C stars in terms of size, they still run counter to site policy regarding level of destruction vs kinetic energy. The level of destruction is always taken first. If it is much lower, you take that, instead. Randomly claiming "well clearly that wasn't a real star", with no proof, is nonsense. The game makes no mention of Radahn holding back different types of stars. Just that he conquered them, ceased their movement. The game offers no such information, it is purely speculation on you guys' behalf to justify ignoring that bit of the feat. You assume, over and over again, to justify High 4-C, and when you get to that point, you pretend as though it is the only natural path to take.

You examine Ymir's dialogue without properly considering the context within which it exists. It exists in a world where those stars can be anything! You yourself admit that there are other things called stars. And still, you assume they must be so, that they can only be your interpretation. The whole thing could aim to imply life's relation to the Fallingstar Beasts. Or magic. Or anything else. But this is not considered, because in your eyes, it must be stars. It doesn't make any sense to approach it like that.

It doesn't make much sense from the perpsective of beings that want to gain influence and access to the Elden Ring (the literal source code of reality) to nuke it out of existence

Why would the Elden Ring be blown up by a 4-C strike if you propose that everyone is High 4-C, though.

No? we are saying the object that fell into Limgrave can be a meteorite and Radhan could have arrested the movements of the constellations as well. I really struggle to see how they are mutually exlusive.

Yes, that is in fact the point of the thread, to be mutually exclusive about things (this over that, the two both cannot be true, etc), but I see now that you mean only my instance of mutual exclusivity rather than your own. But I say to you that mutual exclusivity is not what I argue. I argue that the evidence we do see objectively, is contradictory to your position. And the non-objective evidence, that which is interpretive, falls behind the objective. So the Limgrave impact is counter-evidence, acknowledging the whole "gravity" discussion up there.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yes, yes, so you say. But those stars aren't moved. The skybox is unmoving. What moves in the skybox after Radahn's death are falling stars. Meteors. There's no reason to assume it includes literal stars. We've tread this circular argument since the game's release. This thread has nothing new.

the literal stars move, you just can't see it from earth. So no reason to exclude literal stars from this description, especially when they are the majority of celestial objects that we see in the night sky.

As mentioned, in that post. Stars do not literally look like that. So it is a symbol of a star. It represents one without being a 1:1 match. If it is a symbol, then it does not inherently denote a literal star. It's a terribly weak point. Radahn's cutscene absolutely contradicts that lol. You just keep dismissing it.

Again, what symbolism? We see suns drawn and you say they are just meteorites???
Radahn's cutscene contradicts nothing. Nothing prevents it from having affected both literal stars AND meteorites.

Yeah, and beasts don't fall from space. But they do in Elden Ring. So if the game says "the stars are monsters, and they form constellations", then it is so. Plugging your ears and saying "nuh-uh" doesn't change that. This is a nonsense argument and it relies on the presumption that the cosmology of Elden Ring matches the real world when it very simply and plainly doesn't. It's not at all like that. To say so is blatantly dishonest.

You are completely ignoring my point here. Saying that the constellations in ER may not be literal stars because meteorites in lore are called "fallingstar" is like saying that irl constellations may not be literal stars because irl meteorites are also called "fallingstar" ". Do you see the problem with your argument there?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

The game literally has you do this. C'mon, man.

I don't understand what you mean.

It is a counter feat. The stars move, one falls on Limgrave, and it does not cause 4-C damage.

It literally doesn't need to be a Star.

So, even under the presumption that these are legitimate 4-C stars in terms of size, they still run counter to site policy regarding level of destruction vs kinetic energy. The level of destruction is always taken first. If it is much lower, you take that, instead. Randomly claiming "well clearly that wasn't a real star", with no proof, is nonsense

Of course it isn't a Star? it's tiny.

. The game makes no mention of Radahn holding back different types of stars. Just that he conquered them, ceased their movement. The game offers no such information, it is purely speculation on you guys' behalf to justify ignoring that bit of the feat. You assume, over and over again, to justify High 4-C, and when you get to that point, you pretend as though it is the only natural path to take.

It is literally the definition of what should be indexed as a possibly rating.

You examine Ymir's dialogue without properly considering the context within which it exists. It exists in a world where those stars can be anything! You yourself admit that there are other things called stars. And still, you assume they must be so, that they can only be your interpretation. The whole thing could aim to imply life's relation to the Fallingstar Beasts. Or magic. Or anything else. But this is not considered, because in your eyes, it must be stars. It doesn't make any sense to approach it like that.

No? because Ymir explains that there was a Big bang and that we are all formed out of the elements that where created within stars, why would we assume that these werent literally stars given the context? Or that there aren't literally stars that exist in conjunction with other clestial objects such as Astel etc.

Why would the Elden Ring be blown up by a 4-C strike if you propose that everyone is High 4-C, though.

The ER might not have the the lands between sure would have been.

Yes, that is in fact the point of the thread, to be mutually exclusive about things (this over that, the two both cannot be true, etc), but I see now that you mean only my instance of mutual exclusivity rather than your own. But I say to you that mutual exclusivity is not what I argue. I argue that the evidence we do see objectively, is contradictory to your position. And the non-objective evidence, that which is interpretive, falls behind the objective. So the Limgrave impact is counter-evidence, acknowledging the whole "gravity" discussion up there.

I genuinely find it difficult to interpret Radhans cinematic any different then a bunch of celestial objects (which included some real stars) star tto move and in conjunction with NPC's that say that he arrested the movements of constellations and is literally the 'force that repulses the stars' (and it is a fairly valid source being Sellen and all). I feel as though to not even index this at all even as a possibility is facetious.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

the literal stars move, you just can't see it from earth. So no reason to exclude literal stars from this description, especially when they are the majority of celestial objects that we see in the night sky.

This is your claim. This is not an argument in favor of the claim.

Again, what symbolism? We see suns drawn and you say they are just meteorites???
Radahn's cutscene contradicts nothing. Nothing prevents it from having affected both literal stars AND meteorites.

I encourage you to read it again.

Yes it does. It contradicts them being stars, in that we see the damage caused by them. If they are stars, they don't cause 4-C damage, and that would take precedent over their KE. Your proposal that it affects both is not supported by any written lore, no writing about it mentions both stars and meteors. This is a far-reaching interpretation presented by you with no real standing other than "well, it should, yeah?", when that's not how the magic is shown to work.

You are completely ignoring my point here. Saying that the constellations in ER may not be literal stars because meteorites in lore are called "fallingstar" is like saying that irl constellations may not be literal stars because irl meteorites are also called "fallingstar" ". Do you see the problem with your argument there?

No, it isn't. Because we know what real life constellations are. You are creating a false equivalency. They aren't the same.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

is a counter feat. The stars move, one falls on Limgrave, and it does not cause 4-C damage

No it's not. The fact that a meteorite falls in the Lands Between absolutely does not contradict the fact that the literal stars were also stopped by Radahn. Whether it's literal stars or meteorites, both move in space, but we only see meteorites move in cutscene because even irl we don't see literal stars move.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

No it's not. The fact that a meteorite falls in the Lands Between absolutely does not contradict the fact that the literal stars were also stopped by Radahn. Whether it's literal stars or meteorites, both move in space, but we only see meteorites move in cutscene because even irl we don't see literal stars move.

I dont see how we wouldnt at the very least index it as a possibility.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This is your claim. This is not an argument in favor of the claim.

Literal stars also move in space, that's a fact. Stars are the majority of celestial objects seen in space, that's a fact.

Yes it does. It contradicts them being stars, in that we see the damage caused by them. If they are stars, they don't cause 4-C damage, and that would take precedent over their KE. Your proposal that it affects both is not supported by any written lore, no writing about it mentions both stars and meteors. This is a far-reaching interpretation presented by you with no real standing other than "well, it should, yeah?", when that's not how the magic is shown to work.

The stars we see in the cutscene are meteorites, that's why the one that falls doesn't destroy the planet. But that doesn't contradict the fact that the literal stars were also stopped.

No, it isn't. Because we know what real life constellations are. You are creating a false equivalency. They aren't the same.

The argument that you used to say that the literal stars of ER and IRL are not the same is the case of Fallingstar beasts, and it is this argument that I contradicted and that you ignore.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't understand what you mean.

Take any gravity spell. Say meteorite. It produces stone, and projects it via gravity. But the projection of gravity affects only the stone, not the whole area between the stones. A character standing between two stones will not be affected. The same can be said of Radahn's own gravity spells, the space between two objects is not affected by the projection of gravity, only the object itself is, in a form of gravity-based telekinesis. Can you explain to me why you believe that the stars would be handled differently?

It literally doesn't need to be a Star.

You provide no evidence suggesting it isn't, and there is evidence that it is.

Of course it isn't a Star? it's ******* tiny.

So are many stars, in Elden Ring. This is, in fact, the Point.

It is literally the definition of what should be indexed as a possibly rating.

It isn't, but I will note to you, in case you had forgotten, that I had accepted a possibly as a compromise previously. This thread aims to eliminate compromise.

No? because Ymir explains that there was a Big bang and that we are all formed out of the elements that where created within stars, why would we assume that these werent literally stars given the context? Or that their aren't literally stars that exist in conjunction with other clestial objects such as Astel etc.

What I'm saying is that what Ymir says is subject to the same changes of the universe from Elden Ring to Earth. What he's saying is not necessarily going to be 1:1 with what the same things mean on Earth, because Elden Ring has a very different cosmology than the real world. I consider Ymir's dialogue at least vaguely acceptable, but it does not suitably stand up to the ambiguity of the verse. I agree it has some bearing towards making 'possibly' more, well. Possible. But it isn't concrete, and it lacks much support from anything else.

The ER might not have the the lands between sure would have been.

1. Who cares, really.

2. The Lands Between get struck by, according to you, Tier 4 attacks literally all of the time. Radahn slams into it in an attack that one-shots his enemies, who can damage him, who per this thread, is High 4-C, possibly 4-B. So like. No.

I genuinely find it difficult to interpret Radhans cinematic any different then a bunch of celestial objects (which included some real stars) star tto move and in conjunction with NPC's that say that he arrested the movements of constellations and is literally the 'force that repulses the stars' (and it is a fairly valid source being Sellen and all). I feel as though to not even index this at all even as a possibility is facetious.

You may find it difficult. I do not. And your difficulty does not change that what you're saying is not anything proven or even really stated in any way. This is an invention of the thread, not something from the lore, to account for the inconsistencies in the feat.

To reiterate, I accepted High 4-C above. You argue with me as though I hadn't, and so I feel it necessary to bring it up again.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Literal stars also move in space, that's a fact. Stars are the majority of celestial objects seen in space, that's a fact.



The stars we see in the cutscene are meteorites, that's why the one that falls doesn't destroy the planet. But that doesn't contradict the fact that the literal stars were also stopped.



The argument that you used to say that the literal stars of ER and IRL are not the same is the case of Fallingstar beasts, and it is this argument that I contradicted and that you ignore.

Are you aware you're debating about a video game, and not about real, actual space?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

You may find it difficult. I do not. And your difficulty does not change that what you're saying is not anything proven or even really stated in any way. This is an invention of the thread, not something from the lore, to account for the inconsistencies in the feat.

To reiterate, I accepted High 4-C above. You argue with me as though I hadn't, and so I feel it necessary to bring it up again.

I know you accepted this as a possibility. I am neutral on making it 'likely' and against removing it entirely which is where this thread was heading for a while

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Are you aware you're debating about a video game, and not about real, actual space?

Are you aware that most elements of the irl space apply to fictional verses by default? (This is why there are star lvl, solar system lvl, galaxy lvl or mftl+ characters on VSBW)

There's no reason that shouldn't be the case for ER too, especially when the only argument against Tier 4 is the Fallingstars beast

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Are you aware that most elements of the irl space apply to fictional verses by default? (This is why there are star lvl, solar system lvl, galaxy lvl or mftl+ characters on VSBW)

There's no reason that shouldn't be the case for ER too, especially when the only argument against Tier 4 is the Fallingstars beast

No, not all of them, and certainly not when said elements are modified by the verse itself.

You continue to be dishonest about what is being said and what the argument is. "The only argument" is a great disservice. If you will not engage with me honestly, I have little reason to engage with you at all.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

No, not all of them, and certainly not when said elements are m

The key word in my comment is "most".

and certainly not when said elements are modified by the verse itself.

Yes, but this is not the case for the stars of ER. The only difference they have with the irl ones is that they have magic stuff in them.

You continue to be dishonest about what is being said and what the argument is. "The only argument" is a great disservice.

This is literally the only argument I've seen you use against constellation statements.