Star Trek General Revisions

[XING06]

Yes! That's exactly what I was saying: the ships need variable tiers. I'm not counting the high energy feats as outliers by the way I'm taking them into account.

Also, I'm not proposing a downgrade; I'm saying the values we have aren't standard, they're the maximum output (The best example would be the neutron star deflection calculation. They had no life-support, weaponry, holodecks, door power, or maneuvering - focusing entirely on shielding/graviton generation). For standard combat scenarios, that wouldn't happen, so we should revise the page to reflect this (I've got the time if you agree).

They would still be tier 5/6 overall, just with tier 6 and 7 subratings that would be what would actually normally get used in combat.


For Enterprise-D, I was thinking:

5A at the highest boosted shield strength (graviton generation which is what deflector shields utilize - which we have a calc for [neutron star]) 6C (standard shields - we really need to find good energy calcs). Hull - 6C.

Against solid matter, phasers at mininum 6A probably 5C (standard), 5A with a maximum level shot with every bit of energy (nadion generation shouldn't be much more energetic than graviton generation which is what deflector shields utilize) 7A against shields (b/c no nadion reaction so no damage multiplier).

7A at least (mininum) for quantum torpedoes.

Skills added: Gravity/Space manipulation (partially how their shields work), Subatomic destruction (phasers - nadions), Limited durability negation against solid matter (nadions).


PS. Also, for Q I think you might be right actually, well at least for the Q continuum. Didn't he easily force Picard to literally redo his life like 3 times in an episode once by destroying then recreating a timeline? And he can grant Q powers to others right? So effectively, through multiplication, the continuum can perform 2A feats. Also subspace does work as justification but it won't boost up his rating a lot, b/c its basically an alternate parallel universe existing side-by-side with the normal space so still 2C. Unfortunately, the 11-dimensional thing doesn't really help; it's a human feat and its access to the 11th-dimension not control or destruction.

 

[Aeyu]

Oh okay. Remember, I admitted in the first post that I haven't read the whole thing yet (it's a long thread and I'm tired-ish)

But I agree, and your estimates are most likely on the money I'd say (it'll also help when trying to determine Kes' tier, as she's probably the next character I'm gonna be doing.) though I'm gonna start scanning the series and guidebooks if need be (I have a bunch of old Star Trek magazines and a couple guidebooks in my house, as a matter of fact)

And the thing with Q: I'm not referring to the 11 dimensional device in the quantum torpedoes, I'm talking about 3 or 4 other, separate incidents involving dimensions (TOS with Mudd's robots, the fifth dimensional aliens in the one episode on VOY with the whole holodeck thingy, Barclay and Einstein's conversation in TNG, as well as subspace working as another space-time dimension with infinite "domains". Q individually are currently rated at 2-C and as a group at 2-B, so this would send them skyrocketing from High 2-A to High 1-B if that were accepted (remember, Q were stated to have accomplished all there was to accomplish, and were only ever affected by other Q taking their powers away, not to mention their realm existing extradimensionally, so it's not a stretch to assume that they come from an even higher dimension. Travelers obviously would scale due to being comparable to the Q individually.)

 

[Crzer07]

I wonder wouldnt it affect the borg ships as well i remember they had to tow the voyager away when a few of them were one shotted by species 8472 planet busting bioships.

Also curious as to what exactly mean when say "accomplish all there was" and how does that translate into AP

 

[Aeyu]

I feel like I'm gonna have to watch everything over again .-.

Including the movies *groans*

and I mean it really doesn't, it's more of a justification

If there's higher dimensions than 4, then that means Q have experienced or encompass them under those terms. Unfortunately, Trek is vague about dimensions except for subspace, and it really is up to whether or not it's considered a different dimension(s) than space-time, although it likely is due to being part of the space-time manifold.

 

[Crzer07]

There's still this calc for phaser rifles that's forgotten and nobody bothered to correct

 

[Aeyu]

Can you change the topic of this thread to Star Trek revisions possibly? Or should I post this in a new thread?

It strongly supports the hypothesis that each domain in subspace is another dimension.

 

[XING06]

Yeah no problem. I'll get on that right away. Sorry my internet conked out for a good 12 hours.

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

Also I cleaned up the previous post where I detailed my estimates, could you give it another look? If you agree I'll get onto revising the pages I guess.

The subspace domain theory is pretty interesting; I'll try to see if I can locate any quotes to support that. If so it would definitely be a massive boost; I actually seem to recall a Voyager? quote where Q is fighting another being and he collapses several domains causing a supernova in real space.

@Crzer07

Yes the ship revisions would also affect Borg ships, but they would be a higher tier. They work generally along the same principles, just with more exotic effects at much higher energy levels.

 

[Aeyu]

I will give it a few looks and then get back to you later today. I've been watching a lot of material in the meantime.

Regarding Q, it would likely be a similar scenario to the Warp in WH40K canon. If we consider subspace as a dimension in the space-time manifold, and Q's as a realm outside of that, he could be anywhere from High 2-A, Low 1-C up to 1-B, or even High 1-B if it's accepted that subspace domains are additional dimensions.

 

[XING06]

Yeah. Subspace is actually pretty similar to the Warp except you know without the soul-eating daemons and elder gods that want to devour and corrupt your soul.

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

Ooh I just remembered something I think might help.

In DS9: Playing God, they stated that new universes formed naturally within subspace, with multiple such universes as well as parallel realities existing there. It specifies that it is in a subspace interphase pocket, which is a self-contained area of subspace. This sounds to me like a type of subspace domain. What do you think?

 

[Aeyu]

Look over this page too and tell me what you think.

Also, I've read that guidebooks also compare it to being another dimension/series of dimensions.

And if that's true, not only does it support Q's rating being changed to at the very least At least 2-C, but it also makes it sound very much like another dimension, especially with the repeated statements of it being another layer of the space-time continuum, and having multiple beings stated to be trans or higher dimensional coming from its confines. (Not to mention the Q both transcend and are vastly above the confines of subspace. This would also upgrade The Traveler as well)

 

[XING06]

I looked over the subspace page, it seems like you're right it is another dimension. Also, to back it up, in this (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Parallel_universe#Subspace_domains) page, it states that subspace contains an infinite amount of parallel universes, and that a "the matter stream of a transporter beam was sent across a subpace domain" in TNG The Best of Both Worlds - which suggests a direct correlation between a subspace domain and alternate universes.

Based on what you've found and what I found that supports it, I would say there's a pretty solid reason for an ugrade.

PS. I'll try to dig up my old TNG Guidebook to see if I can't find some more supporting evidence.

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

So wait what do you think about the ship revisions, now that Q (and all scalable profiles) is definitely at least 2-C might be 2-B? Should I implement?

 

[Aeyu]

Q was at that before hand. What I'm proposing is an upgrade to High 2-A or possibly even higher based on there being another dimension in subspace as well as him existing outside of the space-time continuum.

As I have stated, I like your revisions thus far, but I wanna check over them just be sure I suppose.

 

[XING06]

Oh yeah, then sure I agree (Sorry I thought we were just moving him to 2B). It says subspace has an infinite number of domains, which we have pretty much gotten a lot of evidence proving they are parllel or alternate or just comepletely seperate universes, so I don't see why not. He should probably be there as a slight highball.

 

[Aeyu]

The point is that his realm transcends space-time, but if subspace counts as a dimension, he is 5-dimensional as a lowball.

The infinite domains / multiple universes thing essentially backs this up.

 

[XING06]

Yeah, I agree, so the upgrade is good then? Or do you think we need some more evidence?

 

[XING06]

Bump

 

[Aeyu]

I think it's good but I would like some admins' opinions. Maybe get Azathoth, Matt or Everlasting in here?

The reasoning (for Q) would most likely be:

High Multiverse level+ (Existed in a realm outside of the multiverse which transcended space-time and subspace alike, the latter of which being a dimension which was home to "infinite domains and universes". Vastly superior to the Travelers, beings who transcended space-time, could create universes, and were stated to be from a higher dimension imperceptible to humans. The Q were able to effortlessly affect the laws of the space-time continuum to a much higher degree than the former with their vast reality warping powers, redefining the laws of reality with merely a snap of their fingers, such as the gravitational constant of the universe. When the crew of the U.S.S. Voyager visited the Q Continuum, they were unable to perceive the true nature of its reality with the limitations of their perspective. The same later crew made contact with subspace aliens from the fifth dimension, corroborating the likelihood of the Continuum being at least a 5 dimensional reality. Q Weapons ignore conventional durability)

 

[XING06]

Looks good to me. You want to message one of them? I can probably ask Azathoth.

 

[Aeyu]

I could do as much if you don't feel like, but Azzy would be helpful.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I can see this, but I'll see what others think.

 

[Aeyu]

IMO, it's kind of a safe sorta-lowball, as there's been vague statements about 8, 11, and 26 dimensions as well, as well as there being infinite "layers," in subspace (which has been referred to as a dimensional plane, and can reasonably be assumed to be a spatio-temporal dimension since the show doesn't use "dimension," to refer to pocket realities which are appropriately called thus) so a super highball would put him at like High 1-B or even higher due to transcending space and time. I think the High 2-A thing is far safer x-x

 

[Aeyu]

I have found more evidence of a fifth dimension, and have added it to the reasoning behind High 2-A.

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

Yeah I asked Azathoth already.

Also, oooh nice, that really helps the argument. Which episode/show/movie was this? I don't think I watched this one actually.

 

[Crzer07]

At least high 2-A, possibly high 1-B seems appropriate to take into account statements about there being infinite layers

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

High 2-A seems fine.

 

[XING06]

Oh yeah what about the ship revisions I proposed? Aeyu mostly agrees but what about other people's thoughts?

 

[Aeyu]

@Azzy: Should I provide the edits, should someone else do it, or should there be more consensus first?

 

[Aeyu]

Also, a final corroborative thing, which juuuust might solidify "extradimensional space," as being 5-D (or even more)
Not to mention Barclay and Einstein (as I said) mentioning up to 26 dimensions existing in TNG, this is Q's form after merging with the wormhole aliens in DS9 (The Prophets, not the Pah-Wraiths, who are the villains)

And yes, this is actually fully cano, far more so than even the meh-ish Q Continuum books, which are licensed, but apocryphal. (Even though it takes place in a different timeline which Q later corrects; I can get scans for this if needed)

Since it is official canon, an alternate key for this form would be needed (I would suggest a Possibly 1-B key for that, which would look something like this

At least High Multiverse level+, possibly Hyperverse level (After becoming one with the last remaining Prophet, another 5-D being, the unified being was able to reach a new level of existence that transcended the two's previous dimensional state, and could perceive and was present in "all dimensions," of which in "The Nth Degree [TNG]," there was stated to likely be 26 of (being a reference to Bosonic String Theory), and possibly a countless number more with subspace being a point of entry to higher dimensions, containing "infinite layers". After being unfazed by the power of Dukat empowered by a multitude of Pah-Wraiths (who were stated as being superior to the Continuum), Prophet Q was able to annihilate his existence with a mere hand gesture, and stated that they could destroy the rest of them with ease, also implying that they had transcended the likes of the Continuum itself.)

This is him right before he one-shots a presumably 5-D being, whose full powered attack did literally nothing to Q.

 

[Aeyu]

More proof with the wormhole

, which is described as such:
"A wormhole was a "tunnel" connecting two separate points in space-time. It consisted of two apertures in space-time connected by a subspace. Since this conduit was shorter than the distance between the two points in normal space, it allowed rapid travel between the two points."

 

[Crzer07]

who wouldve knew Q entered the Kelvin timeline. Wish they had him meddling in the movies.

Prophet Q? damn, he's got the whole dr manhattan thing going

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

Hey wait isn't this an alternate reality fic? We're allowed to use that?

On another note, I'm gonna go read it! I didn't know this was a thing. Thanks!

 

[Aeyu]

While it is an alternate timeline, like the Vertigo/DC thing kinda, IDW's comics are actually canon, in the same vein as the new Star Trek movies. It's handwaved due to Q in that timeline transporting them back to their own respective timelines. The reason the Q Continuum books weren't used is because their canonicity is in question, despite them being licensed works.

 

[XING06]

Oh OK thanks for the clarification. I'm pretty sure the case for 2A-1B? Q is solid by now. We just need another moderator to weigh in and we're good. Did you find anything for the ships?

 

[Aeyu]

High 2-A, not 2-A, but yeah.

And I'm still looking x-x

Unfortunately, it's always easier to calc for more powerful characters/objects.

I've been watching Voyager so that I can get an accurate profile for it and Cochrane/Delta Flyer (Cochrane's speed can go from Omnipresent/Infinite to Immeasurable, which is insane for a starship)

 

[XING06]

Wait what? Are you talking about the quantum slipspace drive? That really actually only applies for the Voyager. The Delta Flyer piggybacked into the stream then scouted ahead.

Also, while theoretically it has infinite speed it technically can't b/c the frame of the ship can't support it as well as I think some sort of random energy pulse that screws up the system? If I remember correctly they had to drop out of the slipspace stream after 300 light years, b/c of this.

 

[Crzer07]

Not even sure if any ships will be accepted as having infinite speed in here, as the policy regarding it is quite literal to the T (eg. moving in stop time). Even the Heart of Gold with the infinite probability drive wasn't accepted as having infinite speed despite stating it to be by WoG and rather simply MFTL+

 

[Aeyu]

Wait, no, that wasn't the Delta Flyer, it was the Cochrane that did that; my bad. (with the Transwarp Drive)

How about occupying every point in space simultaneously within a single instant, becoming Omnipresent? Not to mention time moves backwards if you go even further beyond that.

So maybe it's Omnipresent to Immeasurable. (Since moving faster effects even time and hyper-evolves you instantly)