Star Trek General Revisions

[XING06]

Right now we have the ships in the high 6 to 5 tiers. However, I don't believe this is actually entirely accurate.

Phasers for Star Trek are very impressive, capable of vaporizing 30% of a planet's crust in a single 15 ship barrage (Die is Cast). And the Enterprise-D has its neutron star redirection feat. However, there is a problem with these feats.

Photon torpedoes are the preferred ship-to-ship weapon, b/c of their high supposedly energy output, but they are always consistently portrayed to be kiloton to megaton level weaponry. For example, Malcolm Reed describes the variable yield of photonic torpedoes (the predecessor to photon torpedoes) as able to "knock the com array of a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or put a three kilometer crater into an asteroid" (Kiloton-Low megaton). Another good example would be the Enterprise being unable to destroy a - according to Riker - "5km wide hollow asteroid" (Pegasus) without using the entire photon torpedo load of the ship. This supports the Technical Manual figure of 65 megatons for photons and 130 megatons for spatial torpedoes.

However, a small barrage of photon torpedoes is enough to bring down a ships shields. How could this be if phasers can perform clear continental level feats of damage?

The answer is that Star Trek phaser/disruptor weaponry utilizes nadions, which are "unique particles that cause liberation of atomic nuclei, disrupting nuclear forces" (TNG Guidbook + script). In other words, it is the particle ratio to energy reaction that causes the damage not the actual energy (can be seen in this source: https://www.phasers.net/2360/settings.htm - site used for current accepted hand phaser calc). ThiReaction s is clearly seen with clean "dissapearing" of objects hit by phasers, after being hit there is no more matter to react with. Phasers don't do as much damage as photon torpedoes against shields, b/c they focus less on raw energy output and more on damage caused by the particles which are blocked from reacting by the shields.

The planet killer durability feat is also good but that's if they make the assumption that it was a pure energy feat, which it was not. The script and books both state that it utilizes an "anti-proton beam" that reacts with normal protons to kill a planet. The Enterprise-D neutron star feat is impressive but the script suggests again utilization of exotic particles to make up for the lesser energy output, specifically gravitons ("I've worked up a few schematics to based on gravimetric potentials and deflector energy allocatio" and "Graviton generators operating normally").

Anyway, Phaser AP against solid objects would still remain around the same b/c they still do around the equivalent energy damage to solid objects. However, I would suggest we bring down ship shield durability to 7A, hull durability to 7B, photon torpedo AP to 7B and specify that the Nadion is far less effective against energy shields.

Note: This is now also a discussion for upgrading the various other Star Trek profiles

 

[FanofRPGs]

This sounds good, however there seems to be calcs which still put them in petaton and planet levels (being a devil's advocate here, would want ST downgrades tbh). Where do they come from? Are they consistent or worth still using?

 

[The_Everlasting]

What exactly is even being argued here?

 

[FanofRPGs]

What exactly is even being argued here?

The basis for our tiers are super high ends (tier 6) to far more common and consistent tier 7 feats, and the tier 6 feats seem to be mostly outliers or in fact only through chain reactions that ignore durability and are not necessarily that tier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This reeks of the type of downplay a certain website does for Star Wars ships, saying that Star Destroyers blowing up asteroids is an outlier because it doesn't cause explosions that big with every turbolaser shot.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@OP, can you tell me and SHOW me the calcs where they are tier 6, and too explain why the Enterprise has that tier 5 feat in one of the later shows? then I may accept the revisions you are proposing, until then, the burden of proof is on you.

This reeks of the type of downplay a certain website does for Star Wars ships, saying that Star Destroyers blowing up asteroids is an outlier because it doesn't cause explosions that big with every turbolaser shot.

Not even relevant to the discussion, whether or not he is downplaying. This is not Star Wars. Stop trying to imply this is irrelevant due to genetic fallacy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way, with Sci-Fi stories, authors typically downplay their own Verse with statements of how potent weapons are.

For instance, in Warhammer 40K, the Imperator Titans, the strongest weapons of the Imperium (Sans continent / planet busting ships) are repeatedly stated to be city-busters.

But calcs show that there's freaking Handguns that can reach High 6-C in Warhammer 40K, so that is definitely not the true limit of an Imperator Titans.

So I would hold the calcs above the Megaton statements.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There is no genetic fallacy in my post. I merely notice the similarity between his post and other posts I see which downplay sci-fi franchises using similar arguments (Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000), so it makes me naturally skeptical.

 

[Js250476]

Feats>Statements basically

 

[XING06]

@FanofRPGs

Yeah no. The AP and durability we use right now are based off the two best feats we have: namely the continental bombardment one and the tanking the planet killer. Again though like I said those both canonically rely on exotic particles to do their damage. The planet killer calc (6 exatons) uses anti-protons to react with the target matter protons to generate a self-feeding explosion that devours the planet. The phaser uses nadions, which when hitting solid matter gave a (4.4 petaton yield). However, against shields the reaction doesn't work so again we have to specify that.

We can keep the AP for phasers at 6A but we specify its much weaker against shields. Again though the photon torpedoes were scaled from phasers, which doesn't work anymore, b/c their best feats are a 3 km crater in an asteroid and using their ship's entire torpedo load to destroy a 5 km hollow asteroid. This would also scale to durability.

@Matthew Schroeder

Yeah thanks for bringing up that problem, but I did take that into account and I never said the calcs were outliers.

I'm just stating that the way we give AP for Star Trek, specifically, is a problem because canonically, based on script, novelization, and guidebook (which we did accept for the other phaser calc), their weapons utilize special particles to cause the damage. The damage increases based on how much the energy to particle ratio is (again please see the inserted phaser link. In other words, they can do a lot more damage for a lot less energy.

Note how I said that against solid targets the AP would still be 6A b/c the energy to nadion ratio makes it do around the same damage (I recalced it just in case - its correct), but against shields it wouldn't do as much. This is the main point I want to emphasize.

@Js250476

Actually if we went by visual calculation, then the continent level calc would be gone anyway, b/c the visuals only demonstrate megaton level detonations at best (Sorry it was calced in spacebattles - i'll try to find it). We only have 6A b/c we calculated using the script. Also the durability feat was also based off statements.

 

[FanofRPGs]

By the way, with Sci-Fi stories, authors typically downplay their own Verse with statements of how potent weapons are.
For instance, in Warhammer 40K, the Imperator Titans, the strongest weapons of the Imperium (Sans continent / planet busting ships) are repeatedly stated to be city-busters.

But calcs show that there's freaking Handguns that can reach High 6-C in Warhammer 40K, so that is definitely not the true limit of an Imperator Titans.

So I would hold the calcs above the Megaton statements.

Its not downplay when they say it a lot, feats show it at the exact level they say all the time, then there is one or two feats far higher. We discount those latter 2, as there is nothing backing them up in the slightest.

Given the full context of what the OP is saying, it does indeed seem there are only a handfull of feats on this level, in an ocean of far lesser but more consistent feats backed up by in-verse statements.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Its not downplay when they say it a lot"

Is literally every Power Ranger ever now Subsonic because official ratings say so?

Also, "far higher feat(s) = outlier" needs to stop.

 

[XING06]

@ Everlasting

Er guys again note how I did not say the calcs were outliers, they're not. I'm speciying that the AP for phasers will remain the same except against energy shields b/c of how they work.

The calcs are good (I redid the math to check) its how the phasers work that matter.

@FanofRPG

Actually, phasers specifically have really good feats. They actually are stronger than turbolasers when it comes to solid matter destruction. Photon torpedoes are what have consistently low feats and pretty much no high feats.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Unrelated to the discussion for the most part, but since I can't see the calc, I wanted to ask why the Enterprise is rated as Large Planet level for deflecting something weighing not too much more than a ton travelling at less than 3% the speed of light.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Azzy

I think the description is supposed to be superscript with 10^28, but the copypaste didn't keep it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ever

That would make infinitely more sense.

 

[XING06]

@Azathoth

That I just accepted. I didn't check the math for this one, but it's still probably right.

Oh just saying that's a typo for the weight though. Here's the script: Data: The fragment has a density of one hundred billion kg per cubic centimeter.

 

[XING06]

Ninjaed by Everlasting. ^_^

 

[XING06]

Again just making sure everyone gets my point:

Just to clear everything up so nobody starts talking about outliers or downplay: Phasers have good feats and good calcs. The calcs are not outliers.

My point is that the way phasers work they deal the same amount of damage against solid matter as show in the feats without actually using the same amount of energy. They use the energy mainly to generate and fire the particles at relativistic+ speeds, which stil gives it a decent AP by itself just nowhere near what they get through the NDF effect.

Therefore, we have to downgrade shields, b/c they stop the NDF reaction, which means that just the base AP of the beam itself acts upon it. This is further supported by photon torpedo feats, none of which go higher than 7A. We got our current AP rating for it by scaling, b/c in ship to ship combat photons are better than phasers.

 

[FanofRPGs]

"Its not downplay when they say it a lot"

Is literally every Power Ranger ever now Subsonic because official ratings say so?

Also, "far higher feat(s) = outlier" needs to stop.

Far higher feat in a pool of tons of lower feats is an outlier. That is literally what an outlier is.

Nice way to misconstrue my quote when the next thing I say is

"Given the full context of what the OP is saying, it does indeed seem there are only a handfull of feats on this level, in an ocean of far lesser but more consistent feats backed up by in-verse statements."

These feats for plasma torpedos are so consistently lower, the couple of times they are tier 6 for some reason have NO backing at all. There is no reason to see them as anything except for an outlier

@Azzy, it pushed a planet into a star or soemthing. That is legit 5-A or whatever it was rated. However, plasma torpedos should not be 6-A.

 

[XING06]

@ FanofRPG

Please read my above post. I agree with you that we need a downgrade but its not b/c of outliers

 

[XING06]

Also I addressed the 5A rating in my inital post. We know the Star Trek universe canonically and script-wise utilizes unique particles to go beyond what they can do with raw energy. This feat is no different. The script specifically states the generation of graviton particles, to bend space, to alter the trajectory.

PS Can everybody read the post from 3 posts ago? Please?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Fan

Wrong. One higher feat that contradicts lower ones is an outlier. Is 4-B FFVII now an outlier? Or Low 2-C DBS? Or 4-C Bayonetta?

What you're claiming goes against what we consider an outlier to be.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@XING

That honestly just sounds like nonsense technobabble.

 

[XING06]

@The Everlasting

It's not nonsense technobabble. It is the unique method through which they deal damage, which is explicitly referenced throughout the script and books.

Saying its unimportant is like saying a skill is unimportant. It is important b/c it works better against solid objects, acting as a damage multiplier with some durability negation.

The actual energy output of the phaser isn't as high b/c the projectile (nadion particles) it shoots has integral subatomic destruction abilities, which are self-perpetuating to a point against solid matter.

 

[XING06]

Bump

 

[XING06]

Bump

 

[XING06]

Bump

 

[Aeyu]

puts hands together

I'm gonna have to get some hard stats, aren't I :T

Well one, (I haven't read this whole thread yet) Sisko arms a spread of quantum torpedoes and it life-wipes an entire planet. And this is off of a destroyer, not even a starship. Even then, he's not trying to hit the core or anything, he's aiming them above the planet's surface and detonating them before they hit.

 

[DerpCity]

@Aeyu Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't he put a toxin in them that made the planet uninhabitable when it spread into the atmosphere, or are you referring to something else?

 

[Aeyu]

No, the resin released simply is from him detonating them over the atmosphere. The effect life wipes the entire planet.

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

Sorry that's incorrect, the resin is what actually life wipes the planet. Heres the script:

SISKO: Major, I want you to send the following message on all Maquis frequencies. To all the members of the Maquis resistance. This is Captain Sisko of the USS Defiant. In response to the Maquis's use of biogenic weapons in their recent attacks, I am about to take the following action. In exactly one hour, I will detonate two quantum torpedoes that will scatter trilithium resin in the atmosphere of Solosos Three. I thereby will make the planet uninhabitable to all human life for the next fifty years. I suggest evacuation plans begin immediately. What are you waiting for, people? Carry out your orders.

- Again note that trilithium resin is the byproduct of Star Trek ship generators which is also extremely toxic. Which is why it is classified as a bioweapon by the Federation.

 

[XING06]

Again not saying that Star Trek isn't a formidable verse, but it isn't through pure power. The calculations for the phaser yields are good, but again that's because of how they work, which is through firing what are basically anti-gluons at relativistic+ speeds, creating a self-perpetuating subatomic destruction reaction in the object it hits. They use a lot less energy to get a lot more damage by mostly focusing on generation of these particles. It's closer to a limited hax than actual energy damage. I'm stating that we need to bring ship durability down to reflect this, b/c shields block this.

 

[Aeyu]

But the AP and Dura isn't based on phasers or photon torpedoes alone

And that's literally what I just said.

If you watch the video, you can see the blast from the QT's hit the planet's atmosphere, send a huge shockwave through its entirety, and then the resin scatters through the atmosphere within seconds.

Also, the wiki has this to say about them:

The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual states that the basic mechanism of the quantum torpedo was first operated experimentally in 2236. The first warhead application was tested in 2355, afterwards the mass fabrication started. The Federation quantum torpedo model is called "Pho-torp Mark Q-II" and it has a casing differently shaped from the photon torpedo.

The quantum warhead relies on rapid energy extraction from zero-point vacuum. This is established from an 11-dimensional space-time membrane, twisted into a Genus-1 topology string, housed inside the ultraclean vacuum of a 1.38 meter-long teardrop shaped zero-point field reaction chamber. The detonation of a photon torpedo warhead, enriched with fluoronetic vapor, inside the torpedo powers a continuum distortion emitter. It expands the membrane and pinches it out of the background vacuum. The membrane forms into subatomic particles accompanied by a high-explosive energy release.

The statement of quantum warheads and enriched photon warheads seems to contradict the canonical account that quantum torpedoes contain a plasma warhead, from DS9: "For the Uniform". The isoto figures given in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual are much smaller than the ones stated on-screen, in VOY: "Scorpion, Part II" etc. The enriched photon warhead for example is rated only at 21.8 isotons and the membrane energy potential upon detonation is rated to be only at least fifty isotons in the Manual, while basic class-6 photon warheads were rated at two hundred isotons on-screen.

Propulsion system of the quantum torpedo is a warp sustainer engine and four microfusion thrusters. The engine coils of the warp sustainer grab and hold a hand-off warp field from the torpedo launcher tube's sequential field induction coils. A miniature matter/antimatter fuel cell adds power to the hand-off field. When launched in warp flight, torpedo will continue to travel at warp, when launched at sublight, torpedo will travel at a high sublight speed, but will not cross the warp threshold. The quantum torpedo uses a bio-neural gel processor for flight control, and a thoro web to block countermeasure radiation.

Deep Space 9 was armed later on with quantum torpedoes. class-8 and class-9 probe variants also use the quantum torpedo casing. There are apparently also micro quantum torpedoes. (pp. 77, 82, 85, 86, 130 and Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, p. 129)

 

[XING06]

@Aeyu

No, that's not what you said, you stated the quantum torpedoes explosive yield was what led to the life wipe. That is incorrect it was the bioweapon that it spread (quantum torpedoes don't leave trilithium residue just antimatter residue). I did actually see the video (I'm actually in the middle of rewatching DS9. Yay!) Anyway, you'll notice the actual explosions aren't that big nor is there any shockwave. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qdAoqe5JyE)

Also, thanks for bringing up how quantum torpedoes work, but while the way a weapon works is important, the detonation is at its core still anti-matter/energetic in form, which means we can calc it off feats without fear of some form of integral hax/skill messing it up, unlike with phasers. By all feats we currently have they are in the high kilotons for photonics, high megatons for photons, and maybe low gigatons for quantum torpedoes (Quantums are based of isoton yields so take it with a grain of salt; I think its actually much higher). Also, an isoton is never properly defined, so it's pretty much no good for calcing anything, especially taking into account the various different stated isoton yields compared to the actual visual effects.

In addition, if you read the entire OP you would note that I did take into account the Planet Killer feat as well as the neutron star fragment redirection feat. But again, I brought up why these don't really help establish AP or durability in my previous posts. The Planet Killer also uses an exotic particle, in this instance anti-protons instead of nadions, which are the anti-matter version of protons. This means that when the two types of particles collide it instantly generates massive self-perpetuating explosion, up until the entire planet explodes; this would mostly be hax not AP.

Also for the Enterprise-D redirection feat, the script itself also states the utilization of another exotic particle, gravitons, to bend space through gravity manipulation, altering trajectory. Here's the script: "I've worked up a few schematics to based on gravimetric potentials and deflector energy allocatio", "Graviton generators operating normally"


PS. Anyway, thanks for replying though! Always good to see another Trekkie. Seriously though, if you find any better feats for quantum torpedoes let me know. I myself actually think quantum torpedoes are supposed to be more than 2 times as strong as photons (probably at least 6-C, which would boost the Enterprise-D up to 6-B), but right now we don't really have any good calculated feats for quantums alone so all we can do is scale from the best photon torpedo calcs we have.

 

[Aeyu]

My bad, I missed the first part where Sisko told Worf to attach a cargo-pod to the torpedoes in Engineering before hand. I guess I was going off the fact that the residue from those sorts of explosions can cause a very damaging effect.

Also, I mean we could make 2 keys for the ships. One without shields and one with, because the shields from the D (and Voyager to a lesser extent) I seem to remember being able to survive being very close to a supernova explosion, and then there is always the deflector shield stuffs.

Geesh, I didn't think I would need to defend the ships, but I guess I might have to go scrounging for feats. I should anyway, I have to go watch Voyager again to see if Q needs an upgrade to High 2-A based off of some statements that were made in a few different episodes.

Why would you want to quantify reactions as purely hax though? What hax would that even be? Energy Manip? Heat Manip? Matter Manip? Regardless, it still causes a destructive effect.

 

[XING06]

Sorry I also remember the supernova feat; it's not all that impressive. The shields were dropping like mad from the ambient heat alone, not any actual explosion which they weren't all that near actually, so the shields are still nowhere near as good we put them as. It wasn't actually a supernova it was either a star surrounded by a dyson sphere or the corona of a star.

The reactions are hax, b/c nadions actually have an integral property where they disrupt atomic/subatomic bonds without additional energy input. Therefore, the actual energy of a phaser is much lower than we see against solid matter. However, it still requires energy to create the amt. of particles needed to destroy a specific amt. of matter so it's limited hax. Like I stated before phasers would still have 6-A AP but we would need to specify this is against matter and it is much weaker against shields.

PS. While your scrounging for feats can you see if you can find some for quantum torpedoes? I've been searching for days.

 

[Aeyu]

Which one? There were a few.

Not to mention this, while not being a supernova, it still would set the dura from shields pretty high due to being a subspace shockwave that destroyed a moon.

And even if it is hax, it's still correlative with AP imo because of the destruction caused, it's not totally based off of raw joule output from the beam alone.

And yeah, I'll try to do that. To be honest, while I've seen every movie and every series up to this point (including the new one to some degree) I probably am a little rusty on specifics due to not having seen them all for a little while. This has contributed to why I haven't been able to add as many profiles/correct as much stuff as I would like (if you see the ST page, you'll notice that there's many pages on there that are supposed to be done)

Also, since you seem to be a Trekkie yourself, would you mind helping me see if Q's tier possibly needs to be raised at all? I've been scrounging through details and it does seem that higher dimensions do come into play to some degree.

 

[XING06]

Sure no problem with Q I'll take a look at it later.

Yeah that's what I stated: it's limited hax correlated to AP against matter, just that it doesn't work as well against shields. Phasers would remain 6A but shields and torpedoes would go down, b/c they rely on energy alone.

Also I remeber that shockwave, it was actually calced I think but it was not accepted generally, b/c of a bunch of assumptions you would need to make to calc it.

 

[Aeyu]

There's mention in TNG of 10 to 26 dimensions, and quantum torpedoes as mentioned above are 11 dimensional.

This might also factor into Q's rating (outside of his realm being extra-dimensional), as well as provide other ratings as well:

Subspace, occasionally spelled sub-space, is an integral part of the space-time continuum, distinct, yet coexistent with normal space. Subspace and normal space confluence together. However, in some regions an interfold layer forms between the two realms. (VOY: "Real Life") Subspace has an infinite number of domains. Geordi La Forge compared it with "... a huge honeycomb with an infinite number of cells." (TNG: "Schisms") These domains were also known as subspace spectrum. In 2367, the USS Enterprise-D picked up frequencies across the entire electromagnetic and lower subspace spectrum. (TNG: "The Loss")

Tetryo particles are a form of subatomic particle which can only exist naturally in subspace. If they are released into normal space, they exhibit erratic properties. This can only occur when the fabric of subspace comes into contact with normal space in some manner.

Some species, such as the solanogen-based lifeforms, were indigenous to subspace.

Not to mention this:

"The first thing to realize about subspace is that it's basically technobabble. It is not based on any real-life scientific theory and has no coherent explanation in any canonical Star Trek material.

But reading between the lines in both canon and non-canon materials like the TNG Technical Manual, subspace appears to be a separate dimension, or perhaps set of dimensions, which we can only interface with by generating subspace fields. Subspace undergirds spacetime, giving it shape like a frame does to a building, and so by manipulating subspace you can also manipulate the spacetime connected to it."


That all being said, I don't think we need to discount the times that shields have held up against high-level stuff like that or consider everything not aligned an outlier just because of energy outputs (it's more an inconsistency within the internal logic of the show than a lack of concrete feats) as well as modifications allowing for much higher AP to occur through specialized scenarios.

All in all, I don't wanna see them get downgraded only for me to go watch TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT over again just to find out that they need to be re-upgraded with a whole bunch of keys.

It's just there's not a lot of Trekkies here to help out.

IMO the ships all need a variable tier, with different keys for different weaponry, equipment, and scenarios.