(STAFF ONLY) EE AP revision

[Antvasima]

But should characters such as Yogiri and Zen'ō, that use EE a lot, really never receive any tier? That seems a bit unreasonable. Or have I misunderstood?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

But should characters such as Yogiri and Zen'ō, that use EE a lot, really never receive any tier? That seems a bit unreasonable. Or have I misunderstood?

I don't know who those characters are.

 

[Antvasima]

They are major characters from Dragon Ball and Instant Death.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gotcha. If they just use hax, and never AP, then yeah, I dunno what to tell you. I'd be in favor of classifying hax as hax and AP as AP.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Gotcha. If they just use hax, and never AP, then yeah, I dunno what to tell you. I'd be in favor of classifying hax as hax and AP as AP.

what, then what is point of AP via creation? Because I can use the same argument?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Gotcha. If they just use hax, and never AP, then yeah, I dunno what to tell you. I'd be in favor of classifying hax as hax and AP as AP.

In the case in DB, your own energy is often used to erase a universe, for example, Ki in DB results in speed and destructive potential, as well as all skills are based on energy of the verse

 

[Antvasima]

Gotcha. If they just use hax, and never AP, then yeah, I dunno what to tell you. I'd be in favor of classifying hax as hax and AP as AP.

Well, Zen'ō has been stated as capable of effortlessly wiping out at least 54 universal spacetime continuums.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't get Bambu point at all, he is denying that there are two hax are being scaled to AP, according to his argument and logic, they should not be there in the first place because hax is hax

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I am getting tired of repeating myself, but I disagree. First of all, the Hakai or Energy of Destruction is part of the UES scaling regardless, and there are plenty of arguments where him nuking the universe was portrayed to be more so like a Ki Blast rather than a Hakai.

Medeus, here gave his opinion on, where character skills are based on Ki blast or hakai ( which is a universal energy used by the Gods of Destruction)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

But should characters such as Yogiri and Zen'ō, that use EE a lot, really never receive any tier? That seems a bit unreasonable. Or have I misunderstood?

That has been clarified Zeno’s EE falls under UES and DDM explained early that Zeno isn’t affected

since ee scaling is a case by case but by default shouldn’t scale

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

EE feats are similar to creation feats which why I don't think it scales to physical stats by default, I think UES is the exception. And using EE on an Earth sized planet should just be treated as the same as creating things from nothing. Which we have calculation policies for creating objects less than the Moon, so I guess we can apply those to EE feats too. Erasing the Earth for example is just a baseline 5-B feat. And as said, won't scale to physical stats unless there is a UES scaling involved.

In Zeno's case, he used a Ki Blast to destroy the Future Timeline and all 12 Universes and their Afterlifes. And even if it was Hakai, it could still be the Energy of Destruction that outdoes all the GoD and is too great for the Angels. So I think he is safe yes.

 

[Damage3245]

And using EE on an Earth sized planet should just be treated as the same as creating things from nothing.

Why exactly?

What does one have to do with the other, aside from range?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Both are range, what?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't get Bambu point at all, he is denying that there are two hax are being scaled to AP, according to his argument and logic, they should not be there in the first place because hax is hax

Me disagreeing with your point isn't an opportunity for you to then invent another reason why Bambu does not understand. Creation isn't hax lmao, although it does have a conversation to be had for it- one entirely different from this one.

 

[Reiner04]

They are major characters from Dragon Ball and Instant Death.

Dragonball already has a reason to scale zeno EE to his physical stats, as EE or hakai is a ki (has energy factor) that corresponds to AP, I don't know any character that scales to Tier 2 or above solely for EE, so doubt it'll affect any.

 

[omegabronic]

Can people please stop bringing DB into this?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Me disagreeing with your point isn't an opportunity for you to then invent another reason why Bambu does not understand. Creation isn't hax lmao, although it does have a conversation to be had for it- one entirely different from this one.

Creation is not hax...???

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I urge you to go read our Hax page on the wiki before using the word, if you don't know what it means. I think the second sentence answers everything in this thread, suddenly things are making a lot of sense.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am having great time right now with my family, you can do what you want. My point is creation is an ability itself, not AP.

We need to rate or give a mention to those structure EE feats somewhere. We are already having bad time reading profiles and understand the ability's potency

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Creation is an exception, not the rule, because people feel it is common sense that creating a universe may as well be Low 2-C and creating a star may as well be 4-C. I was on board with this exception applying to EE for Tier 2 and up, because it is functionally the same as destroying the given structure normally. But unlike creation, we have no means of even using scuffed math to give an exact energy value to EE. It's impossible. I wish you would address points rather than continuously painting it as though I don't know what I'm talking about when you have now revealed you didn't even know what hax meant.

We can simply continue to rate EE under range, which is what it is. I don't know what you expect here.

Hope you have a good time with your family, though.

 

[Reiner04]

Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.

Yeah Hax is unrelated to the AP. Creation is not a hax as it don't use to bypass target statistics, Also creation involves energy and mass stuff many times which can be treated as AP in certain cases.

 

[Crabwhale]

Yeah I'm changing my vote, Bambu makes a lot more sense.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I guess I will agree with low 2-C and above as well. Bambu made a good point, tho I would recommend it to be only structure-based EE.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The term "Hax" is more so a pun for "Hacks" and originated from competitive gaming. It originated form hacking video games that turning an otherwise extremely difficult game easy as crap; or same thing can be done to make an easy game brutally difficult. In the sake of Vs Debating, hax is any power or ability that would otherwise turn the tables of a one-sided fight.

Yeah, creation is just an ability, not hax. And hax has been historically overused to refer to any power or ability that isn't pure superhuman physical characteristics; fire manipulation or the ability to fly are simply abilities that add versatility, and creation isn't always offensively used for combat unlike EE. EE is hax through and through. Though some verses could still use potency to measure resistance and what not. Though creation can have multiple methods such as using asteroids to form a planet vs simply magically poofing planets into existence. The latter is commonly seen as the inverse of EE. And I do think Mass-Energy conversion feats are to be treated one direction or the other if specifically stated.

I definitely agree that Low 2-C and above levels of EE are still AP, but now I guess I am more neutral regarding lower ones but leaning towards thinking EE feats could still be treated the same way our creation feats calculation policies are.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I was using hax as "an ability", apologies Bambu, I will be precise next time.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far, and can somebody write an easy to understand explanation of what is being suggested here, as I have limited time available?

 

[Reiner04]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far, and can somebody write an easy to understand explanation of what is being suggested here, as I have limited time available?

EE shouldn't scale to AP/ED: @Damage3245 , @Mr._Bambu , @KingTempest , @Crabwhale , @DemonGodMitchAubin , @LordGriffin1000

EE should be ED: @DontTalkDT , @DarkDragonMedeus , @Maverick_Zero_X

Although it was later clarified that EE is treated as hax and our hax page already states that hax don't scale to AP. So I think @Maverick_Zero_X and @DontTalkDT have to clarify their opinion once again.

 

[Antvasima]

EE shouldn't scale to AP/ED: @Damage3245 , @Mr._Bambu , @KingTempest , @Crabwhale , @DemonGodMitchAubin , @LordGriffin1000

EE should be ED: @DontTalkDT , @DarkDragonMedeus , @Maverick_Zero_X

Although it was later clarified that EE is treated as hax and our hax page already states that hax don't scale to AP. So I think @Maverick_Zero_X and @DontTalkDT have to clarify their opinion once again.

Okay. Thank you for the information.

@DontTalkDT @Maverick_Zero_X

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

In light of recent arguments the consensus that EE shouldn't scale to AP below Tier 2 is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems like the staff majority decision here leans towards not scaling EE to AP below tier 2 then.

Is that acceptable for you, @DontTalkDT and @DarkDragonMedeus ?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still overall prefer if erasing an Earth sized planet is more in line with our ED standards; I know some staff have been divided on our creation feats standards too; some of them don't think creation feats less than Tier 2 should be AP at all with reason being that "EE was the true inverse of creation." Though the majority still agrees that GBE is our minimal standards for celestial body creation and some have worried that topic might get reverted if people don't like using EE less than Tier 2. But I can see differences as Bambu brought up. I definately still agree Tier 2 and above levels of EE still fall in line consistently with our Creation and/or EE standards. But more neutral towards of EE feats less than Tier 2 either qualify or treated as just hax but lean towards them being okay. But if I'm outvoted, so be it.

 

[KingTempest]

Issue with that is that we now have a rule that we need to have a value for every rating there is.

With that being said, every feat needs to be quantifiable.

Creation can be quantifiable, as objects have energy that they emit by being created and just by existing.

Erasure doesn’t.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Reiner04]

The thread has fair number of opposition being on different sides, how it'll reach a proper consensus/conclusion?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here?

 

[Reiner04]

Which staff members think what here?

6(only hax not AP) : 3(environmental destruction)
But considering Donttalkdt, DDM and maverick (Admins) are on it being environmental destruction, it is kinda deadlocked...

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Maverick swapped to agreeing that Tier 2 and below ought not be considered AP. It is a 7-2 split, though I'm aware that DT's opinion is generally the one listened to on matters such as these.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanation post regarding what need to be evaluated here please? Including all of the staff-supported suggestions that have been mentioned here.

Also, can somebody write a full staff tally, including usernames, for this thread please?

 

[omegabronic]

Okay so the agreement seems to be on only putting EE in the ap section only for tier 2 and above, correct?