Staff input needed: A new One-Shot term page

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ant told me to make this after making the blog of it. The other thread is still going on, which discusses on whether or not we should have this page in the first place, which we probably should (I said we shouldn't on the original thread, but that was a lapse in judgement). This is for perfecting it when we do have the page.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_real_cal_howard/One-Shot

This is an outline for a potential page on one-shots. The staff should discuss any changes that could/should be made before posting it as a page. And then we decide on whether or not it's ready.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No probs, Ant.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The blog looks pretty good, but gonna copy/paste my post from previous thread.

This does seem like a case by case scenario IMO and really depends. It's not just Character A AP divided by Character B durability, but where the character is hit is also a factor. Plus, most characters have durability that's technically higher than their Attack Potency depending on how you look at it. There's also the difference between durability and stamina to consider. Some characters, while having great survivability, are susceptible to chip damage, whereas there do also exist characters who seem to be either one-shotted, or take no damage at all.

Also, Attack Potency/Durability isn't 100% linear, like 10 consecutive hits with X joules energy isn't quite the same as a single 10X Joule attack. I suppose we can highlight the thread.

 

[Crzer07]

Difference between "One Shot" and "One Hit Kill"? When coming up with something new make sure there aren't already something similar existing out there, or at least note the differences. My guess is this is supposed to be a physical thing only, but I say stuff like energy projections can also be similar to physical stats or can scale to durability and is erroneous to say only physical one does.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

We treat One-shot AP weirdly here.

In VS debates we seem to generally agree upon a 3-5x value. Considerably less than that if it is a blow to the head or other vital areas.

But within fiction, we are all over the place and can't seem to agree upon anything. If you ask me, a reasonable lowball would be 1.5-2x energy needed to one-shot someone to account for weakpoints that a character may hit within fiction. It will also hopefully prevent powerscaling from going completely out of wack.

 

[Andytrenom]

There are different things to keep in mind when deciding a value for a VS matchup than when deciding a value for rating a character. If you make the value 5x when scaling a character, then it will lead to inflated results, and if you make 1.5X in a VS matchup, well... good luck finding two characters close enough to have a proper battle with other.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

You typically only start getting characters with ridiculously high AP differences between eachother. around tiers High 6-A and above.

I meant 1.5 to 2x for scaling a character. Idk for VS matchups.

 

[Mand21]

There are different things to keep in mind when deciding a value for a VS matchup than when deciding a value for rating a character. If you make the value 5x when scaling a character, then it will lead to inflated results, and if you make 1.5X in a VS matchup, well... good luck finding two characters close enough to have a proper battle with other.

You could make the opposite and require 5x to one-shot regardless of where it hits on a versus thread, while scaling characters through the 1.5x metric by handwaving that a bit of precision might have counted and using that to stay safe. xP

EDIT: Removed unnecessary parts since this is the Staff Discussion Board. Actually, sorry for my interference, I hadn't noticed it previously.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reppuzan did say that 100x seems like a rather rough assumption to guarantee a one shot, but I do think simply having 4-5x gap assuming a one shot might be stretching it. Plus, pressure points for example can have it were simply being 1.1x stronger enables character A to at least knock character B unconscious. That's another thing, there's a difference between killing an opponent and simply knocking them out, which is another indicator to show Durability Vs Stamina.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Reppuzan did say that 100x seems like a rather rough assumption to guarantee a one shot, but I do think simply having 4-5x gap assuming a one shot might be stretching it. Plus, pressure points for example can have it were simply being 1.1x stronger enables character A to at least knock character B unconscious. That's another thing, there's a difference between killing an opponent and simply knocking them out, which is another indicator to show Durability Vs Stamina.

Are you refering to VS debates or Scaling within a series?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Vs Threads

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

This does also matter within different verses as well. Not all of them treat the same value as a one shot

 

[Mand21]

This does also matter within different verses as well. Not all of them treat the same value as a one shot

Not to mention, this whole "Durability vs Stamina" thing made me think... what if one-shooting someone isn't quantifiable at all because of exactly that? Protagonists more often than not take blows that people similar to them got really screwed up by and can still at least sorta fight or stand up with some difficulty, with even their opponents pointing out they should be dead already. This is interpreted as them having not only enough durability to not take more damage than they can survive, but also to keep up with the damage they do take.

This way, characters who are either one-shot or barely take damage from something can be explained off as having a pretty low stamina where while they have whatever durability they may have, they are "*******" who get more easily debilitated by lower amounts of damage. It's not that their bodies break easily: it's that they break easily. Would be the game equivalent of having a reasonable amount of defense points, but a low HP, like two rogues fighting to the death being a shorter battle than two fighters/monks/tankers fighting to the death, even if they all end up using weapons and defenses of similar quality and don't specifically use assassin-ish skills (maybe the monk comparison looks better, then).

So, I'm sorry to interfere again (I swear, if someone calls me out, I'll stop commenting here immediately, so feel free to tell me or even to delete my comments and generically say non-staff should avoid this thread), but I think what DDM and LTI have pointed can be interpreted in an interesting way for this page you're likely going to make: it's not just about how higher one's AP is compared to another's durability, it's also about the stamina of the one with lower-durability-than-enemy-AP getting hit.

And I know we don't have this system, but I think that the way this site tends to put stamina as both your health bar and your energy bar might be what causes some difficulty noticing this kind of problem: we don't have anything like a Resilience attribute, even though Resilience is exactly what a health bar means. We do have something like zombies and their immortality by resilience, but we don't have higher resilience before that like we have longevity before "immortality by unlimited longevity". Feats of being able to still fight after taking heavy blows and damages are put on the same block as feats of being able to fight after using your special attack several times over throughout hours of nonstop fighting at peak capacity. Resilience is also easier to gauge than Stamina, and Stamina is already sorta easier to gauge than Intelligence, thus maybe, even if changing the system can prove very difficulty, trying to understand how they're separete constructs can allow for this page to be made in a more understandable and realistic fashion, as well as prevent potential issues from the future which might be related to this.

Um... I hope I didn't spout out a lot of BS. Tends to happen when I speak a lot or make suggestions. That's all.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Mand

I get you man. Also there are characters like Blackbeard who, tho their actual durability isn't any lower than those of his level, feels double the pain from attacks, so he appears to take more damage then he actually does; where as characters such as Hazel (from RWBY) feel no pain at all so they may not even react to damage at all, regardless of their durability.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm, there is still no staff input for improvements to Cal's blog post.

 

[Mand21]

@Mand
I get you man. Also there are characters like Blackbeard who, tho their actual durability isn't any lower than those of his level, feels double the pain from attacks, so he appears to take more damage then he actually does; where as characters such as Hazel (from RWBY) feel no pain at all so they may not even react to damage at all, regardless of their durability.

Exactly this. I believe this would need some sort of discussion, but if we sit down and check, we can make some scaling on Resilience just as there is a scale with levels for Regenerationn. I mean, you can have levels like a kid who gets just a slightly bleeding scratch on a toe and struggles to walk because the pain hinders them too much, up to a man who, so long as they can remain alive after something, they'll still be able to fight normally/will themselves into fighting as well as their body allows (like many villains with Regenerationn that brings them back from "this should have been overkill" scenarios). I don't know how feasible/applicable it is, though, and like Antvasima has put, we still need the staff to intervene.

So, I guess I'm shutting up for the while until that happens.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't see anything that requires that much of an improvement.

 

[Antvasima]

@Monarch

So you think that Cal's draft version is fine the way that it is then?

 

[Antvasima]

One thing that I noticed is that the specific examples of characters seem inappropriate to talk about in a generalised context, and most readers will not understand the references.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the input. As I mentioned in the last post, I think that we should remove the specific examples of characters though. Among other things, they interrupt the flow of the text.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Maybe. I don't see the interuption, but they don't really add much either, as I think most people have an idea of what a one-shot is

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[fandom_031nch22]

Good job man .

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Eh I think Cal's blog looks good as is.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that he can probably create the page then, although it might be best if I edit out the specific mentions afterwards.

 

[Andytrenom]

Just one thing. I believe it should be mentioned that in a vs thread a 5x gap in AP is usually considered enough for a one-shot to happen. Doing so will help members avoid creating stomp matches between characters who are placed in the same tier.

 

[Mand21]

Just one thing. I believe it should be mentioned that in a vs thread a 5x gap in AP is usually considered enough for a one-shot to happen. Doing so will help members avoid creating stomp matches between characters who are placed in the same tier.

This should be done while adding the fact that in real life, a 10% advantage is often already sufficient if one hits the right spots, however of course not enough for us to consider any match with just that difference a stomp.

 

[Crzer07]

given that the real life verse is the weakest verse there is, of course given that ppl like u and me are highly vulnerable being that our weak spots are more exposed than ones in fiction. such as being bashed over the head, kicked in the groin, punched in the gut, heck we can even get 1 shotted but a much weaker person. the mechanics of the real life verse is much more strict as well, as it takes a life time of training or excercise for most people just to move up a tier from bloody 10-B to 10-A, real life 9-C being restricted to the seals and other crazy ass mofos.

 

[Antvasima]

Stick to the topic please.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we create this page?

We already have a verse page called OneShot, but I do not think that will constitute a problem.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Agreed

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will handle it.

 

[Antvasima]

I have posted it:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/One-Shot

Help to improve on the quality and flow of the language would be very appreciated.