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Spirit Sign "Massive Touhou Upgrades"

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Yes I know I said I was supposed to be taking a break, and yes I’m aware that doing this now is a bad idea on my end. There is no third point. This is something I’ve wanted to tackle for a while, but I’m glad I held off on it because I’m not sure I would’ve been able to do it justice when I still sucked at VS debating (not like I’m much better at it nowadays :v).

Spirit is probably the most commonly recurring mechanic across Touhou as a whole, yet oddly enough, it has never been indexed on this wiki in any meaningful way. This thread aims to do exactly that.

Also just to get this out of the way to dissuade any mods complaining about Touhou spam, it was decided that we should focus on the most important revisions first. Considering this thread aims to add about a dozen powerful hax to nearly every single character, I would say that it is more than important enough.

What is Spirit?

Despite its presence in virtually all Touhou games since EoSD, there’s never been a clear, cohesive explanation on what it actually is. But we can start by looking at what is referred to as spirit in the first place.

Starting with the STGs, the little power items you see drop from enemies when defeating them are actually called ‘spirit power’, as mentioned in several manuals over the years. And yes, said items ARE canon, as Sanae explicitly confirms their existence in UFO.

The fighting games expand upon this concept somewhat; Every single fighter gives each character a spirit bar, which we know to be the actual name of it because the training mode for each game refers to it as such (one of Suika's spell cards that affects the spirit bar is also specifically said to be affecting spirit power).

Then we have Gouyoku Ibun, which refers to spirit as a character’s stamina. So right off the bat we have one option for what spirit is.

So spirit is the power items you pick up in the STGs and the bar present in all fighting games. This will be important in a bit.

As for what spirit is actually composed of, the best place to start is with Tenshi. One of her spell cards is simultaneously described as spirit and temperament; Which means spirit is just temperament, and people refer to the same basic thing using both terms.

Supporting this is Marisa’s description of the card, which describes it as spirit, juxtaposed with the in-game description of it, which once again refers to it as temperament. We also have Kokoro, whose spell cards that weaponize her emotions are utilizing spirit.

Then we have Yuyuko directly equating the two in SWR. For further context, the spirit pouring off of everyone’s bodies takes the form of a scarlet mistwith said mist repeatedly being referred to as temperament. So we have pretty explicit and consistent confirmation that spirit and temperament are one and the same.

That’s nice and all, but now we need to know what temperament is. As shown in one of the spell card descriptions above, Hatate mentions that the spirit energy/temperament being used by Tenshi is actually a collection of negative emotions. And as repeatedly stated throughout Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, temperament is a manifestation of one’s emotions, and it’s even said to be the subconscious. That and the definition of temperament is one’s mental characteristics or disposition.

Further expanding upon what temperament is is Komachi, who states that temperament is the same as phantoms. We also have Youmu stating that the scarlet clouds of temperament are made of phantoms.

That brings us to PMiSS, which states that phantoms are the souls of living beings. The Soul Torch, an item designed to attract souls, is explicitly stated to work on phantoms. Komachi is also said to ferry phantoms, but said phantoms are referred to as souls. Supporting the idea that temperament/phantoms are souls is how, when confronted at the end of SWR, Tenshi says that the scarlet mist brought about by her is ‘the essence of living things’.

Last but not least, we have Sakuya stating that the scarlet mist being emitted is chi, and yet again mentions it being phantoms, thus adding chi to the list of spirit synonyms and further solidifying the idea that spirit is souls.

In case there were any more doubts about the scarlet mist in SWR being spirit, Tenshi literally says that what she’s absorbing is spirit.

So the conclusion here is that spirit is equal to temperament (emotions), and in turn, phantoms (souls). Or to simplify it further, spirit is the soul and emotion of all beings, as well as stamina based on 17.5’s manual and chi based on another statement. Honestly, the spirit = souls thing should’ve been obvious from the name alone, but I felt the need to be thorough here.

How Does it Work?

The first thing to note about spirit power is how it’s gathered. In the shooting games, defeating enemies causes them to drop the aforementioned spirit power pickups, after which you can grab them to increase your own spirit power in turn, while moving to the top of the screen causes all power items to be automatically drawn to you. Enemies are also capable of causing the player to drop spirit power with every successful attack. The fighting games work somewhat similarly, as when striking an opponent, their spirit meter actively decreases.

So we know that with every hit, characters reduce the amount of spirit power present in their opponents, and can steal it for themselves in the midst of combat. Now that we know that spirit is just a fancy way of saying souls, we can recontextualize ‘destroying and absorbing spirit’ to ‘destroying and absorbing souls’; A clear cut example of Soul Manipulation & Absorption.

But there’s more we can do with this. In the STGs, the amount of spirit power is directly correlated to the amount of damage you deal; More spirit power, more damage, and conversely, less spirit power, less damage. This is something explicitly stated by the manuals. As such, via the ability to reduce or steal spirit power to increase your own power while decreasing your opponent’s, this would be Statistics Amplification & Reduction.

With the previous context of spirit power also being stamina, the process of destroying/stealing spirit would decrease an opponent’s stamina while increasing your own, so this would be Stamina Reduction & Stealing.

Another important thing to note is that, in the fighting games, spirit is required to use flight and the majority of one’s special moves. Using these techniques depletes the spirit gauge, and they cannot be used at all while possessing insufficient spirit. With the prior context of characters being able to reduce the spirit of their opponents, this would be Power Nullification, as it can prevent their opponent from flying or using certain techniques.

Furthermore, with spirit being equivalent to temperament, and temperament being a primary component in the usage of spells, this further complements the idea of spirit reduction being a form of power null. It’s also said that, due to the mental layer of reality, magic is a force that moves alongside the spirit, implying the two are directly intertwined and affecting one affects the other.

On the topic of fighting games, every character naturally regenerates lost spirit over time. Every character can do this, and it only takes a few seconds for this to occur, even if their spirit is effectively at zero. This is where things get complicated, because there is no actual consensus on what regenerating just your soul is; I’ve seen people say it’s mid-godly, low-godly, or just good soulhax. Ultimately, this will need to be discussed in the thread itself, and I am more than open to other suggestions. However, it should be noted that youkai and Hourai immortals can already regenerate from bodily destruction, so regardless of which end we go with they would be upgraded to mid-godly due to being able to regenerate the soul as well. @Hecatia_Gaming has suggested noting that the mid-godly only applies to souls, while also upgrading youkai and Hourai immortals to full mid-godly. This is my personal preference for what we should go with as well.

This leads into yet another ability: Reducing the rate of your opponent’s regeneration. When applying a guard crush, a portion of your opponent’s spirit will temporarily recover at a decreased rate. A better and more clear explanation of this can be taken from the koumakan wiki. While this is not regeneration negation per se, it is still actively limiting the extent of said regeneration, and would thus be better qualified as Regeneration Reduction.

When spirit is reduced to 0 in the fighting games, this induces a ‘guard crush’ that briefly stuns the opponent, a very clear example of Status Effect Inducement.

Furthermore, as we’ve established that spirit is equivalent to temperament, and temperament is the emotional state of a living being, this means manipulation spirit is akin to manipulating emotions, or in other words, Empathic Manipulation. Because temperament is also the subconscious, this would also be Mind Manipulation. Adding onto this is Chi Manipulation since spirit is, well, chi.

Because everybody can recover from emotional draining/destruction and a loss in stamina in mere seconds, spirit regeneration should also qualify for Supernatural Willpower.

When hitting an opponent while any projectiles they've fired are on the field, the attack will be cancelled and turned into spirit power, which is then automatically absorbed. This would be Attack Nullification as well as Transmutation, as it is changing the structure of what the danmaku was originally into spirit power.

Spirit manipulation even works on characters like Yoshika or Mayumi (you can see them drop spirit power in the scans provided), despite the fact that they lack spirit entirely; This means spirit manipulation can be performed on characters who should have outright immunity to it, granting Immunity/Resistance Negation. It is important to note that this is not an outlier, as it occurs on two distinct occasions, is similar to other illogical showings of negation (like Yukari being able to induce death in Mokou, who lacks a concept of death entirely), and in the case of Mayumi, the entire plot of the game she's in hinges on her not having a soul. Additionally, spirit manipulation cannot be simply targeting other aspects of what spirit is in these cases, as Yoshika and Mayumi lack minds to affect as well. However, it should also be noted that spirit manipulation works equally well on characters who resist things like soulhax; For example, it works fine on Futo, who can resist getting hit by dream souls in her AoCF route, which ordinarily removes one's soul from their body and sends it to the dream world. Due to this, it should qualify as Resistance Negation regardless of where we end up on the matter of immunity negation.

Everybody should also get Resistance to Soul Manipulation via surviving all of this. They are quite literally having their souls destroyed or ripped from their bodies, and while doing so does negatively impact them as demonstrated above, the fact remains that soul destruction does not kill them. Thus, they can survive without a soul despite the negative effects it imposes on them. Note that this would necessitate the removal of resistance to soul absorption already present on most profiles. The only characters who would keep it are those who do not qualify for spirit manipulation in the first place.

In case this seems questionable, let’s look at another feat that supports this: Tenshi absorbing the souls of all living things with 0 casualties. First off, the fact that nobody died is evidenced by how the text never mentions some kind of mass death across Gensokyo, which would’ve been the case if soul hax did kill people, and ultimately every single character we see in Touhou canon today is still very much alive (aside from the undead, but since their bodies are purely souls anyways, the fact that they didn’t get absorbed/destroyed is enough for a resistance). And just to prove that this IS a universal thing, Youmu outright says the temperament “of all living things” is rising. This isn’t even exclusive to Gensokyo, as it was also causing phantoms to disappear from the Netherworld, proving that this absorption is spreading across Otherworlds and can therefore be applied to just about everyone (the fact that it was specifically affecting phantoms further helps prove the temperament = souls argument).

And Tenshi isn’t just absorbing souls, either; She is actively destroying them. Yet in spite of this, nobody died, and what’s more, everybody obviously still has their spirits intact post-SWR; A very clear case of spirit regeneration, since said spirit was destroyed, but ultimately came back. This should make the potential mid-gody regen far less questionable.

Finally, while this is not an application of spirit manipulation in and of itself, it should be noted that Fear Manipulation is a potential delivery method of spirit manipulation, should hitting the target not be viable. For instance, Kogasa's ability is surprising/scaring people, a trait shared by other tsukumogami. Successfully scaring someone can drain them of their spirit. This, naturally, should give all tsukumogami Fear Manipulation, with an additional note on how this causes a loss in spirit to the target.

Additionally, this applies to all youkai to a certain extent as well. All youkai possess an aura often referred to as 'youkai energy' that can cause one to feel pins and needles throughout their body (being strong enough to deliver these effects even while sealed away) and make one start to tremble; Clear cases of Aura, Fear Manipulation, & Sense Manipulation.

Conclusions

Everybody who is shown to be fighting within a Touhou game should get the following:

-Soul Manipulation & Absorption (Through repeated attacks, one can reduce an opponent’s reserves of spirit power, as well as take said spirit and use it to empower themselves)

-Statistics Amplification (A greater amount of spirit power increases the damage dealt with basic attacks)

-Statistics Reduction (Via reducing their opponent’s spirit power, which in turn weakens their attacks)

-Stamina Reduction & Stealing (Spirit power is also equivalent to one’s stamina, and as such reducing or absorbing spirit power is equivalent to absorbing or reducing stamina)

-Power Nullification (Via reducing one’s spirit power/temperament, which is a primary component in the usage of magic, and is required to use flight and certain techniques such as skill cards)

-Status Effect Inducement (Reducing one’s spirit power enough can cause them to become temporarily stunned)

-Empathic Manipulation & Mind Manipulation (Spirit is the same as one’s temperament, and as such controlling it is equivalent to controlling one’s emotions and subconscious)

-Chi Manipulation (Spirit is additionally the same as chi)

-Regeneration Reduction (Fully draining an opponent’s spirit reduces the rate at which it naturally recovers)

-Immunity/Resistance Negation (Spirit manipulation even works on beings like Yoshika or Mayumi, who lack spirits to manipulate in the first place. Additionally, spirit manipulation works equally well on characters who have some degree of resistance to soul manipulation)

-Resistance to Soul Manipulation (Can survive even when their spirit has been completely absorbed or destroyed. Survived Tenshi absorbing and subsequently destroying the souls of all living things across Gensokyo and various Otherworlds)

-Regeneration (Mid-Godly) OR Regeneration (Low-Godly) OR Soul Manipulation (Can regenerate their spirit after a few seconds, even if it has been completely absorbed or destroyed)

-Supernatural Willpower (Spirit regeneration also allows one to recover their stamina quickly, or recover from having their emotions drained and being affected by fear)

-Attack Nullification & Transmutation (Striking an opponent while they are attacking will turn their attack into spirit power)

Additionally, all youkai should get the following:

-Aura, Fear Manipulation, & Sense Manipulation (All youkai possess 'youkai energy' that takes the form of an aura, capable of causing people to start to tremble and feel pins and needles throughout their body. This aura is strong enough to be felt even while sealed away, and successfully inducing fear in a target will drain them of their spirit)

Tsukumogami will gain the following addendum to this description:

(Like all tsukumogami, she can surprise people to induce fear and gain a portion of their spirit)

This isn’t really feasible to put on every single profile (save for the youkai fear manipulation stuff) since many are already artificially bloated with other in-verse mechanics and physiology that overwrite traits actually unique to the character, and since this is a primary energy source/mechanic in-verse I believe it is best to treat this as a unique verse power with its own page. Every character who qualifies will get ‘Spirit Manipulation’ under their P&A, which would link to that page. Given most of the necessary information is already present in this thread, if everything is accepted, I can mostly just copy/paste what’s already here (with a few necessary edits to make it appropriate for a blog).

AGREE: Shiroiyo, GlaceonGamez471, Pixy (Neutral on immunity negation), FantRin_The_First (Disagree with immunity negation and power null), BlastX, Vietthai96 (Disagrees with immunity negation and power null), Angelzewolf (Neutral on power null), Hecatia_Gaming, OnsokunoSonic, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless (Disagrees with immunity negation), Shmooply (Neutral on immunity negation), Jibz (Neutral, leaning disagree on immunity negation), DaimaouAshura (Neutral on immunity negation), Kirbonic_Pikmin, Zencha9 (Disagrees with immunity negation), OverlordDonnelly (Neutral on immunity negation), Maverick_Zero_X (Neutral on immunity negation), Yemma670 (Disagree with immunity negation)

DISAGREE: Malomtek, TheGreatJedi13

NEUTRAL: Theglassman12 (Disagree with immunity negation)
 
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@OverlordDonnelly brought up a good point regarding Tenshi's range over Discord; We currently consider it planetary due to the outdated notion that Heaven is planetary in size (it isn't, we currently accept it as infinite); Since it was at bare minimum extending into Gensokyo, which is its own brane world, and the Netherworld (which is also an infinitely sized dimension), this should qualify for low multiversal range.
 
Thanks. I personally think it's mid-godly, though if there are examples of characters with similar regeneration feats we could just go by example. Can't think of anybody outside of Touhou who'd qualify, though.
 
While I am more primarily inclined towards the typical Touhou games myself and only played one of the fighting games a year or so ago, this upgrade seems sensible and agreeable to me.. So Agreed, and following with great interest! Although for the Regeneration (Mid-Godly) OR Regeneration (Low-Godly) OR Soul Manipulation part, I would personally choose Soul Manipulation since with the exception of the humans (Reimu, Marisa, etc) and Cirno, I am sure that all of the other fighting games cast already has Regeneration in the Godly degree, so it would be redundant to give 'em more regeneration... That, and it would make matches with Cirno even harder to do but... Cirno is weirdly the easiest Touhou character to find a match even considering the whole-wide Touhou cast; perhaps, she is the strongest in this regard at least.
 
While I am more primarily inclined towards the typical Touhou games myself and only played one of the fighting games a year or so ago, this upgrade seems sensible and agreeable to me.. So Agreed, and following with great interest! Although for the Regeneration (Mid-Godly) OR Regeneration (Low-Godly) OR Soul Manipulation part, I would personally choose Soul Manipulation since with the exception of the humans (Reimu, Marisa, etc) and Cirno, I am sure that all of the other fighting games cast already has Regeneration in the Godly degree, so it would be redundant to give 'em more regeneration... That, and it would make matches with Cirno even harder to do but... Cirno is weirdly the easiest Touhou character to find a match even considering the whole-wide Touhou cast; perhaps, she is the strongest in this regard at least.
Well, they only have up to low-godly regeneration; Youkai and Hourai immortals can already recover from bodily destruction, but previously we had nothing indicating that they can regenerate their soul as well. But now that we do have evidence of that, I don't see why we shouldn't upgrade them to mid-godly since that's just regenerating the body + soul.
 
Ah, I didn't know that. If that is the case, I agree that they should have Mid-Godly Regen! ... Maybe tackle in Soul Manipulation if possible, but idk. I'll leave all of the Touhou stuff to you, and I'll throw in whatever support my agreement can give you!
 
Soul Manipulation & Absorption
Idk about this part but the ability seem really limited, especially the absorption part, it is like you can only absorb it after you kill the enemy
Power Nullification
Doesn't seem power null at all, you just decrease the energy so they can't use their abilities, not directly nullifying the ability itself. By all mean it is energy reduction or something similar.
Regeneration Reduction
It is not regeneration, it is healing, recover HP or something similar is just healing, you need to have feat of regenerating
Immunity/Resistance Negation
It is not, you confuse negation with potency, this is just the hax in question have good potency which can affect people who lack soul, it not negate any resistance

other is fine a think. Mid Godly should be in different thread
 
Idk about this part but the ability seem really limited, especially the absorption part, it is like you can only absorb it after you kill the enemy
Not really. In the fighting games, you can convert the danmaku of your opponent into spirit power and absorb it if you land a hit on them. I'll try to get footage of it later, since I'm a little busy at the moment.
 
Idk about this part but the ability seem really limited, especially the absorption part, it is like you can only absorb it after you kill the enemy
At bare minimum the soul destruction triggers on every single attack, and absorption doesn't require you to kill the enemy because this also works on stage bosses, who obviously aren't dying because you talk to them mere seconds afterwards. Also, said stage bosses drop spirit power at various points throughout their fight, not only after you beat them.

Doesn't seem power null at all, you just decrease the energy so they can't use their abilities, not directly nullifying the ability itself. By all mean it is energy reduction or something similar.
It's not really 'energy' in the same sense as, say, energy manipulation or energy projection. If something is considered a source of magic in-verse, then by all means being able to destroy or otherwise limit someone's access to that source should qualify for power null.

It is not regeneration, it is healing, recover HP or something similar is just healing, you need to have feat of regenerating
...It's not HP though, it's literally their souls. What you're asking for is passive self-healing, which we have no reason not to categorize as regeneration because that's what regeneration is. Also, the page for healing specifies that it can be used on others, and there are no feats of characters restoring a separate character's spirit power.

It is not, you confuse negation with potency, this is just the hax in question have good potency which can affect people who lack soul, it not negate any resistance
The thing about immunity is that, no matter how strong or layered your hax are, you cannot harm somebody who has total immunity to the thing you're trying to harm. Even if Touhou characters had infinitely layered hax, that wouldn't give them the ability to magically bypass immunity. Although, if I'm wrong and infinitely layered hax can bypass immunity, then I am equally fine with using that as well.
 
It's not really 'energy' in the same sense as, say, energy manipulation or energy projection. If something is considered a source of magic in-verse, then by all means being able to destroy or otherwise limit someone's access to that source should qualify for power null
That not power null, spirit is the source allow them to use power, lost it in turn made them unable to use power, it is an indirect effect, you by all mean do not actually nullify their power, it is just that you reduce their spirit to the point they can't have enough spirit to use power
The thing about immunity is that, no matter how strong or layered your hax are, you cannot harm somebody who has total immunity to the thing you're trying to harm. Even if Touhou characters had infinitely layered hax, that wouldn't give them the ability to magically bypass immunity. Although, if I'm wrong and infinitely layered hax can bypass immunity, then I am equally fine with using that as well.
That wrong, resistance negation is, you actively nullify their resistance toward hax, not because the hax is more potent. Can soul hax something which have no soul is just the hax is more potent
At bare minimum the soul destruction triggers on every single attack, and absorption doesn't require you to kill the enemy because this also works on stage bosses, who obviously aren't dying because you talk to them mere seconds afterwards. Also, said stage bosses drop spirit power at various points throughout their fight, not only after you beat them.
oke then
...It's not HP though, it's literally their souls. What you're asking for is passive self-healing, which we have no reason not to categorize as regeneration because that's what regeneration is. Also, the page for healing specifies that it can be used on others, and there are no feats of characters restoring a separate character's spirit power.
HP is just a comparison. What you describe is literally restoration of power or healing. Not regen
 
That not power null, spirit is the source allow them to use power, lost it in turn made them unable to use power, it is an indirect effect, you by all mean do not actually nullify their power, it is just that you reduce their spirit to the point they can't have enough spirit to use power
So if a character in a generic fantasy setting needs mana to cast spells, and somebody is able to deny them access to that mana through one mean or another, that wouldn't be power null? What exactly would nullifying an in-universe magic system be if not that?

That wrong, resistance negation is, you actively nullify their resistance toward hax, not because the hax is more potent. Can soul hax something which have no soul is just the hax is more potent
That's also wrong, because literally no potency of soulhax can affect soulless beings. It undersells the entire point of what 'immunity' is to say that sufficiently strong hax can just power through it, and I have never seen a single example of this being the case. So just how potent are you suggesting these hax are if they can act functionally identical to immunity negation but don't actually negate immunity?

HP is just a comparison. What you describe is literally restoration of power or healing. Not regen
No, because healing mandates that it can be used on other people, which isn't the case here. You haven't really explained what the difference is between healing that triggers passively and only affects the user and regeneration, and as far as I'm concerned, there is no difference.
 
So if a character in a generic fantasy setting needs mana to cast spells, and somebody is able to deny them access to that mana through one mean or another, that wouldn't be power null? What exactly would nullifying an in-universe magic system be if not that?
they just lost their energy no cast, it is like a car with fuel, lost the fuel the car can't run, but it function still intact, just need to resupply the fuel so it can run again. Power Null is you nullify the car function, not make the car can't function because their lost fuel
That's also wrong, because literally no potency of soulhax can affect soulless beings. It undersells the entire point of what 'immunity' is to say that sufficiently strong hax can just power through it, and I have never seen a single example of this being the case. So just how potent are you suggesting these hax are if they can act functionally identical to immunity negation but don't actually negate immunity?
Again read the page Resistance Negation, it is literally said you need to negate their resistance. What happen here is, Soul hax can hax soulless being, which mean the hax in question is very strong and have feat of haxing a soulless being, nothing here is negating resistance to soul manipulation. Like one going to list resistance negation because someone can time stop an infinite or immeasurable speed being, because they doesn't negate any kind of resistance, their hax is freakingly powerful, but it will still be resisted if their enemies have resistance to a timestop which can stop infinite or immeasurable speed being. It is similar to, no one going to list Invulnerability to character that have higher tier than their enemies tier
 
Again read the page Resistance Negation, it is literally said you need to negate their resistance. What happen here is, Soul hax can hax soulless being, which mean the hax in question is very strong and have feat of haxing a soulless being, nothing here is negating resistance to soul manipulation. Like one going to list resistance negation because someone can time stop an infinite or immeasurable speed being, because they doesn't negate any kind of resistance, their hax is freakingly powerful, but it will still be resisted if their enemies have resistance to a timestop which can stop infinite or immeasurable speed being. It is similar to, no one going to list Invulnerability to character that have higher tier than their enemies tier
You're missing the point here. You keep going "but the hax are just really strong!" without realizing that that is completely and utterly irrelevant. A character with baseline soulhax can't hurt a soulless being. A character with 5 layers of soulhax can't harm a soulless being. A character with infinite layers of soulhax still can't harm a soulless being. No matter how much you 'stack' hax potency, it can never touch a character with immunity. What option remains besides just straight up negation?

they just lost their energy no cast, it is like a car with fuel, lost the fuel the car can't run, but it function still intact, just need to resupply the fuel so it can run again. Power Null is you nullify the car function, not make the car can't function because their lost fuel
If the power source is supernatural in nature, then being able to restrict that power source is power null. Hell, the power null page says abilities can be nullified before they're even activated, which is quite clearly the case here. Nothing about what I'm suggesting falls outside the guidelines of what power null is and does.
 
You're missing the point here. You keep going "but the hax are just really strong!" without realizing that that is completely and utterly irrelevant. A character with baseline soulhax can't hurt a soulless being. A character with 5 layers of soulhax can't harm a soulless being. A character with infinite layers of soulhax still can't harm a soulless being. No matter how much you 'stack' hax potency, it can never touch a character with immunity. What option remains besides just straight up negation?
Again, it doesn't negate any resistance here, your claim is baseless, and Immunity is not invincible by all mean. again harm a soulless being is just a very good feat, like timestop a being with infinite or immeasurable speed being, no one going to list that timestop as resistance negation. resistance negation is you straight up nullify a character's resistance. please read the page Resistance Negation
If the power source is supernatural in nature, then being able to restrict that power source is power null. Hell, the power null page says abilities can be nullified before they're even activated, which is quite clearly the case here. Nothing about what I'm suggesting falls outside the guidelines of what power null is and does.
What happen here is not even power null, they lose their energy resulting in they have no more spirit power to use power, not their power being directly nullified. Supernatural or natural is not the problem here

Anyway, close to sleeping hours, i will return later
 
Again, it doesn't negate any resistance here, your claim is baseless, and Immunity is not invincible by all mean. again harm a soulless being is just a very good feat, like timestop a being with infinite or immeasurable speed being, no one going to list that timestop as resistance negation. resistance negation is you straight up nullify a character's resistance. please read the page Resistance Negation
But that's... literally what immunity means... The timestop comparison is also a bit of a false equivalency since I don't recall anything stating that time stop is totally ineffectual against those characters.

And yes, I'm aware of what the resistance negation page says. However, there is literally no other way to quantify this ability. Hax potency means jack shit. Hell, I can go through the wiki right now and make a list of all the characters who qualify for it due to their hax overpowering immunity (at bare minimum I know Azure Striker Gunvolt characters are a case like this, as well as stuff like the Hellfire Engine from D&D and some BTD characters). You haven't provided a single alternative to what ignoring immunity is, either. So right now we have a single option for what this ability is (resistance negation) as well as precedent for said ability being fine to use in cases like this. No reason not to go with it.

What happen here is not even power null, they lose their energy resulting in they have no more spirit power to use power, not their power being directly nullified. Supernatural or natural is not the problem here
The distinction does matter, because destroying a source of magical energy is very clearly power null in my eyes. And again, this falls in line with one of the established uses of power null; Nullifying an ability before it's even used.
 
Soul haxxing a soulless being is an anti feat for that soulless being. We shouldn't completely disregard logic even if this is fiction.
 
I'm kinda agree with veitthai about Soul hax against someone who doesn't has soul isn't resistance negation but what is it should be then ?
 
Mayumi being soulless is actually a major plot point in WBaWC; It's the entire reason the beast spirits couldn't harm her and thus had to turn to the protagonists for help. Ignoring that would overwrite the plot of the game, which is obviously a no-go. If we went "oh but she actually does have a soul because of this anti-feat" then the entire narrative falls apart.
 
Look, I get the anti feat argument, but this does not work with what actually happens in the game. If we go with your interpretation, that'd mean the beast spirits could harm the idols and there would be no game, because there would be no reason to get the protagonists involved. Mayumi literally needs to lack a soul for any of this to make sense.
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I don't think we should rule out resistance/immunity negation, especially in Mayumi's case as it involves plot. I also think the powernull is valid, the characters literally can't use magic, spells, etc... which should qualify as anti-magic. Finally, let's try not to be arguing in circles and fill the thread with comments, this crt is important.
 
Strongly agree with what Shiroiyo is saying, this CRT out of all of them needs to be well organized and easy to understand, so we should wait for further opinions rather than debate the same points endlessly.
 
I agree with pretty much everything. I'm a little neutral towards Power Nullification since I kind of see where both sides are coming from. And I don't fully understand it so I rather just stay out unless (somehow) I start to understand enough to make an opinion on it.
 
I agree with mostly everything. However, I don't think the regeneration of the soul qualify totally for Mid-Godly. That's regenerating from the body and soul, not only one. Regardless, that could be given the same treatment as Remilia's profile, said, giving a specific lvl of regeneration for the spirit, while leaving the rest alone.
 
That's a good idea, actually. Just to make sure, you still agree with youkai and Hourai immortals getting full mid-godly, right?
 
Actually, regarding that, youkai bodies are made of spirit, so recovering from bodily destruction should be mid-godly anyways :v

Also if you do have points for mid-godly, you should still post them at some point since I think a high level of regen like this needs all the supporting evidence it can get.
 
Ah

Almost forgot to mention this, but the Sword of Hisou's main ability is ******* with spirit and temperament, and Tenshi describes it as being able to drain emotions. So this further solidifies the spirit/temperament = emotions stuff. Not super necessary since we're all in agreement on that bit, but doesn't hurt to add.
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i have to disagree with resistance negation to spirit manipulation.
if the lore states they are soulless but in game mechanics they drop it then its simply game mechanics which shouldn't be applicable.
also agree with soul haxing someone without a soul is PIS if not contradiction and shouldn't be listed as feat
 
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