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Speedwagon Revision

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ProfessorLord

ProfessorLord

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Because Speedwagon's page is incomplete and admittedly flawed.

Why is he 9-B? The justification on his page is because he killed a zombie all by himself. Zombies in JoJo are have had their attack potency calculated, their durability should be somewhere similar.

But Speedwagon has also cut through an 8-C Jonathan's arm straight to the bone . This should mean he has an 8-C feat, right? So he should be at least 8-C with his boomerang hat.

He also doesn't have any justification on how he can break the fourth wall.
 
The calc you linked for a zombie was actually for a vampire who put on the mask, so that feat shouldn't apply to the zombies that Speedwagon fought.

I feel Speedwagon's feat of cutting Jonathan to the bone is an outlier, as even after that fact Jonathan easily dispatches Speedwagon with a single punch, and after Speedwagon joins Jonathan he doesn't show any feats near that or has was shown to be comparable to Jonathan before and after his training. Like the profile says, outside of that he's only ever shown killing the occasional zombie, and even then it takes a great deal of effort on his part.

The fourth wall break, however, I feel is unjustified from what I know of Part 1.
 
We generally just scale fodder zombies and fodder vampires the same, no? Take Vanilla Ice's page, for example. Otherwise I'm not sure what we'd calculate zombies too, maybe there is a calc floating around somewhere.

It should not be an outlier. JoJo consistently demonstrates 8-B/8-B+ feats. Dio Brando had no doubt that Jonathan would not survive the mean streets of London, so in the story, someone comparable to Jonathan has already acknowledged he would have a hard time coming out alive against people like Speedwagon. This feat alone would put Speedwagon at 8-C, so he'd still be off from what JoJo in terms of consistency.

Plus you can't just claim "outlier" on his only significant fight, how is that fair? How does it stray from what we've seen from him? How does it stray from what we've seen in Phantom Blood?

I'd also like to point out that he manages to dodge the knife Jonathan had propelled at him almost point blank. Jonathan at 8-C has hypersonic+ speeds, so this would be a hypersonic reaction feat for Speedwagon as well. Not only that, but though a held back kick is delivered straight to his face, he manages to come out of it with only a bloody nose.

I still can't find the fourth wall break. I feel it was just put there because he monologues all the time?
 
I don't think so. Fodder Zombies are consitently portrayed as weaker than even a fodder vampires. The only 8-C Zombies are notable ones like Bruford, Dire, and Tarkus, non of which Speedwagon even tried engaging. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, Vanilla Ice's 9-A rating was going to be updated to 8-B soon.

That put, 9-A for Speedwagon doesn't seem like an insane stretch.

someone comparable to Jonathan has already acknowledged he would have a hard time coming out alive against people like Speedwagon.

I mean, the issue is that Speedwagon didn't put up much of a fight outside of that. It took one solid hit from Jonathan to put him out of comission. The other thugs that were with him actually lasted longer, to be honest.

Plus you can't just claim "outlier" on his only significant fight, how is that fair?

I mean, when his only other feat is beating a fodder enemy with significant effort, yes. He doesn't engage with any of the 8-C threats in the entire series.

Not only that, but though a held back kick is delivered straight to his face, he manages to come out of it with only a bloody nose.

The fact that Jonathan was holding back makes the feat even more dubious.
 
Okay, well I am uncertain if there is a calculation for fodder zombies or not, so I will concede this point for now.

Speedwagon just got surprised and knocked back. He isn't unconcious and he isn't hurt other than a bloody nose. We don't know how much Jonathan held back so we can't really downgrade the feat on that basis too much. Perhaps it would have knocked him out if he had not? It definitely wouldn't have killed him. Either way, he survived a somewhat 8-C force.

The thugs were all told off by Speedwagon, I don't think any of them actually fought Jonathan. And that is not him beating a fodder enemy with significant effort, that is him effortlessly defeating a fodder enemy. He swings a hammer and they die. I wouldn't say it took me a lot of effort to bash another mans skull in with a hammer.

JoJo is still around 8-B range and this would place him slightly below that. It's not an outlier because it is consistent with what we've seen from the series.

Still does not change the fact that he dodged a hypersonic+ knife in the same fight and delivered an 8-C attack. You claimed his durability is an outlier, you gonna claim everything else is too?
 
Speedwagon just got surprised and knocked back. He isn't unconcious and he isn't hurt other than a bloody nose.

"Holding Back" is a very loose term across fiction, to the point where the mention of it makes a scaling hard to support. That, and Jonathan was barely even trying to defend himself:

Speedwagon: "Now I know why he wasn't defending himself better! Fingers, hands, legs, he don't give one wit what he loses!"

Even lower Tier attacks can be exaggerated into higher tiers when stuff like "Holding back" and "not defending oneself" is introduced. And considering this is only one attack on both ends, with Jonathan holding back his kick and practically letting himself get hit, yes, it would be hard to let them scale off of each other.

The thugs were all told off by Speedwagon, I don't think any of them actually fought Jonathan.

I mean, one of them cuts into Jonathan's hand right at the beggining of the fight.

JoJo is still around 8-B range and this would place him slightly below that.

Fighting Jonathan before his training, while he's holding back, and then not fighting any other 8-Cs doesn't imply he's near the 8-B threats like Dio in the slightest. It's not even implied he could take on any of the 8-C threats like Dire.
 
I don't see what that statement Speedwagon made has any correlation with Jonathan's durability. This isn't DBZ, Jonathan cannot increase his durability at will. Defending himself implies evading or knocking it away, not that Jonathan was willingly allowing his flesh to not be 8-C. So even if he wasn't defending himself, it doesnt dismiss the fact that it cut through and didn't stop until it reached his literal bone.

Jonathan is 8-C at this time, so yes it would only imply he's bottom barrel 8-C since he was launched back by a kick from Jonathan. He can't take on any other 8-C threats because they're likely much stronger than him, and they have a martial art literally dedicated to blocking pointed forces. (See Joseph vs ACDC)
 
To be clear, doesn't matter what tier Speedwagon is in for me personally, but the 8-C thing should be viable only with the Boomerang Hat. Not 8-C Speedwagon in general, just with the hat.
 
So even if he wasn't defending himself, it doesnt dismiss the fact that it cut through and didn't stop until it reached his literal bone.

To be very fair, that was a statement by Speedwagon, not something that was obvious from the injury itself. Looking at it at face value, that injury incapacitated Jonathan just as much, if not less so, than the knife wound earlier in the fight.

I don't see what that statement Speedwagon made has any correlation with Jonathan's durability. This isn't DBZ, Jonathan cannot increase his durability at will.

At face value, this is a 8-C feat. I am not arguing against that. PIS/Outliers, by definition, are just that; they don't line up with other showings and while the feat in isolation is perfectly valid, it doesn't fit into the larger picture. My main issue is that it doesn't correlate with his other feats throughout the series, and I'm defending that through showing how unreliable this feat is to use in the first place.

He can't take on any other 8-C threats because they're likely much stronger than him, and they have a martial art literally dedicated to blocking pointed forces.

Joseph vs. ACDC isn't the best support for that argument seeing as they're both in 8-B, and Speedwagon didn't even so much as try hitting any of those enemies.

Jonathan wasn't trying to harm/kill him; we can't assume 8-C because it is just as likely that he is in Small Bulding+ and all the way down to his feat of defeating a fodder.
 
Small Building level, possibly Building level seems like the best compromise here.
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with the statement as Jonathan was there to object if there was. But a 9-A attack shouldn't really be able to cut that deep into Jonathan, I don't think.

My problem is that you're calling it an outlier despite there being no other quantifiable feats for Speedwagon. We don't know how strong a fodder zombie is, and even if we did, that feat of him killing one is pretty casual to me. Sure he grunts but that's as far as it goes in terms of exertion. It's not an outlier because it's inconsistent for the series, so that must mean you're implying it's an outlier because it's inconsistent for the character... but the bottom line is we can't tell if it is, and therefore we should not assume it is.

My point was to illustrate that he would in fact lose to other 8-C fighters, because they are higher end then him and they have a martial art dedicated to absorbing the impact from pointed/sharp objects. That fight was demonstrating Joseph jumping on spikes that would have very well killed him. If not, why are they there for training?
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with the statement as Jonathan was there to object if there was.

I mean, he was busy getting hit by and retaliating to the attack.

My problem is that you're calling it an outlier despite there being no other quantifiable feats for Speedwagon...' 'so that must mean you're implying it's an outlier because it's inconsistent for the character... but the bottom line is we can't tell if it is, and therefore we should not assume it is.

He does have other feats, killing the fodder for example. We do know that even fodder zombies can easily kill humans. I'm implying this is an outlier because there are numerous factors within the feat itself that makes it hard to take at face value.

Also, Jonathan's 8-C is baseline from what I'm aware of (I couldn't find an 8-C calc), meaning even if this was a serious feat the fact that Jonathan easily beat him while holding back at least puts Speedwagon at 9-A+.

That fight was demonstrating Joseph jumping on spikes that would have very well killed him. If not, why are they there for training?

Spiked Attacks no working on an 8-B Character does not equate to Spiked attacks working on an 8-C character, and Speedwagon wouldn't have any way of knowing this in the first place.
 
Jonathan had time to deny or correct the statement after he had knocked Speedwagon back, if it were false. This would hold true to JoJo style; revealing things your opponent had assumed was correct that actually was not. This did not happen. Speedwagon is also the monologue character, it's pretty clear Araki had intended for the hat to cut straight to bone.

That's the only other feat he has. Casually killing a fodder character. This does not mean we discount him being able to harm an 8-C fighter, just because he has also casually killed a 9-B. This does not support your claim of outlier.

Jonathan is 8-C because he survived being struck by Tarkus, who scales from this . It's 0.8 tons of tnt, which is well beyond baseline of 0.25. This feat would probably place Speedwagon at around baseline.

You're taking what I'm saying about him out of context. Speedwagon loses to other 8-C JoJo characters because they are stronger than he is, and they have a martial art made to withstand pointed/piercing weaponry. This is what I mean.
 
That's the only other feat he has. Casually killing a fodder character. This does not mean we discount him being able to harm an 8-C fighter, just because he has also casually killed a 9-B. This does not support your claim of outlier.

The feat wasn't casual, it took effort on his part.

It's 0.8 tons of tnt, which is well beyond baseline of 0.25. This feat would probably place Speedwagon at around baseline.

We don't know how much Jonathan was holding back, so at the very least it would be incorrect to assume Jonathan's kick was 8-C. Bambu might have had a a point with 8-C with his hat attacks, but again, Jonathan holding back means that the feat in of itself isn't very reliable. And he doesn't need to "lower his durability" if we just assume this is an outlier.

This was also before Jonathan met Zepelli and began training in Hamon, so I wouldn't know why Jonathan would scale to that feat by the number. At best he'd be baseline.

they have a martial art made to withstand pointed/piercing weaponry. This is what I mean.

That doesn't change the fact that Speedwagon wouldn't know any of this, nor does it support him being comparable to them even remotely.
 
Yes I agree to 8-C with his boomerang hat, that makes more sense than saying it was himself being 8-C. But he himself would still be around 9-B.

This would also fall in line with your logic of Jonathan throwing a casual kick, as it would not be 8-C. Jonathan holding back is not an argument as to why the hat cutting him isn't an 8-C feat, he can't control his durability. It cut through an 8-C fighter, it should be an 8-C weapon.

We've concluded that hamon does not amp Jonathan's strength in the past. He was already physically capable of contesting Dio as a vampire before his hamon training, though not to an 8-B degree. Hamon does not specifically enhance a persons strength, but should allow them to draw more from it. Considering bodybuilders and other athletes already draw 80-90% of their maximum strength, his hamon would not drastically alter himself in anyway. (Except after the deep-pass-overdrive.)

Anyways that has already been heavily debated in past threads and is kind of irrelevant to what's being discussed now, so we should take it for face value as of now, and address that issue if needs be later.

You're still taking it out of context. Speedwagon doesn't need to know they have a martial art made to withstand pointed weaponry, he would still lose with this knowledge or not. Your point was invalid because you said if hes weaker and cannot win against other 8-C fighters that means he isn't 8-C,
 
Alright, I can agree with that. However, I don't think Speedwagon's Dura should be 8-C, as Jonathan holding back to prevent him from being injured could mean that attack could be anywhere in terms of AP.

Ah. I see. While that certainly makes an attack from the hat ineffective even if it was at 8-C, the fact that Speedwagon never attempted any of this doesn't really make it relevant to conversation.

So, can we agree on speed being scaled, and the Hat being 8-C, while his other stats remain the same? (Maybe with Dura we can put a "Possibly 8-C" and clarify he took a hit from Jonathan while he was holding back)
 
Correct I agree with that.

I don't know what this means but yes? If Speedwagon threw his hat at 8-C Jonathan with hamon, he likely would have been unharmed seeing as how it passively resists sharp weaponry.

I can agree on scaling Hypersonic+ speed, the hat being an 8-C weapon, and his other stats remaining the same. I also agree that his durability should be possibily 8-C.

I really just want this as an opportunity to re-work his profile in general. I will also update and flesh it out.

This would wipe all of his fights, right?
 
Yeah, although I'd wait for more input on the matter as I'm not the greatest JoJo expert here.
 
Also, congratulations on becoming a discussion moderator. I think your assessment was 100% fair from the start, even if I had to further explain and detail what I meant.
 
Hey, thanks!

And that's cool, I'm not the most knowledgable on JoJo having only watched the anime once or twice, so I'm glad I could learn more off of this.
 
This has been debated in the past but the general consesus moving forward was that yes, Jonathan was 8-C prior to having hamon. He was able to counter the force of vampire DIO without hamon. While yes, it was not 100%, it was still significant enough to counter Dio's vampiric strength, so it should be around that level.

(Note that Dio launched the limbs of police officers and it 100% decimated the crowd it came in contact to. Meanwhile he literally bends the spear against Jonathan's shoulder and it BENDS AROUND AND SNAPS.)

Not only that, but the logic behind hamon increasing strength was heavily debated. It was agreed that since hamon was not said to increase strength, nor is it implied from its description, that it only provided the normal rejuvenation effects it had displayed in part one. That being said, if it is able to heal a shattered arm instantly, it should be able to allow a person access more of their strength, or their "hysterical strength" that we self-impose so as not to injure ourselves.

But since top level athletes and bodybuilders can already access 80% of their regular strength , having Jonathan access 100% of his strength is not a large enough difference to warrant a change from 8-C, seeing as how his Tarkus feat puts him well above the baseline.

Basically, hamon isn't what makes the man.

I believe that was the general arguments as to why Jonathan is still 8-C even without having hamon. You can find them in the early revision threads, though I'm much too tired to dig them up ATM.
 
Um, I know this a bit irrelevant to the topic right now, but I really wanna know why Speedwagon has 4th wall breaking in his profile.
 
That was agreed on almost immediatly, both TheProfessor and I think there is no justification for it.
 
We've gathered all the proof and nobody seems to wish to comment on the matter.

Is it alright if we conclude this soon?
 
I'll try and message some JoJo KM or supporters, I'd like at least a small amount of input from them before we add this.
 
Okay so here's my two cents: it isn't an outlier, because nothing is consistent. He has 2 feats: cutting 8-C Jonathan, and killing 9-B zombies. So I think his level is unconsistent and should be unknown, or make it like "At least 9-B, possibly 8-C"
 
I don't remember Speedwagon breaking the 4th wall

At all

I disagree on Speedwagon having his durability scaled from Jonathan's AP when he was holding back explicitly to not "sadden his family"
 
So, to wrap this up;

AP changes to Wall level, likely Building level with Blade Hat

Dura doesn't change

Speed is upgraded to Jonathan's level

4th Wall Breaking is removed.
 
It's actually a hat with a buzzsaw installed, not a blade.

It's never really named so I'd call it Boomerang Hat or Buzzsaw Hat
 
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