Speed upgrade for Kizaru and High/Top tiers of One piece??

[TataHakai]

Didn´t this calc was debunk because of the states we get later in Naruto? If I remember right the Ninja alliance use LS teleport weapon(Raikage and Tsunade) and only the third Raikage move which this speed because of his tough body, something who the fouth Raikage can´t do and need help from Tsunade. I don´t have anything against Naruto speed upgrade, didn´t even Madara use later in manga light speed attack?

I'm not arguing for LS haku or part 1 naruto, i'm just saying what was said about haku in databooks and Kishi's work

 

[Chibi14]

Because FTL is a constant in black clover, we have a lot of statements to scale characters from and it's not only a top tier that is supposed to be that fast
If Kizaru's attacks are LS and we get an FTL feat from those attacks from someone who isn't supposed to be able to defeat Kizaru then it'd make no sense scaling wise.

Just saying even if the statement is fine it may lead to scaling problems, it MAY.

You need many characters who we can scale? Then Niji sword was called Light speed sword, Kuma air attack travel at light speed(was state both in manga and Databook). Pre Luffy was already fast enough to kick casual lightning. Can you show me other character outside of Licht who was state as light speed aswell in Black Clover??

Kizaru is the fastest Admiral(was state in databook aswell), their aren´t much character who are faster then him(possibly Lucky Roo but this is even debatle). The other can keep up with Kizaru because of reaction speed(Haki).

 

[The_Calaca]

@Torch

The fact that Kizaru becomes light after he activates the YNK to travel through it is more than enough to put that argument out of discusion.

In that case the light that Kizaru projects with the YNK is the wires while Kizaru is the electrons travelling through them. He needs to become light itself in order to travel at such speeds.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Calaca

Nobody ever argued that he can't turn into light. People argue that he can only do it with his YNK

 

[Chibi14]

There is the same discussion on NF about this subject, and I'll just quote a certain person:
"

basically Kizaru's light's first problem is because of its portrayal.

1. it can be stationary -> so it isn't always lightspeed.

2. it can move at a very slow pace -> so again it isn't always lightspeed. We have seen this when he connected his upper and lower body.

3. Brook have seen kizaru's light before Kizaru could translocate from one location to another -> which basically points that Kizaru is far more slower than his own light.

4. Rayleigh literally stopped kizaru after his light has traveled but before kizaru got sent to that intended location, which proves point 3.

5. and more of the same shit that again will still affect the input of the databook.

basically Kizaru himself before he becomes light due to his traveling ability is slower than lightspeed.

Hence he is only lightspeed when traveling through the mirror.

"

This post didn´t answer for the whole databook news. It isn´t only about movement speed but attack speed are said in the new databook aswell and now we have both Manga and databook who said that Kizaru attacks are in light speed.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Calaca
Nobody ever argued that he can't turn into light. People argue that he can only do it with his YNK

While that's not the case. Kizaru kicks turning his leg into light so it should be considered as LS aswell.

The only thing that shouldn't be counted as LS are his lasers and probably the Yasakani no Magatama.

@everyone

Please try to avoid quoting walls of text in order to not mess this thread.

 

[Chibi14]

His light bullets should be LS aswell if we believe the databook.

Okay Calaca^^

 

[Captain_Torch]

I was just posting certain points that member made. Personally, I'm neutral on this topic, but there's one thing that should be noticed: "CAN move at lightspeed and CAN spam lightspeed attacks" ^This implies that not his every movement/attack is necessarily LS, which also means that it isn't possible to use it for calcs, because it will be calc stacking. Still unsure about this whole topic though

 

[Chibi14]

And again the databook only give feats who we see in the manga, they don´t use unknow attacks who didn´t we see in the manga. Look at the text again, it state Kizaru spam light speed attacks and the only attack of Kizaru when he spam are:

Yasakani no Magatama (Õà½Õ░║þôèµø▓þÄë Yasakani no Magatama?, literally translated as "Comma Jewel of Eight Shaku"): Borsalino crosses his arms in front of him and uses both hands to fire a torrent of deadly light particles, causing extreme damage to whatever they hit. Borsalino can control the spread of the attack, limiting it to a single person or covering an extremely wide area. It also has great piercing properties, penetrating a thick layer of ice and then piercing deep into the water with ease. It was first used against Whitebeard but was blocked by Marco.[12]


He don´t have other attacks who spam lights in the manga and we can see the attack in the card(picture three which his state as light bullets). So this let us assume that at least light bullets travel at light speed because that is the only one attack who we get in manga and when Kizaru spam multiple lights.

Means Light bullet and Light kicks are at light speed at least.

 

[The_Calaca]

"CAN move at lightspeed and CAN spam lightspeed attacks" ^This implies that not his every movement/attack is necessarily LS, which also means that it isn't possible to use it for calcs, because it will be calc stacking. Still unsure about this whole topic though

Of course it would refer to attacks listed as such. Like when he kicked Hawkins or the YNK.

Why would it be calc stacking anyway? I don't know where's the similarity in using Kizaru's LS attacks with something like I did in Sanji's feat (which I think I need to redone because I found another timeframe).

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree with this but I believe it shouldn't scale to the other admirals cause Oda literally said that Kizaru is the fastest admiral. That means either the other admirals don't have observation haki or their haki isn't on the level of masters like Silvers and the Yonko

 

[Chibi14]

I agree with this but I believe it shouldn't scale to the other admirals cause Oda literally said that Kizaru is the fastest admiral. That means either the other admirals don't have observation haki or their haki isn't on the level of masters like Silvers and the Yonko

Kizaru beeing fastes Marine soldat doesn´t mean the other admirals can´t keep up with him. In the same databook card Oda mentioned that only character with haki can keep up with Kizaru. Which means at least their reaction and combat speed must be on same lvl as Kizaru(not movement speed).

 

[AstralKing7]

I literally said that means if he is the fastest admiral haki is being taken into consideration when some of them have haki but Kizaru is still considered the fastest

 

[The_Calaca]

He can be the fastest and the other Admirals could keep up with him. There's no inconsistency nor contradiction there.

 

[Damage3245]

Kizaru beeing fastes Marine soldat doesn´t mean the other admirals can´t keep up with him. In the same databook card Oda mentioned that only character with haki can keep up with Kizaru. Which means at least their reaction and combat speed must be on same lvl as Kizaru(not movement speed).

I think that at best their reactions would be on that level, not necessarily their combat speed.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I'd say reaction and combat speed would apply, well they wouldn't get SoL reactions and combat speed only Relativistic for both. Also using LS for Kizaru for calcs isn't calc stacking since light already has a set value. Calc stacking is the act of taking the results of one calc and applying it to anther.


Also Oda has been planning a Databook like this for the past 10 years so I doubt you can compare it to something like the Naruto Databook.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

Wow. Even with it being confirmed by the author, it still won't be accepted...

 

[TataHakai]

We've rejected things confirmed by authors before, just saying that doesn't automatically have it approved.

 

[The_Calaca]

This case has the author confirmation and many statements from the manga with lore of the character itself supporting this.

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

We've rejected things confirmed by authors before, just saying that doesn't automatically have it approved.

In this scenario, there are too many things for it to be rejected. The fact remains that there is contextual lore, the very nature of the ability, and authorial statements to back up the argument. What about any of this can even be disputed? The author created the characters and the world, so I believe he should know better than any of us what they are capable of. There are plenty of verses on this site that uses character statements to gauge power.

One Piece not only has consistently referred to Kizaru's attacks and movements as lightspeed, but the very nature of his ability has been shown to be light (further proven due to him being able to reflect himself like light). Any arguments that involve other characters reacting to and clashing with Kizaru has been addressed by the author (needs at least Proficient mastery of Observation Haki to be able to keep up). This pretty much confirms it.

Oda has been very consistent throughout One Piece and he knows his own series well. He isn't a questionable source, but the actual author of the series. If his actual statements regarding his series won't be taken seriously and is just disregarded since a few people really want to scrutinize One Piece to the best of their ability, then what can we even trust on this site?

 

[TataHakai]

We've rejected things confirmed by authors before, just saying that doesn't automatically have it approved.

One Piece not only has consistently referred to Kizaru's attacks and movements as lightspeed

There's one statement in the entire manga that says anything about LS Kizaru, not saying you're wrong about your points but i wouldn't call 1 statement where Kizaru was goading to someone consistently referring.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Sword Guy Z brings up some very valid points. OPM was actually upgraded to Relativistic because of WoG albeit its being removed now but here we have something much more believable. WoG, Databooks, in verse statements and the point of Kizaru's fruit all validate this

 

[Sword_guy_Z]

One Piece not only has consistently referred to Kizaru's attacks and movements as lightspeed

There's one statement in the entire manga that says anything about LS Kizaru, not saying you're wrong about your points but i wouldn't call 1 statement where Kizaru was goading to someone consistently referring.

Iirc he used the move that you are referring to at least twice. He said, "Have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?" to Hawkins. He later replicated the same kick while blitzing Luffy in midair while he was frozen in motion.

 

[Chibi14]

I think both reaction speed and combat speed should get upgrade, I mean only via reaction speed you can´t keep up with Kizaru LS you need good reaction combat speed to fight back,something what Rayleigh or Marco did in their battle. When Kizaru spam with his light bullets, Marco was react and start counter attack.

I would make it like how we scale Black clover character(one profil page):

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yami_Sukehiro

Speed: At least SuperHuman movement speed with FTL combat speed and reactions augmented by Ki sensing (Nonchalantly reacted to Licht's and Liar's attacks, which were explicitly described as lightspeed, far superior to Asta who can deflect Guiche's beams of reflected light)

I think movement speed shouldn´t be scale but at least combat and reaction speed should scale to Kizaru light speed attacks(my own though). And like I said we should only scale the High tiers(Commanders/Shichibukai) and Top tiers(Admirals/Yonkous).

 

[Damage3245]

Even if I agreed on scaling combat speed (which I still have reservations about) I don't think we should use this to upgrade people based on 'tiers'.

The databook specifically says that fighters requires proficient levels of Observation Haki which not everyone has even if they're really strong. For example, Jack hasn't been confirmed to have Observation Haki, let alone proficient levels of it, and he's a high-level commander in Kaido's crew.

So, I think if anything, it needs to be taken on a careful, case-by-case basis.

 

[BlackPAIN99]

@Damage3245

Jack is a high-ranking commander of the Beast Pirates why should he not have Kenbunshoku Haki? especially since Kenbunshoku and Busoushoku are very common in the New World.

Anyone who is strong and in a very high position should have these two basic Haki variants.

 

[Damage3245]

We can't scale abilities that way.

Before the databook came out, we didn't even have confirmation if Law had Observation Haki.

And we still don't have confirmation (from the manga or the databook) if Big Mom has Observation Haki even if you'd think it'd be common sense that she does.

 

[Chibi14]

You are right damage, in this case I should upgrade any top tier and some high tiers with reaction speed and combat speed.

The reason why I should scale any top tier to Kizaru, I don´t think Kizaru can beat other top tier without going all out and fight at least high/extrem high diff fight. Even Big mom show as top tier good reaction speed, she was able to block easy Kong Gun, one shot Judge and beat easily fast character as Niji and Yonji. And last chapter even Kaido was able to speedblitz Gear 4 luffy. Because that I sure top tiers should scale to Kizaru. About high tiers, I would scale good CoO user as Katakuri,Marco or Luffy. I know we would need some time to find place some high tier for the speed feat but because that I open this thread to collaboration together.

 

[Damage3245]

> You are right damage, in this case I should upgrade any top tier and some high tiers with reaction speed and combat speed.

I'm pretty sure that's not what I said...

The best thing to do would be wait till the majority of the databook is released because it can confirm who has what types of Haki.

 

[Chibi14]

I don´t agree, the databook only states something who was showed in manga, which means even in Dragons card we didn´t get any info if he has haki or not. Same goes for BenBeckman and Shanks pirates, Im sure every one of them has haki but it wasn´t state in the databook. In this case it wouldn´t make any sense to wait until the databook ends, the databook only give info(feats wise like if someone has haki or not) about ability who we see in the manga. Because that I shouldn´t wait and already state to speak for the current info about Kizaru.

 

[Damage3245]

No, the databook also reveals information that was never in the manga before.

For example, Law having Observation Haki.

And the databook did confirm that Shanks has mastered all three types of Haki.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I actually do agree with Damage on that part. We should wait until we at least get confirmation before upgrading characters with this, we still don't know if the other Yonko have Kenbunshoku Haki and Kuzan doesn't have an entry yet.

 

[Chibi14]

No, the databook also reveals information that was never in the manga before.
For example, Law having Observation Haki.

And the databook did confirm that Shanks has mastered all three types of Haki.

Yes but in Shanks case Oda state this in one other databook before and about Law it was clear that he was using Observation haki. Or can you say me why Dragon,BenBeckman,Magellan,Shiryuu,Blackbeard and tons of other character hasn´t haki state on their databook? Only character who seems to have it(show in manga) get haki state in the databook. Because that it doesn´t make sense to wait until the databook end if we already see some top tiers who wasn´t state to have haki(in databook). Like I said we get only feats who we get in the manga or in other databook.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Shiryu has one but he doesn't have Haki. Dragon also wasn't given information for obvious reasons.

 

[Chibi14]

Shiryu has one but he doesn't have Haki. Dragon also wasn't given information for obvious reasons.

Like I said, guys who should have haki(BenBeckman and other character) didn´t get any info about their haki, the databook only confirm with panels which we see in the manga. Right now in NF(OBD) they speak about this info aswell and someone make a list if we would scale:

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/kizaru-lightspeed-and-you-edition-878171.1151725/

Kaidou
Big Mom
Whitebeard
Post Skip Blackbeard (Not pre even with Gura)
Shanks
Mihawk (Shanks was a Yonkou while Mihawk and him were still rivals)
Akainu
Aokiji
Fujitora
Ryogyoku
Prime Sengoku
Prime Garp
Prime Shiki


Maybe:
Drago
Shiryuu
Im-Sama
5 Gorosei
Captain of the Rox pirate
Kong Maybe(Come from me): Marco,Luffy and Katakuri


Happy that we aren´t the only who who talk about it, hope it get accept here and in NF.

 

[The_Calaca]

Actually I agree with Damage on this one. Once the Databook ends we should wait before making any upgrades.

I don't remember other instance where Shanks and Law were confirmed as Observation Haki users before the VCD so I'm not sure about your statement.

And I agree with your suggestion about adding the Relativistic combat and reaction speed to proficient Observation users.

Now the list you used from NF:

Kaidou: No, Kaido blitzed an enraged Luffy so his Observation shouldn't been working at that moment meaning that Kaido doesn't need to go Relativistic to blitz him. He likely has good CoO (like when he saw Luffy's attacks before they landed) but right now we can't grant him since he didn't fight a concentrated Luffy.
Big Mom: We could possibly scale her to Katakuri but I don't think so. Bege said that Katakuri was the most troublesome given the monstruos CoO with Future Sight. Even Katakuri knew Luffy was aiming for Mother Carmel photo when Linlin didn't. Also she clased with Pre-Katakuri Luffy and I don't know if that level of proficiency is good enough to grant the rating.
Whitebeard: This seems good. He's a confirmed user and matched with Kizaru for a short time.
Post Skip Blackbeard (Not pre even with Gura): We don't even know if BB uses Haki. We know he can sense it on Luffy but that's not a high level of proficiency.
Shanks: Agree with Shanks. He has mastered the three types.
Mihawk (Shanks was a Yonkou while Mihawk and him were still rivals): Agree.
Akainu: Can't say. It's too soon.
Aokiji: The same as Akainu.
Fujitora: We know Fujitora has CoO for sure (he's blind so...) but not the proficiency level.
Ryogyoku: Featless character.
Prime Sengoku: The prime characters should have it but sadly it's not enough.
Prime Garp: Same. No feats nor statements or context we can't give this to them.
Prime Shiki: Same.

Maybe:
Dragon: Featless character.
Shiryuu: Probably but he's even more featless than BB.
Im-Sama: Epic featless. We don't even know if Im fights.
5 Gorosei: Featless.
Captain of the Rox pirate: We don't know that guy yet.
Kong Maybe(Come from me): Featless. Marco: Yeah, he kept up with Kizaru for a short time. He should have it. Luffy: I think this level of proficiency is more than enough to grant it. Katakuri: The same as Luffy.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Actually, there were two instances in the manga that showed Law had Observation Haki. In the Dressrosa Arc, when Robin sends a partial clone of herself to deliver a message to Law, he knows it's a clone right away as he asks Clone Robin where her real body was. In the Zou Arc, Law sensed Carrot's presence in the forest just like Zoro.

 

[The_Calaca]

Then we shouldn't wait till the Databook ends to add Law's Observation since it's something coming from the manga.

Do you have scans?

 

[Damage3245]

Actually, there were two instances in the manga that showed Law had Observation Haki. In the Dressrosa Arc, when Robin sends a partial clone of herself to deliver a message to Law, he knows it's a clone right away as he asks Clone Robin where her real body was. In the Zou Arc, Law sensed Carrot's presence in the forest just like Zoro.

It's pretty easy to tell that she was a clone... She was tiny, and half-emerging from the ground.

As for the latter feat, that's a good supporting notion for him having Observation Haki but it isn't absolute proof by itself.

With the databook confirmation though, it is solid.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Law asking Clone Robin where her main body was http://*****************/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-712-page-19.html

Law and Zoro sensing Carrot http://*****************/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-804-page-14.html