Speed upgrade for Kizaru and High/Top tiers of One piece??

[Chibi14]

First of all I post first the profil page of Kizaru(Speed wise):

Speed: Massively Hypersonic Combat and Reaction speeds (Comparable to the other Admirals), Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light. Traveled dozens of meters to tag a mid-Soru Gear 2nd Luffy while the latter appeared to be frozen. Speed-blitzed 3 Supernova who were dozens of meters apart from eachother before any could react to what had happened. Does not currently apply to Kizaru's laser beams), Speed of Light travel when using Yata no Kagami technique.

So it state that Kizaru can move at speed of light only via using Yata no Kagami, his combat and reaction speed are only Massively Hypersonic. Now in the last week the new datebook come out and we get some new infos about Kizaru:

The translation for Kizaru card:

"Kizaru:

Always carries out his duties in an aloof manner
He who manipulates light, the marines fastest and third admiral!!

A light man who consumed the pika pika no mi - Light fruit
Kizaru can turn his body to light and can spam attacks at light speed.
Although Kizaru boasts overwhelming speed he speaks at a very comfortable/steady tone.
After observing Sakazuki's "ruthless and thorough justice" and that which opposes it Kuzan's "extremely laid-back/lazy justice", he came up with his own "Not gonna use either justice" which gives him the most freedom and comfort. He adheres to instructions and carry's out justice at his own pace.

He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards. It's very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once.

His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it's impossible to grasp even a single of his movements without being a proficient Haki user."

So first of all, he not only travel at speed of light but he can even spam attacks at light speed. Which means his light bullets are most like at speed of light(every attack of him). Only user who can use Haki( Kenbunshoku Haki (Color of Observation) ) can keep up with his movement and combat speed. This is a huge speed upgrade for the entire One piece verse(At least High and Top tiers). Kizaru profil about speed must change into both movement and combat speed. And for everyone other(as Marco/Rayleigh) the speed at least must change into Relativistic + Reaction speed at speed of light.

This is a very clear and good info who we get from the databooks but in the past we have many discussion about Kizaru attacks beeing not in LS but now this change and we can scale most of One piece(high and top tiers) to Relativistic speed.

 

[Antvasima]

You can use the Knowledgeable Members List to find people to ask to comment here.

 

[Chibi14]

You can use the Knowledgeable Members List to find people to ask to comment here.

Thank you, I ask three members^^

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Chibi14]

Okay. No problem.

Would love if I can hear you though about this new speed info who we get from databook, Antvasima^^

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry, but no. I do not have an opinion, or the time and energy to get invested in this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm pretty sure this isn't what Kizaru actually does. Yes he can move at Lightspeed when he converts to light, but not in any other form. That quote doesn't say he's lightspeed in general.

 

[Chibi14]

I'm pretty sure this isn't what Kizaru actually does. Yes he can move at Lightspeed when he converts to light, but not in any other form. That quote doesn't say he's lightspeed in general.

But the quote didn´t only say move but add attack at speed of light aswell.

" Kizaru can turn his body to light and can spam attacks at light speed. "

The datebooks are done by Oda himself who look at the cards and give infos about each character.

About the light speed movement everyone know this already but the cards add attacks at light speed.

Kizaru already state he can kick at speed of light, now this info add more things. At least Kizaru attacks must change to light speed duo the new infos.

 

[Damage3245]

There was an agreement in the general One Piece discussion thread to put threads relating to the databook on hold until the databook was completed.

 

[Chibi14]

There was an agreement in the general One Piece discussion thread to put threads relating to the databook on hold until the databook was completed.

Well the card for Kizaru is already out, we don´t need to wait for the infos about Kizaru. I though one own thread about this hug info should be clear out something.

 

[Damage3245]

It does not state that all of Kizaru's attacks are lightspeed, just that he is capable of launching attacks at the speed of light which does not seem unreasonable.

Some cases are pretty clear in the manga that not every one of his attacks travel at the speed of light (I'll get into that in more detail later on).

As for Rayleigh's feat, there were issues behind the assumptions of that calc which I covered a long time ago. In fact, if the only reason Rayleigh kept up with him is because of his Observation Haki then that weakens the feat even further because Haki grants mild precognition which could let Rayleigh take action before Kizaru even started moving.

In conclusion, I would be fine with some modifications to Kizaru's speed description but we should examine all feats on a case-by-case basis instead of just rapidly upgrading characters.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with Damage3245

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

There was an agreement in the general One Piece discussion thread to put threads relating to the databook on hold until the databook was completed.

This. Let's wait for the Databook to end before starting on revisions regarding Kizaru.

 

[The_Calaca]

While I think we should wait and judge the case carefully I want to point out this from Damage's post:

" if the only reason Rayleigh kept up with him is because of his Observation Haki then that weakens the feat even further because Haki grants mild precognition which could let Rayleigh take action before Kizaru even started moving"

Actually we give speed's ratings to characters who can move that fast via precognition. Just look at Spider-Man's profile. This is listed on it:

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions (Destroyed a stone slab in a microsecond. Dodged Electro's lightning. Shouldn't be overwhelmingly slower than Silk). Supersonic travel speed (At least Mach 1.88). With precognition/spider-sense included his reactions are comparable to Relativistic (However, the precognition only helps in situations in which another character's attack speed is much greater than his or her combat speed, or in situations in which an character's combat speed is only slightly greater than Spider-Man's own)

So the precognition's argument doesn't debunk the fact that some characters could move at comparable speeds. It's actually a good argument for a speed upgrade in the future once the DB ends.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm in agreement with you and Rin about saving this for a future discussion, so I'll save my response to that for later on if that's okay.

 

[Chibi14]

Argg I posted something but it fail and didn´t show up here, so I try to explain it again:

The attacks only based of the feats who we see in the manga, which means they didn´t mean unknow attack but know attack who we see in the manga. I already have the databook card of Kizaru, here:

[[1]]

Let me explain each picture:

"1(which Kizaru using sword)Japanese mythological theodicy: It seems the origin of the name of the technique that Kizaru uses (Õñ®ÕÅóÚø▓Õëú - something sword..lolz..I'm shit at translating technique names) is from the so called three treasures that the the god that governs the sun "goddess amaterasu" bestowed. 2(which Marco kicks Kizaru):His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it's impossible to grasp even a single of his movements without being a proficient Haki user. 3(which he spam light speed bullets):He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards. It's very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once. " When the databook state that Kizaru spam with light speed attack, it based on bullets and beams because in the manga Kizaru didn´t spam with something other attacks. I don´t know why we shouldn´t accept that this one, I mean the manga himself with Kizaru ask Basil if he ever kicked at the speed of light clear this out. Only haki user(most like High/Top tiers) can keep up which Kizaru speed.

 

[BlackPAIN99]

Now so Oda has confirmed that Kizaru attacks and moves at the speed of light and his opponents can only fight with very strong Kenbunshoku Haki against it this is probably true for some high and probably for pretty much every top tier in One Piece but what a miracle it was rejected.

So even the mangaka himself can't get his verses upgraded? And that although there are already feats in the verse alone which would make it actually much faster than it is at the moment and be it only MHS+.

Well, I don't know what to think, whether to laugh or cry.

 

[The_Calaca]

Because Word of God doesn't matter when it comes to One Piece.

I'm sorry if I sound salty and someone gets angry/annoyed but this got me real mad right now. It's just looks that they're always people picking with pliers every single thing regarding One Piece's feats just for the sake of a downgrade even if it comes from the bloody author.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Nah I agree fully. I personally think Relativistic should have never been removed and only scaled to the God Tiers of the verse. Which you can't really argue as an outlier since it's done by God tiers and they haven't showed speed feats other than that. This would easily explain how Kaido blitzed Luffy in Gear Forth.

 

[Ryuga21]

Kizaru turns his leg into light and kicks at the same speed, this is made very clear in the manga, he can actually attack at that speed.

 

[Chibi14]

Nah I agree fully. I personally think Relativistic should have never been removed and only scaled to the God Tiers of the verse. Which you can't really argue as an outlier since it's done by God tiers and they haven't showed speed feats other than that. This would easily explain how Kaido blitzed Luffy in Gear Forth.

Yes I agree they should never removed the Relativistic speed for the High/Top tiers. Relativistic movements speed and LS combat/reaction speed for at least the top tiers.If the Light speed kick of Kizaru get accept, can we calc the ke for that?

 

[The_Calaca]

We could calc it. I remember a Man from Shadows's calc that did it but I don't remember the result.

 

[Chibi14]

We could calc it. I remember a Man from Shadows's calc that did it but I don't remember the result.

Can you post pls the calc from Shadows?

Still waiting for the other members but I don´t see any reason to don´t accept the feats/infos from both manga/databook. Looking how Black clover was accept because of states or other mangas, we even get the answer that only haki use can keep up with Kizaru speed and most like only the high and top tiers of One piece.

 

[TataHakai]

Nah I agree fully. I personally think Relativistic should have never been removed and only scaled to the God Tiers of the verse. Which you can't really argue as an outlier since it's done by God tiers and they haven't showed speed feats other than that. This would easily explain how Kaido blitzed Luffy in Gear Forth.

Yes I agree they should never removed the Relativistic speed for the High/Top tiers. Relativistic movements speed and LS combat/reaction speed for at least the top tiers.If the Light speed kick of Kizaru get accept, can we calc the ke for that?

You can't calc KE for LS movement.

 

[The_Calaca]

Here it is

Right now we should have this thread in stand by until the Databook ends. I think this is pretty straight forward and any argument against it would come from people arguing against the author himself so it should be accepted but that's me.

Edit: Tata is right.

 

[PaChi2]

I want relativistic Haku if this goes through

 

[Chibi14]

I want relativistic Haku if this goes through

Was Haku speed state in both manga and databook?

,@Calaca

Link doesn´t work

 

[The_Calaca]

All of us wants it, PaChi. All of us.

BTW I read the Kinetic Energy Feats page and it says that KE shouldn't be used with FTL objects. Is it the same for SoL objects then?

 

[TataHakai]

If we accept Kizaru's attacks as LS it's going to cause a TON of scaling problems, that's all i'll really say regarding this.

 

[TataHakai]

All of us wants it, PaChi. All of us.
BTW I read the Kinetic Energy Feats page and it says that KE shouldn't be used with FTL objects. Is it the same for SoL objects then?

Anything above 0.92c if i remember correctly, as the RKE Calculator starts to bug out after that and acts weird.

 

[The_Calaca]

Why tho?

 

[TataHakai]

I want relativistic Haku if this goes through

Was Haku speed state in both manga and databook?
,@Calaca

Link doesn´t work

It was stated he travels through reflections (a.k.a light) in the manga, databook said he was LS twice in 1 sentence and anime also said he was LS in the english dub.

 

[Chibi14]

If we accept Kizaru's attacks as LS it's going to cause a TON of scaling problems, that's all i'll really say regarding this.

But in Black clover it wasn´t a problem to scal multiple character to FTL combat and reaction speed(I mean even Noelle has FTL speed) and then it was the same reason why BB get a upgrade, Licht attacks move at light speed(get accept here). So if you guys hasn´t any problem to upgrade Black clover character to FTL combat and reaction speed, why we can´t accept One piece with Kizaru Lightspeed who was now state in BOTH manga and databook? Which problem would we get? We only should upgrade high tiers(Commanders/Strongest Shichibukai/Yonkous/Admirals).

 

[Jobbo]

The reason highly relativistic KE isn't allowed is because the result is many times greater than normal KE, infinitely greater at SoL. It isn't a bug, that's just how the universe works.

 

[The_Calaca]

I think it's the same case with Foxy. He uses photons and they reflects but just like Haku it would lead to a ton of scaling problems.

@TataHakai TBF that's not the case with Kizaru. He's one of the strongest characters in the whole series so it wouldn't be a problem as you said.

 

[Captain_Torch]

The biggest difference betwen Black Clover and OP is that light in black clover acts like actualy light, while Kizaru's light explodes, which is not how real light acts.

 

[TataHakai]

Because FTL is a constant in black clover, we have a lot of statements to scale characters from and it's not only a top tier that is supposed to be that fast

If Kizaru's attacks are LS and we get an FTL feat from those attacks from someone who isn't supposed to be able to defeat Kizaru then it'd make no sense scaling wise.

Just saying even if the statement is fine it may lead to scaling problems, it MAY.

 

[The_Calaca]

That's for his lasers.

 

[Chibi14]

I want relativistic Haku if this goes through

Was Haku speed state in both manga and databook?
,@Calaca

Link doesn´t work

It was stated he travels through reflections (a.k.a light) in the manga, databook said he was LS twice in 1 sentence and anime also said he was LS in the english dub.

Didn´t this calc was debunk because of the states we get later in Naruto? If I remember right the Ninja alliance use LS teleport weapon(Raikage and Tsunade) and only the third Raikage move which this speed because of his tough body, something who the fouth Raikage can´t do and need help from Tsunade. I don´t have anything against Naruto speed upgrade, didn´t even Madara use later in manga light speed attack?

Like I said Black clover character(Noelle/Asta) have FTL Combat and Reaction speed because of the same reason as Kizaru light speed was cleary state now in both manga and databook.

 

[Captain_Torch]

There is the same discussion on NF about this subject, and I'll just quote a certain person:

"

basically Kizaru's light's first problem is because of its portrayal.

1. it can be stationary -> so it isn't always lightspeed.

2. it can move at a very slow pace -> so again it isn't always lightspeed. We have seen this when he connected his upper and lower body.

3. Brook have seen kizaru's light before Kizaru could translocate from one location to another -> which basically points that Kizaru is far more slower than his own light.

4. Rayleigh literally stopped kizaru after his light has traveled but before kizaru got sent to that intended location, which proves point 3.

5. and more of the same shit that again will still affect the input of the databook.

basically Kizaru himself before he becomes light due to his traveling ability is slower than lightspeed.

Hence he is only lightspeed when traveling through the mirror.

"