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and Shulk has more Causality Manipulation knowledge than Young Sougo here. he show only during Zi-O II debut but other event afer that, why he doesn't use it? Seem like Shulk get the advantage in this match.
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Sougo Tokiwa (Main Timeline) VS Shulk
- Thread starter Nicetoderp
- Start date
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I believe the reason why Sougo stoped using his time chainging ability is due to how Tsukuyomi reacted to him using: which was fear due to reminding her of Oma Zio's ability. I believe Sougo took notice of it which is why he stopped so he can deviate himself to become the evil future ruler of time/space. Or its just the writers realising they drove themselve into a corner by introducing a strong ability not even half way thorugh the show and try to forget it exist until like the near end of the show. Also, regarding the AP thingy, can Sougo increase his Ap by using Genm's lvl Billion's ability to increase his stats?
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@Kaijinoodles.EXE
In this fight, Sougo use 2-B hax not 2-B physically, Genm's lvl Billion's Ap amp doesn't work here or if he can, increase 4-B physically to 2-B physically?
In this fight, Sougo use 2-B hax not 2-B physically, Genm's lvl Billion's Ap amp doesn't work here or if he can, increase 4-B physically to 2-B physically?
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AP doesn't matter, Sougo doesn't have Acausality so Alvis can easily meddle with his past before he gained 2-B powers and thus prevent him from gaining the powers and resistances of even Zi-O II and then incap him.
Also NLF because Genm's power amp never showed anything close to increase a countless 2-B's ap.
Also NLF because Genm's power amp never showed anything close to increase a countless 2-B's ap.
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Ah, I see. Might go for Shulk for now due to Alvis shenanigans. Might change my vote depending if there're any convincing rebutals for Sougo introduce later on.
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"AP doesn't matter, Sougo doesn't have Acausality so Alvis can easily meddle with his past before he gained 2-B powers and thus prevent him from gaining the powers and resistances of even Zi-O II and then incap him."
Yeahh, no.
First of all, one of Oma Zi-O's powers is to literally destroy and recreate Space-Times so he can and will undo Alvis' meddling.
Second of all, it doesn't work like that. The first and last time Oma Zi-O was retconned was when he willingly allowed his younger self to do so. When Another Zi-O II changed the timeline by erasing and making it so Sougo would never be Oma Zi-O (Because he would've died), Oma Zi-O in the future was unaffected but was more worried that his entire world would be erased and paradoxes.
As for "No resistance against Precognition", no he blatantly does. Another Zi-O II has precognition and tried to use it on the Weaker GrandZi-O and he saw that GrandZi-O died against him, which only resulted in Another Zi-O II getting smacked in the face because Precognition simply doesn't work on Sougo anymore.
And AGAIN, it's not even like Time Paradoxing will keep Sougo down WHATSOEVER. Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them- and there is flat out a Singularity Point (Acausal Type 1) that remembers Sougo. It's a plot point in the Build/Zi-O Crossover movie that the villain is retroactively trying to make Kamen Rider never exist but that damn one kid is keeping literally everyone's existence... existing.
Furthermore, the creation of an Another Rider is literally Time Paradoxing your powers away. If an Another Rider exists, you will effectively have never been a Kamen Rider since your history as a Rider went over to another person. Great example is the moment when Another Ghost was defeated, the actual Ghost literal right that moment got his memories and powers back because his history literally returned.
And yet here we are, with Zi-O fighting Another Zi-O completely fine.
Yeahh, no.
First of all, one of Oma Zi-O's powers is to literally destroy and recreate Space-Times so he can and will undo Alvis' meddling.
Second of all, it doesn't work like that. The first and last time Oma Zi-O was retconned was when he willingly allowed his younger self to do so. When Another Zi-O II changed the timeline by erasing and making it so Sougo would never be Oma Zi-O (Because he would've died), Oma Zi-O in the future was unaffected but was more worried that his entire world would be erased and paradoxes.
As for "No resistance against Precognition", no he blatantly does. Another Zi-O II has precognition and tried to use it on the Weaker GrandZi-O and he saw that GrandZi-O died against him, which only resulted in Another Zi-O II getting smacked in the face because Precognition simply doesn't work on Sougo anymore.
And AGAIN, it's not even like Time Paradoxing will keep Sougo down WHATSOEVER. Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them- and there is flat out a Singularity Point (Acausal Type 1) that remembers Sougo. It's a plot point in the Build/Zi-O Crossover movie that the villain is retroactively trying to make Kamen Rider never exist but that damn one kid is keeping literally everyone's existence... existing.
Furthermore, the creation of an Another Rider is literally Time Paradoxing your powers away. If an Another Rider exists, you will effectively have never been a Kamen Rider since your history as a Rider went over to another person. Great example is the moment when Another Ghost was defeated, the actual Ghost literal right that moment got his memories and powers back because his history literally returned.
And yet here we are, with Zi-O fighting Another Zi-O completely fine.
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O, yeah. Forgot about this. Shulk FRA
Also lil' note for Akrei, lotta what ya mentioned isn't on Sougo's profile nor does a lot of it even matter due to Alvis being much too big for Sougo to fully effect nor can he prevent an incap from happening due to Shulk's superior hax potency e.g Precog along with Sougo starting the fight with no knowledge of Alvis with no means of learning about him as even characters with multiversal wide Cosmic Awareness could not find him. Gonna go for a bit, have a good day y'all.
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Ok, so he does have some precog resistance. His resistance to precog is still FAR weaker then Shulk's level of precog. Seeing one future doesn't compare to seeing "All Possible Futures" on a Higher-Dimensional Scale that works on Acasuality (Type 2). He's not resisting Shulk's Precog until something better is presented.
"Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them." You completely ignored the point brought up, Shulk's EE can bypass resistances and it erases you from history, as well as the memories of your existence from everyone. So it's not really going to matter against EE that potent. Unless he has High-Godly regen he's not coming back from it.
Plus he doesn't even know about Alvis' Higher Dimensional Omnipresent Existence on top of that.
Until better arguments are presented, I'm Voting Shulk FRA
"Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them." You completely ignored the point brought up, Shulk's EE can bypass resistances and it erases you from history, as well as the memories of your existence from everyone. So it's not really going to matter against EE that potent. Unless he has High-Godly regen he's not coming back from it.
Plus he doesn't even know about Alvis' Higher Dimensional Omnipresent Existence on top of that.
Until better arguments are presented, I'm Voting Shulk FRA
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"You cannot undo something if you're already dead, you completely ignored the points for Shulk brought up earlier"
Tell this to Another Zi-O II or the numerous resurrection abilities of Riders across the entire Kamen Rider Franchise.
"Ok so he does have some Precog Resistance."
SOME? Sougo outright laughed at the previously absolute Precognition, what is "Some" in there?
"His resistance to Precog is still FAR weaker then Shulk's Precog. Seeing one future doesn't compare to seeing "All Possible Futures" on a Higher-Dimensional Scale that works on Acasuality (Type 2). He's not resisting Shulk's Precog, end of story."
First of all, seeing a bunch of possible futures is NOT more potent than seeing the absolute, "This is how it will be 100%" Future. You're literally saying "A bunch of POSSIBILITIES is more potent than the absolute, actual future that WILL happen". Second of all, If an Acausal Type 2 can be seen in the future then they are NOT Acausal Type 2. Literally the entire point of being Acausal Type 2 is that you exist only in the now, and ONLY in the now.
There may need to be a CRT because that BS shouldn't stand. If you exist in the future, then you already broke the prerequisite to be Acausal Type 2.
""Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them." You completely ignored the point brought up, Shulk's EE can bypass resistances and it erases you from history, as well as the memories of your existence from everyone. So it's not really going to matter against EE that potent. Unless he has High-Godly regen he's not coming back from it."
And you ignored MY point. Erasure from memory is literally how Time Paradoxing WORKS in Kamen Rider- in Den-O, Zeronos' existence was erased from history due to using too many of his Zeronos Cards -Literally all evidence of his existence was gone- and everyone forgot who the hell Zeronos was except for Den-O himself and Owner, both of whom are Singularity Points.
So no, your EE is NOT bypassing Sougo because literally the exact thing you described has already occurred in Kamen Rider and it flat out does not affect Singularity Points.
"You keep forgetting about Alvis' 4-D Omnipresence, which means you are Omnipresent throughout the Past, Present and Future. "
How in the world does that prevent Plot Manipulation?
"You can't harm me". "You are vulnerable to me". Or one that has been demonstrated to be a thing that can be done, "You got hurt".
"Also lil' note for Akrei, lotta what ya mentioned isn't on Sougo's profile nor does a lot of it even matter due to Alvis being much too big for Sougo to fully effect nor can he prevent an incap from happening due to Shulk's superior hax potency e.g Precog along with Sougo starting the fight with no knowledge of Alvis with no means of learning about him as even characters with multiversal wide Cosmic Awareness could not find him. Gonna go for a bit, have a good day y'all"
I don't like how you blatantly ignored how the first half of this thread amounts to "Sougo's page isn't actually what's just on there and extends across every Rider Profile". As for "Too big for Sougo to effect", that's absolute BS because last I checked, the plot of a story doesn't have a range. It's simply the plot. Lastly I remained ENTIRELY unconvinced about the present shakey "Precognition Potency" argument which doesn't even work as the bypassed Acausality means that the original character in question broke the requirement to be that Acausal in the first place.
Also "Characters with Multiversal Wide Cosmic Awareness could not find him" is of literally no importance here. Sougo knows he's in a battle and SOMEONE is trying to erase his past- that's incentive to use Plot Manipulation or outright Space-Time Destruction and Recreation of his own past if I've ever seen one.
Tell this to Another Zi-O II or the numerous resurrection abilities of Riders across the entire Kamen Rider Franchise.
"Ok so he does have some Precog Resistance."
SOME? Sougo outright laughed at the previously absolute Precognition, what is "Some" in there?
"His resistance to Precog is still FAR weaker then Shulk's Precog. Seeing one future doesn't compare to seeing "All Possible Futures" on a Higher-Dimensional Scale that works on Acasuality (Type 2). He's not resisting Shulk's Precog, end of story."
First of all, seeing a bunch of possible futures is NOT more potent than seeing the absolute, "This is how it will be 100%" Future. You're literally saying "A bunch of POSSIBILITIES is more potent than the absolute, actual future that WILL happen". Second of all, If an Acausal Type 2 can be seen in the future then they are NOT Acausal Type 2. Literally the entire point of being Acausal Type 2 is that you exist only in the now, and ONLY in the now.
There may need to be a CRT because that BS shouldn't stand. If you exist in the future, then you already broke the prerequisite to be Acausal Type 2.
""Kamen Riders will always exist as long as someone remembers them." You completely ignored the point brought up, Shulk's EE can bypass resistances and it erases you from history, as well as the memories of your existence from everyone. So it's not really going to matter against EE that potent. Unless he has High-Godly regen he's not coming back from it."
And you ignored MY point. Erasure from memory is literally how Time Paradoxing WORKS in Kamen Rider- in Den-O, Zeronos' existence was erased from history due to using too many of his Zeronos Cards -Literally all evidence of his existence was gone- and everyone forgot who the hell Zeronos was except for Den-O himself and Owner, both of whom are Singularity Points.
So no, your EE is NOT bypassing Sougo because literally the exact thing you described has already occurred in Kamen Rider and it flat out does not affect Singularity Points.
"You keep forgetting about Alvis' 4-D Omnipresence, which means you are Omnipresent throughout the Past, Present and Future. "
How in the world does that prevent Plot Manipulation?
"You can't harm me". "You are vulnerable to me". Or one that has been demonstrated to be a thing that can be done, "You got hurt".
"
I don't like how you blatantly ignored how the first half of this thread amounts to "Sougo's page isn't actually what's just on there and extends across every Rider Profile". As for "Too big for Sougo to effect", that's absolute BS because last I checked, the plot of a story doesn't have a range. It's simply the plot. Lastly I remained ENTIRELY unconvinced about the present shakey "Precognition Potency" argument which doesn't even work as the bypassed Acausality means that the original character in question broke the requirement to be that Acausal in the first place.
Also "Characters with Multiversal Wide Cosmic Awareness could not find him" is of literally no importance here. Sougo knows he's in a battle and SOMEONE is trying to erase his past- that's incentive to use Plot Manipulation or outright Space-Time Destruction and Recreation of his own past if I've ever seen one.
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@Akreious
Regen or resurrection doesn't matter if the EE negs past it, and you also haven't provided any examples of what they can regenerate from either.
Yeah, but in this case, the outcome of a future is always subject to change based on one's decision, so it's basically like seeing a bunch of actual futures that could happen depending on what Shulk actually does. There's also the fact that Alvis' own precog is still higher-dimensional, meaning that he can precog above that level too. The point is that the types of precog being resisted are completely different.
As for bypassing acausality type 2, stuff like that happens all the time, that just probably means that the ability itself is being circumvented, that's kinda the meaning of the word "bypassed".
Seems you forgot the part about being erased from history too.
4-D omnipresence doesn't prevent plot manipulation, but it does allow him to be brought to a time where Sougo didn't have that ability, I'll eat my words about this if any of the other profiles that Sougo has the abilities of have any acausality though.
And yes, that would definitely mean a lot if he doesn't even know where Alvis' true form is, along with the fact that he probably doesn't know that Alvis has a true form either.
Regen or resurrection doesn't matter if the EE negs past it, and you also haven't provided any examples of what they can regenerate from either.
Yeah, but in this case, the outcome of a future is always subject to change based on one's decision, so it's basically like seeing a bunch of actual futures that could happen depending on what Shulk actually does. There's also the fact that Alvis' own precog is still higher-dimensional, meaning that he can precog above that level too. The point is that the types of precog being resisted are completely different.
As for bypassing acausality type 2, stuff like that happens all the time, that just probably means that the ability itself is being circumvented, that's kinda the meaning of the word "bypassed".
Seems you forgot the part about being erased from history too.
4-D omnipresence doesn't prevent plot manipulation, but it does allow him to be brought to a time where Sougo didn't have that ability, I'll eat my words about this if any of the other profiles that Sougo has the abilities of have any acausality though.
And yes, that would definitely mean a lot if he doesn't even know where Alvis' true form is, along with the fact that he probably doesn't know that Alvis has a true form either.
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@Florida the example of their Regenerationn is when Tid erased the kamen riders from history, all people in kamen rider verse forgot who and what are kamen riders. But then thank to the kamen riders fans in the "real world" still remember who they are, the kamen rider regenerates back into existence.
Tho, i dont know if this feat is good enough to regenerate against Shulk's EE.
Tho, i dont know if this feat is good enough to regenerate against Shulk's EE.
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In that specific case, their regen is reliant on the fans from the real world, which doesn't exactly come from the Kamen Riders themselves, but thanks regardless for elaborating on that.
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Ok so let recap what sougo has for this battle :
so he has All kamen rider abillity so i'm going to tell some of most powerfull
1.Genm has power bestowal(Can create any game and grant himself new powers with his thoughts),Genm can use any machanic or power from those game that he created and then he Can reprogram anything that came into contact with his body. Have total control over his Game Area where he can control time, space, physics, concept, laws and etc,
2.Ex-Aid has invulnerability(Immune to all attacks and negative status effects),basiclly star from mario,then he has plot manipulation(Due to Mighty Novel X is a story of Emu's life, Novel Gamer has the ability to overwrite reality with his speech such as, "Your attack won't hit me", "Eat my attack" and "I feel pai"),simplest term is that the entire universe or in sougo case entire multiverse became a visual novel that he can change plot like a writer.
(also if i remember corectly this two only became low 2-C because of their range and not because of quality of their haxx)
3.OOO has Conceptual Manipulation (Ankh has displayed the power to take out an "Imagin" Core Medal from Momotaros, despite he is certainly not a Greeed; implying that all forms of life have Core Medals to break. The Core Medals themselves are forms of artificial life and manifestations of desire, the Purple Core Medals are antithesis and can easily shatter the former Core Medals),any conecept can be a core medal like the example on the top about the concept like a races and it also don't need to be a form of life it's also can be a concept like an orginazation like SHOCKER with the existence of the SHOCKER core medal
so he has All kamen rider abillity so i'm going to tell some of most powerfull
1.Genm has power bestowal(Can create any game and grant himself new powers with his thoughts),Genm can use any machanic or power from those game that he created and then he Can reprogram anything that came into contact with his body. Have total control over his Game Area where he can control time, space, physics, concept, laws and etc,
2.Ex-Aid has invulnerability(Immune to all attacks and negative status effects),basiclly star from mario,then he has plot manipulation(Due to Mighty Novel X is a story of Emu's life, Novel Gamer has the ability to overwrite reality with his speech such as, "Your attack won't hit me", "Eat my attack" and "I feel pai"),simplest term is that the entire universe or in sougo case entire multiverse became a visual novel that he can change plot like a writer.
(also if i remember corectly this two only became low 2-C because of their range and not because of quality of their haxx)
3.OOO has Conceptual Manipulation (Ankh has displayed the power to take out an "Imagin" Core Medal from Momotaros, despite he is certainly not a Greeed; implying that all forms of life have Core Medals to break. The Core Medals themselves are forms of artificial life and manifestations of desire, the Purple Core Medals are antithesis and can easily shatter the former Core Medals),any conecept can be a core medal like the example on the top about the concept like a races and it also don't need to be a form of life it's also can be a concept like an orginazation like SHOCKER with the existence of the SHOCKER core medal
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@Florida
For the acausality part. Would type 1 work ? Sougo has Ryotarou's power as the singularity point, so that when the timeline is changed in the movie, he and Ryotaro is one of few Kamen Riders dont get affected by the paradoxes. Not sure if it's good enough to fight against Shulk's casaulity haxes tho.
For the acausality part. Would type 1 work ? Sougo has Ryotarou's power as the singularity point, so that when the timeline is changed in the movie, he and Ryotaro is one of few Kamen Riders dont get affected by the paradoxes. Not sure if it's good enough to fight against Shulk's casaulity haxes tho.
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Yeah type 1 would be enough to prevent Alvis from affecting Sougou's past, but causality manipulation is a completely different story here.
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causality manipulation make completely different story here?
seem like Sougo was made that one but just little in his Zi-O II debut, and already completely reset his timeline, make they go to new story while he was in Oma Zi-O, I think both causality manipulation is not different here.
seem like Sougo was made that one but just little in his Zi-O II debut, and already completely reset his timeline, make they go to new story while he was in Oma Zi-O, I think both causality manipulation is not different here.
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I just meant that having acausality type 1 wouldn't help against causality manipulation the same way that it helps against time paradoxes, they're very different abilities.
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Well on his profile he doesn't even have Acausality 1.
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Bumping????
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