Sora vs. Joker

[Dr._whiteee]

You're going to have to display it being used as such. Sora casts it once per battle and it should extend to partners if they even have it. You are claiming he can legit just revive himself over and over again with casualness, and I'm asking for you to prove this capability.

You can't use auto life to negate doom counter.

Yes it is. I already explained how your hypercritical appeal to "everyone in the room" doesn't work out and is clearly simply a game mechanic limitation. Joker can summon a quasar that smacks his opponent, but because you can fight a different character 2m away in the same room after said battle, the aoe of the attack is < a room? "All enemies" is literally telling us it is multi target, it doesn't give us a limit.

Why do you keep ignoring the crux of my argument? Sure sora can try and rebuff, but then joker debuffs, rinse and repeat. Sora is at a disadvantage state in this scenario as he can't debuff joker. Joker can debuff, then hit him with an almighty through his reflega, and follow up again. Sora not has to worry about recasting, but any follow ups, and launching his own attack. Which is hampered by joker being able to breach his shields and lower his resistances and stats, while buffing his own. You have yet to explain how Sora overcomes these dynamics as well as Joker's better arsenal for a fight with this much crossover, besides saying Sora simply revives and rebuffs through anything/shrugs have having stuff like stats, and hax resistances lowered. Joker can also just also aim at taking out or controlling Sora's pets.

Ok? Joker can cancel his shield his shield as well. Sora has little options around Jokers, and can't dispel joker's shield. Another advantageous dynamic for Joker.

With almighty Joker can spirit/life drain, lower resistances to ailments, OHKO hax, and damage him regulalry through his shields. On top of nullifying his powers ups, having the reactions advantage, etc.

 

[HST_Master]

https://www.khwiki.com/Auto-Life

All the separate ways Auto Life can be applied sans D-Links and Clock Abilities. Sora already has it casted plus these other castings by Dream Eaters, Summons, and enemy cards.

Again never said that. I said that it can be used to save you from a gane over via doom, not canceling out the doom counter altogether.

And that multi target applies to enemies he's in combat for. Not enemies in the field. The same exact limit applies to Sora and his AoE attacks in Chain of Memories such as Meteor, Trinity Limit, and Mega Flare that targets "All Enemies" but doesn't affect those outside the battle in the field.

I'm not ignoring them. But to say Sora can't do anything while debuffed is quite faulty given that.

A. Sora can buff himself

B. His spirits can independently buff him.

C. He has several dream eaters that are comparable to him.

Sora doesn't have to focus soley on keeping himself buffed when his spirits can manage. And which Sora can use any spirit in the game so there's plenty for him to summon to assist him. Any "follow up" Akira does in trying to debuff his defenses to one shot either physically or magically is countered by SC/OM.

So Sora counters Jokers absorption with his own and having a resistance to it via the Turquoise March Heartless, can rebuff his stats to counter Jokers debuffs and have his spirits buff him for him so that he doesn't have to immediately worry about it, resistance to being silenced and power nulled with Power Null and Power Mimicry of his own to copy Jokers abilities, has the higher agility via Drive Forms and Flowmotion, and several ways to impede Jokers attacks(Which you have still not addressed given that Joker can do nothing against being Shrunk or Blinded) and the fact that he would have to use Almighty to get past Reflega. Along with several ways to cast Auto Life via Dream Eaters, Summons, passively activated and actively casting it.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

None of that proves how he can spam these things casually. Show me gameplay, because right now you essentially assume that Sora has all these things perfectly prep in order to counter Joker. And like I said joker can attack and neutralize the little things as well.


Yes and that is a game mechanic limitation and not a limit on Joker's AOE. The person whose standing 5 feet away is clearly in range of multiple of his attacks, the game just caps off encounters in bunches of 1-4 and sometimes more. But anyway we aren't going anywhere on this discussion, so assuming the several people mindhax range for joker, he can still amp that with a buff and debuff Sora.

It's going to help but it's not going to stop him from being debuffed, and not going to stop Joker from buffing and stacking his own buffs.

He isn't resisting an Almighty Absorption.

No. He can only copy what he's shown capable of copying. I already addressed Bind, and on the off chance he got shrunk that still doesn't take away his stats or hax, nor would it shrink his personas.

No, once again, Joker can just cast down his shields with shield dispells, along with hitting through via Almighty. Joker has so many ways to buff his stuff while also debuffing Sora, they overlap on most things, but almighty and his multiple ways of negating Sora, give Joker much better odds of winning.

 

[HST_Master]

This is a composite Sora. So how am I supposed to do that when there is no composite Sora gameplay? Composite Sora has everything from across his games including how he applies abilities. And when in the world could Joker stop Resurrection?

I've already went over this. This is essentially circular at this point.

Almighty is simply attacks that go past normal defenses like shields amd barriers. There's nothing special about Jokers absorption to not get resisted.

His power mimicry copies enemy skills even ones he can't normally use thay are enemy exclusive.

And I've already went over how Sora counters debuffs and no Mini decreases the enemies attack and defense and leaves them as small as a mouse(No not Mickey). At this point I'm just going to soldify my reasons because of how circular this is and how no new points are being brought up when it comes to debuffs.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

you are making positive claims about his abilities and therefore need to back it up. Revive is not something that can be spammed, and yet you claim it is an ever present counter to him getting killed multiple times in this thread. you have yet to substantiate your vision of Sora countering Joker with this outside of listing him having the ability (which is once again not spammable). It's not a reliable counter to OHKO's throughout the whole match.

It will bypass any shields that would otherwise protect him from the spells.

Ok? He still can only copy that of which is shown or reasonably assumed similar. Otherwise it's nlf.

No you haven't. You explained how he gets back to base from a debuff, and never explained how he gets out of the disadvantageous dynamic vs Joker.

What does that have to do with his persona? Plus if he has makarakarn active it can get sent right back at him.

 

[HST_Master]

Again it can be casted through several different manners. Saying he can use it only once when he has about 5 different ways to activate it is faulty. Which stack on top of each other for use thanks to him being able to apply it different ways. And again this is assuming Joker would just blindly spam something he sees is obviously not working as you are saying he would.

Bypassing Shields =/= Bypassing Absorption resistance.

How so? Jokers abilities are within the realm of possibility and he's able to use enemy abilities that he would literally have no access to otherwise. That's not a NLF. A NLF would be Sora going up against a 2-A with 2-A Fate Manip going "Sora copies gg". Alongside several of Jokers abilities only dealing with status effects and elements.

That's hard assuming that Sora would only get back to base after several buffs. Which is definitely not true. So plz tell me where you got that from? There's also Sora's Drives that put him at a higher stats already so no matter what when he's buffed he's not going to just break even. That's a big assumption on your part.


Sora literally has resistances to most of his own abilities. And unlike Reflect, Makarakarn is one use only. And I'm pretty sure that only comes with End Game Personas as the Persona that gives him this is level 74. This is a Mid-Game Joker which means he's limited to only what he can get mid game.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You are assuming that Sora has the lesirure to rely on his pets to revive him everytime he dies. They too have to be on the lookout for attacks, and can be frozen, mind attacked, etc. The one reliable one is the self cast, but to assume he can always just use it despite being pressed, despite Jokers's AOE, despite his Ohko's much more efficient than Doom Counter, is just wild.

He has soul absorption feats?

Not all of Joker's abilities? I never said sora can't copy any of his abilities. No reason for example to think he can copy almighty, unless there is some analog in the KH verse?

Uhhh, Sora buffs himself, Joker downgrades him. His summon buffs him Joker Downgrades him. Etc. Not to mention Jokers own buffs that won't be negated, adding to the gap. Not really an assumption when Joker can just keep debuffing him. Either way you splice it Sora won't be at full potential in the same manner he would without the debuffs, which is a dynamic in joker's favor.

Ok? That doesn't mean Sora's shield won't get cancelled?


The last argument is very weak.One should relatively be around level 30-45 during the palace, but that also depends on how much one grinds. Not even counting newgame+ or DLC Persona which can be bought at low levels. Especially weak due to the fact that Joker has multiple passive reflects which accomplish the same thing but only to certain elements depending on the set up and more importantly items that can also break shields.

It' also just false. You can get Makarakarn from Isis at level 32 and Mirror Break from lillith/queen Mab at level 46.

 

[HST_Master]

You do realize they work independently from him right? As in they aren't mindless animals but are competent to assist him accordingly. Your assumption is that they're equal to normal animals in intelligence. And no seeing as hiw they also have resistances and can buff themselves.

>AoE

AoE =/= AP. And Sora's range is planetary which is >>>>>>>>> Jokers.

>OHKO being more efficient

Proof? Because Mudo has a chance to fail. Doom kills if the countdown reaches Zero. And b4 "But you said Auto Life negates" It brings Sora back, it does not negate Doom.

Yes your assumptions are wild to assume that Sora is unable to summon or do anything supportive in the midst of combat which he does on a regular basis, especially when it's essentially 3-4 v 1.

"Soul Absorption" you mean magic absorption? Because yes.

So even though

>Sora buffs himself

>2-3 Dream Eaters at a time buff him

>Gets an overall stat boost in Drive Forms like Final Form

You're expecting me to believe thay Joker's debuffs would only make him break even? I'm not buying that in the least. For every debuff Sora gets potentially several other buffs. And again Sora's Dream Eaters are comparable to him.

>Weak Argument

That's literally mid game. This Joker is while he's in Futaba's palace, any further is counted as End Game. New game+ isn't taken into account.

That said I can admit I was wrong about Makarakarn. My point still stands however especially when Sora has several Elements that Joker doesn't. And you still haven't explained what he does while trapped in Gravity, stuck in Zero Gravity, and generally blinded. Sora's Dream Eaters can also invoke these abilities as well.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Nope, I never even made a claim on their intelligence so not sure why you are attacking that strawman. My point is they aren't just auto casting, they have to worry about the real time fight as well.

I never said AOE = DC. I'm talking about purely AOE. Although I guess since this is mid game joker he doesn't get his really good scaling outside of Futaba being able to maintain a star and city.

It's more efficient because Joker cast it, and the effects happen. Meaning he can use it more casually. You can get Thanatos at any time and he comes with his unique skill which is Almighty damage + medium chance to insta kill. Joker can kill two birds with one stone. And I think you mean 3-4 vs dozens, just 1 persona + joker at a time, and they both can fight as we see in the various arena games.

Chaining all of the stuff you claimed he could while getting smacked in a barrier war because he doesn't as good a means of tagging joker as joker does him? Yeah you never explained that part.

Can you elaborate on these buffs? I'd like to know more about what they specifically do. Because joker has stackable buffs, and can also stack his debuffs up to -3 with multiplicative values when used in tandem with seperate debuffs.

Endgame+ inclusion really doesn't even need to be for the reasons I already listed that you skipped over.

I actually did. Binding Joker doesn't stop his Persona from acting or rematerializing, same thing with gravity. He protects himself until the effect wears off, or simply gets his persona to help him. I love how you see the summons as so helpful but forget Joker has a slew of stands that can aid him in battle and materialize/rematerialize.

Joker has many more ways to win here.

> Reliable ways to damage Sora through barriers.

> Better Reactions and intuition reading from third eye.

> Buffs in addition to debuffs.

>OHKO's as a viable means of killing Sora much easier than he can kill him.

> Shield breaking, elemental/physical resistance breaking, in addition to mindhax resistance negation.

The rest is overlap outside of things like poison, blind, bind, and gravity stuff. Which are much less effective than OHKO's, Almighty, and slew of negations/hax that become more effective as joker can lower his resistance.

 

[HST_Master]

You claimed that that his Dream Eaters would be unreliable in supporting them which is blatantly false.

And no I mean 3-4 v 2. Sora canocially has dozens of Dream Eaters shown at the end of DDD. He usually uses up to 3 in battle at a time. Which is still an advantage on buffs. So guaranteed to kill with a countdown < Medium chance?

Chaining all of the stuff you claimed he could while getting smacked in a barrier war because he doesn't as good a means of tagging joker as joker does him? Yeah you never explained that part.

What are you even talking about? And on Sora's Buffs

His Spirits all come with Attack, Magic, and Defense boosts that can be stacked up to 3x. Along with things like Protect and Shell which increases Magic and Physical defense by 50%, and Spirit Roar which increases their Magic and Physical attacks by 50%. Sora himself can also put Shell and Protect on himself alongside magical boosts, there are specific Elemental Boosts that increase his resistance and Magic's attack by an uknown amount. This can be stacked up to 3 times for each element. He can apply these himself, with his Spirits and have them be naturally passive, the passive ones will buff him by 20%. Overdrive buffs his attack by an unknown amount, and he has several abilities that can buff him while low on health such as Berserk and Defender. He even has a buff that specifically enhances his projectiles such as raids and projectile applications of magic. There's also combo boost, that enhances his attacks with each strike. There's also his Drive Forms most notably Final Form which dramatically increases his stats and melee range and agility. Sora in general has a agility advantage via flight and Flowmotion/Drives. Alongside Attack Haste which can speed up his combat speed and Dash which increases his Movement speed.

>I actually did. Binding Joker doesn't stop his Persona from acting or rematerializing, same thing with gravity. He protects himself until the effect wears off, or simply gets his persona to help him. I love how you see the summons as so helpful but forget Joker has a slew of stands that can aid him in battle and materialize/rematerialize.

And what's stopping Sora or his spirits from using these affects on his Persona as well? The point of Zero Gravity, Blackout, and Gravity is that Joker can't protect himself in these conditions and time bomb essentially pulls a Kira and turns the opponent into a bomb. And unlike Mudo/Curse Manipulation this is guaranteed to work.

> Reliable ways to damage Sora through barriers.

Ignoring Sora has several ways to heal and his Almighty attacks aren't all One Hit GG.

> Better Reactions and intuition reading from third eye.


> Buffs in addition to debuffs.

Already explained several times at this point

>OHKO's as a viable means of killing Sora much easier than he can kill him.

Auto Life, and OHKO's flaws say otherwise.

> Shield breaking, elemental/physical resistance breaking, in addition to mindhax resistance negation.

Again look above.

You say I'm ignoring your points but you make baseless assumptions the entire time (Having only access to one version of Auto-Life, assuming that his Mindhax extends to field when it hasn't shown otherwise, assuming Joker would spam a move that failed to kill his opponent the 1st time. Assuming that despite Sora's buffs and drive forms, Jokers Debuffs would only let him break even when he would be objectively higher than the battle originated and that Joker and his Persona can withstand Poison Manipulation the whole match along with Sora's other hax despite no resistance to them). Alongside Warp Break which makes Sora's attacks have EE and Warp.

That said I'm going to bed. Have a good night.